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Old 2012-06-25, 19:26   Link #29321
Asuka0NK
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Ok because I was wondering about the Erika thing. Thanks for explaining it and yes it sounds ridiculous but at least it doesn't violate Knox. Now I have to go read Renall's. What page is it?
Another thing with him it is all
"The red don't agree with my theory well screw the red!"
"The Decalogue don't agree with my theory screw the decalouge!"
"Author already gave solution to the twilight......screw the author he's a liar!"
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Old 2012-06-25, 19:32   Link #29322
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I meant that in other words they used a couple of the 7 stakes; they are in fact ornamental letter openers (IIRC...).
Whoopsy daisy...I feel really stupid right now, I totally misunderstood what you said. I thought.....just forget it.

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Yes, a lot of hand waving is possible when Mr. Coverup (a.k.a. Genji) is involved.
He should really ask for a pay raise.

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He should since it's in red! I know he's aware that Erika in EP6 violates Knox's 1st and doesn't like it.
But regardless, he can go throwing his weight around, claiming he's discovered the real solution of Umineko and stuff..

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Now I have to go read Renall's. What page is it.
It's in the last two or three pages I think....Anyway, it's very close to the end of the thread so you won't have a difficulty finding it. It'll blow your mind away.
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Old 2012-06-25, 19:39   Link #29323
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I think the answer to that would be the fact that Kanon didn't start working in Rokenjima with another batch of servants as it happened with Yasu in the beggining or is implied that usually happened, but went by himself (it's clearly stated when Shannon cooks him up). Well, I guess that might cause some slight misunderstandings with new servants who were just at the Fukuin house, but those could be overcomed somehow (but I really believe it's just a slight carelessness on Ryukishi's part).

Other than that, I don't see why the other Fukuin servants would be aware of what the shift program was at the day of the conference or why the should be able to tell you which servants were there or not. After all, since servants come and go and stay just for two years, I don't think there was any servant working at Rokenjima who had any means of supsecting Kanon wasn't really at the Fukuin house. It's a little careless of Ryukishi as I said above, but not a total screwup that can't work no matter what.
Two things:
  • It doesn't matter if any given servant is not suspicious. If someone researching the matter gets suspicious and starts looking into Shannon and Kanon's backstories, what are they going to see? Remember, even if Yasu = Sayo = Shannon in Prime, Kanon just materializes out of thin air. There is no explanation for where he was in his younger years, no one who knew him, and no evidence of his parents ever existing. Shannon might have a dodgy or nonexistent birth record, but at least people have known her for many many years and would vouch that they've known her in contexts other than working (such as school; we know Yasu went to school, but how could she do that as Kanon too?).
  • Are there any males at Fukuin? As far as I know, every other Fukuin servant we've ever seen is female. And even if there are males, they apparently work for the Ushiromiyas in a much lesser quantity. Kanon would be under immediate scrutiny as an unusual servant just for being a young male Fukuin orphan who hadn't been working there all that long (relative to Shannon, whose presence might make sense since she's been working there for years and years).
Also, my Logic Error "solution" is here, in case you have signatures off.
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Old 2012-06-25, 20:04   Link #29324
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Oh my gosh that was so awesome but it fell apart in the end. It is the video you are talking about right? That was perfect I never thought about that everybody was in the cousin's room besides Kinzo and those in the next room over.
I don't think Shannon/Kanon go to school anymore. I think that was just something that Genji used to get Yasu out to socialize but it didn't really work out since we never hear if Yasu ever had any friends at school.
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Old 2012-06-25, 20:12   Link #29325
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Oh my gosh that was so awesome but it fell apart in the end. It is the video you are talking about right? That was perfect I never thought about that everybody was in the cousin's room besides Kinzo and those in the next room over.
It's supposed to fall apart at the end. That's the joke.

I don't think it was intentional that Ryukishi actually meant to define "everyone else" to mean "everyone not excluded from the location check," or at least that when Erika said "else" she meant "that isn't me." The rational argument is the one Bernkastel makes immediately, that Erika clearly knows her own location. Battler's counter-argument (it's her responsibility to make sure of that) and the notion that she lacks Detective Authority and thus can't know where she is unless she's told do sort of fly in the face of it, but I prefer to think of it as an unclear statement that was clearly intended not to refer to Erika and not to refer to anyone else in the universe.

Indeed, nothing really stops a canny witch from declaring that no universe exists except Rokkenjima, since this is a fictional story about a closed-off island. Perhaps nothing exists but empty sea infinitely in all directions around the island?
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Old 2012-06-25, 20:16   Link #29326
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Whoopsy daisy...I feel really stupid right now, I totally misunderstood what you said. I thought.....just forget it.
Well, they really are nevertheless quite implausible as weapons. A martial artist, especially, wouldn't waste their time trying to fight someone with a letter opener; George would be far more effective fighting bare-handed. And to the forehead? Seriously? That's the single hardest place in a person's body to stab!
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Old 2012-06-25, 20:18   Link #29327
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1. Battler returns in 1985: Shannon hasn't bonded with George enough. She would probably have given up "Shannon" and "Kanon" for Battler, leading to probably a negative reaction from at least George, as Jessica had not really decided on "being interested in Kanon" yet.
She is already in possession of the gold and...
Well, my problem with this part is that Yasu has no plan as of October 1985. If Battler came back THAT year, I can't imagine anything but alot of awkward blushing and shameless rom-com antics.

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What's bothering me right now is, what was actually meant with "Battler returning 1 year later"? Because it was made pretty clear that 1986 would be the last family conference for many reasons, even without Battler's immediate presence.
Okay, this means that there would be no explosion without Battler. But does that also mean that nobody solved the epitaph without Battlers presence? This would pretty much imply that it was him who solved it, wouldn't it?! Okay...there was n Beatrice mystery game if Battler didn't return so nobody felt pressured to solve it...but still Kinzô's death would have been known and there would be no further need for any family conferences.
Well, it means exactly what it says - Battler returns to the family in 1987. Battler's presence may be necessary for the epitaph to be solved (Beatrice won't prompt them to do so, otherwise), but we're shown in no uncertain terms that he's the only person who CAN solve it. Even in End he'd had more than one person helping him and Gary Stu implants.
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I think Ryűkishi actually meant to imply that the whole family was in the exact sense of the word not only broke, but in terrible debts.
Hmm. Yeah, I guess that does make more sense.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
unless they used the service door to the underground which was hinted to exist somewhere. And that would mean they didn't actually solve the epitaph?
I wonder...
There was a service door implied? Where?
All I remember was the implication from End that one MIGHT stumble upon the entrance near the chapel by mistake, though it would be unlikely.

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Yeah, I'm sorry, but once you start arguing about religion you become nothing but a douche just trying to pick a fight.
WELL. I wouldn't say that. There are very often discussions ... that should be had. It really depends on what you're trying to say and how you're trying to say it.

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It may just be me misinterpretting the EP7 scenes, but maybe Shannon also was someone separate from Yasu who Yasu wanted to be like. If Shannon graduated with Renon's group and Yasu turned out to be a *very* great master of disguise, then it would have went something like "I thought you left Shannon." "Oh no." As far as "Yasu" goes, she never really was thought of much. She might not have even been missed.

On the other hand, we also know that "Yoshiya" was made up. I don't quite know what the name means, but is it possible that "Sayo" is just as made up?
Aura and Wanderer are on the money. Yasu never disappeared, she just accepted "being Shannon" much more fully over time. On top of the fact that 'Shannon' is never acknowledged by other people in the earliest flashbacks, I think the fact that there was another servant by the same name would have been noted by several people, since the "sacred name" is a big thing for the Fukuin kids.

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...But this sort of makes me wonder how stupid everyone can possibly be. I mean, surely Kanon wasn't a thing that was actually going on in real life that anybody credible among the servants believed.
It's hard to say, because though it's implied by the goats in EP8, "Kanon is an ILLUSION!" is immediately followed by "Shannon is an ILLUSION". It's such a huge, OBVIOUS problem, that I'm perfectly willing to say that everything we currently have regarding the character of 'Kanon' is the single biggest problem with Umineko. Even over the pacing issues and questionable morals, 'cause I plowed through the first and begrudgingly accepted that the latter won't change.

Kanon, though, just doesn't make sense. You can kinda tell, in EP7, when the plot just goes "Kanon? Oh ... yeah, don't think about him."
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Old 2012-06-25, 20:34   Link #29328
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I think the reason we don't see anything about Kanon is because it isn't needed to solve the murder. Is it necessary to know about Kanon to solve the mystery no but it does add an extra layer to Yasu's character and obviously Kanon led to Yasu seeing herself as inhuman. So Kanon to me is the physical form of Yasu's self-hatred.
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Old 2012-06-25, 20:46   Link #29329
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I think the reason we don't see anything about Kanon is because it isn't needed to solve the murder. Is it necessary to know about Kanon to solve the mystery no but it does add an extra layer to Yasu's character and obviously Kanon led to Yasu seeing herself as inhuman. So Kanon to me is the physical form of Yasu's self-hatred.
Yeah but this is the problem with Kanon narratively. He exists solely as a gimmick at worst and as an explanatory aspect of Yasu's personality at best. He may have been seen all of one time ever by anyone off Rokkenjima. But he's in the stories and he's prominently featured. So one of two things is gonna happen with him: Either he's going to turn out to have existed in Prime somehow but his existence is sketchy and suspicious (meaning it's a sign something's up with him in-story too), or he's going to turn out to have never existed in Prime and be even more suspicious.

He's underdeveloped to the point that there's no way you couldn't immediately find him suspect if you were an outside observer.
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Old 2012-06-25, 21:42   Link #29330
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He's underdeveloped to the point that there's no way you couldn't immediately find him suspect if you were an outside observer.
Sure, but if your only source of information about him is a pair of stories that are already discredited, there's not very many places you can take that suspicion, especially if Eva refused to confirm whether he was present or not. With the other suspects, a Witch Hunter could investigate their background and somehow come up with a theory about how and why they would commit a serial murder, so it would be comparatively less productive and fun to push Kanon as the culprit. The Witch Hunters might even think: "This person doesn't exist in reality, so he must have been put in the stories as a distraction. The real culprit is someone else."
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Old 2012-06-25, 21:55   Link #29331
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Sure, but if your only source of information about him is a pair of stories that are already discredited, there's not very many places you can take that suspicion, especially if Eva refused to confirm whether he was present or not. With the other suspects, a Witch Hunter could investigate their background and somehow come up with a theory about how and why they would commit a serial murder, so it would be comparatively less productive and fun to push Kanon as the culprit. The Witch Hunters might even think: "This person doesn't exist in reality, so he must have been put in the stories as a distraction. The real culprit is someone else."
Sure, I just mean that becomes an obvious standout in the story to anyone who exists in Prime, but not to us. Because we're not in the Prime universe, and we can't easily confirm that Kanon wasn't really a person (or was a very suspicious person with strangely little info about him existing in the world).

This is, I think, kind of an issue with the writing. It's manipulation of information to the audience that the in-universe audience isn't dealing with. They would know this, but we're misled into assuming Kanon was some kind of real person because no suspicion is raised about him in non-1986 segments that reasonably should be. Even if we're supposed to be following along from the perspective of Battler/Toya somehow, and he doesn't know this for whatever reason, he could find it out very easily. So him not doing so is just kind of odd.

It's not some fatal flaw or anything, but it's kind of sloppy.
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Old 2012-06-26, 00:40   Link #29332
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Sure, but if your only source of information about him is a pair of stories that are already discredited, there's not very many places you can take that suspicion, especially if Eva refused to confirm whether he was present or not. With the other suspects, a Witch Hunter could investigate their background and somehow come up with a theory about how and why they would commit a serial murder, so it would be comparatively less productive and fun to push Kanon as the culprit. The Witch Hunters might even think: "This person doesn't exist in reality, so he must have been put in the stories as a distraction. The real culprit is someone else."
I suppose that's possible, but we aren't shown, except by that one goat's line in EP8, that Kanon was being discounted in any way. And while 'Shkanon' shenanigans are never strictly necessary for any of the EP1-4 murders, I think his presence and acknowledgement by every other character has to be accounted for.

Especially if we start getting into issues in the sphere of Erika and her meta-trolling.
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Old 2012-06-26, 02:03   Link #29333
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There was a service door implied? Where?
All I remember was the implication from End that one MIGHT stumble upon the entrance near the chapel by mistake, though it would be unlikely.
We don't even know how that door is made, hell we don't even know if it's actually a door rather than a trap door, since there was no mention of any building (and a building would be hard to hide). At any rate the door is supposed to be locked and impossible to open unless you solve the complicated mechanism of the chapel.

As for the implied service door:

Quote:
`......Also, take this key."

`"......What is this?"`\

`"It is a key to the underground VIP room. If you use this, you won't need to use the more complicated device."
Thi is said By Genji after Kinzo dies in front of Beatrice in EP7.

Well you could argue that it's the same door... anyway the important part is that you don't need to move the golden letters everytime to go to the underground.


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Yeah but this is the problem with Kanon narratively. He exists solely as a gimmick at worst and as an explanatory aspect of Yasu's personality at best. He may have been seen all of one time ever by anyone off Rokkenjima. But he's in the stories and he's prominently featured. So one of two things is gonna happen with him: Either he's going to turn out to have existed in Prime somehow but his existence is sketchy and suspicious (meaning it's a sign something's up with him in-story too), or he's going to turn out to have never existed in Prime and be even more suspicious.

He's underdeveloped to the point that there's no way you couldn't immediately find him suspect if you were an outside observer.
Frankly at this point I can only assume that "the servant Kanon" doesn't exist in prime, or at least he's never been a regularly hired fukuin servant.

There's an interesting bit in EP8 where the goats claim that Kanon doesn't exist. Jessica "defeats" them by saying that there are people who saw Kanon at the school's culture festival.
This tells us that in prime Jessica actually made Yasu pose as her boyfriend. But this also tells us that if this is the best she could do to prove Kanon's existence, then I guess there really isn't anything else.

There must be an official list of the victims who went missing in the Rokkenjima Incident, and obviously neither "Shannon" nor "Kanon" are in it. But there should be the name of the young maid who attended school for years in Niijima (probably Sayo Yasuda), and that people can testify was named Shannon.
Kawabata for example, there's just no way he doesn't know her. He supposedly ferried her back and forth from Rokkenjima to Niijima and viceversa for years on an almost daily basis.
The complete lack of interest in Shannon, Kanon and Yasu from Ange's part in 1998 is absolutely appaling and can only be explained by narrative manipulation.


At any rate it is almost inevitable to conclude that for everyone from outside the catbox Kanon is someone that isn't supposed to exist in those stories.


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This is, I think, kind of an issue with the writing. It's manipulation of information to the audience that the in-universe audience isn't dealing with. They would know this, but we're misled into assuming Kanon was some kind of real person because no suspicion is raised about him in non-1986 segments that reasonably should be. Even if we're supposed to be following along from the perspective of Battler/Toya somehow, and he doesn't know this for whatever reason, he could find it out very easily. So him not doing so is just kind of odd.

It's not some fatal flaw or anything, but it's kind of sloppy.
I don't think this is a flaw per se. Strategic cuts in the exposition, distorted perspective and such are pretty common. Movies like "the sixth sense", "the others", "fight club" and so on made use of selective expositions to what the characters are going through, because it would be pretty easy to spot what's going on if you saw them in those parts of their everyday "life" that couldn't have an ambiguous interpretation

But what really bothers me about this is that it defies the only justification (which is still weak imo) for not telling the readers what's going on: "In the story people will never know what happened, so you won't either, it's a catbox". But there's a lot of stuff, including this important bit, that is actually common knowledge in prime and Ryuukishi still doesn't explain it years after the end of the story. In others words he makes a mystery out of something that in the story itself isn't a mystery at all.
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Old 2012-06-26, 05:47   Link #29334
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Kawabata for example, there's just no way he doesn't know her. He supposedly ferried her back and forth from Rokkenjima to Niijima and viceversa for years on an almost daily basis.
I agree, that could've been so easy... it's frustrating.

------

I'm not sure if someone had already said this during the discussions about Yasu's gender, but - I was wondering, why is it even a mystery? Doesn't she HAVE to be a girl obviously?
After all, Genji hid the fact she's alive from Kinzo because he thought Kinzo might treat Yasu as Beatrice and make his 'incest sin' again... If Yasu was a boy, that fear wouldn't be relevant. (unless Kinzo is bisexual and we didn't know.. lol)
which means she has to be a girl, otherwise Genji would let Kinzo know about his child being alive.
Then why do people think there's still a chance Yasu might be a male?
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Old 2012-06-26, 08:22   Link #29335
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Because it's ambiguous. If she were unambiguously female, there's no reason not to just say so. Same is true if she were unambiguously male, of course. We just don't know, and apparently not knowing is somehow important to Yasu's self-image problems.

I think the issue may well be that Yasu doesn't know and hadn't gotten a straight answer from Genji or Nanjo (at least, perhaps, before the scene referenced in the "guts sequence"). And perhaps Battler and Ange don't know either. So the self-image is ambiguous, and we'll never really know. But it's apparently not 100% expected; either Yasu is a maimed male or female, or transgendered, or not the same sex as the gender she was raised, or uncomfortable with whatever body she does have, or is malformed or hermaphroditic or something uncommon. Something along those lines. Something isn't clicking between the way Yasu understands her own body and what she ideally thinks her body should be like. It's possible there's nothing wrong and she's paranoid and lies and misdirection have messed with her head. But more likely she has some legitimate problem with her self-image that she feels renders her body incapable of love. The ambiguity suggests it relates to her gender image, or to her biological sex conflicting with that somehow, or to something being done to her that changed either her gender self-image or her physical sex, without her consent or approval or apparently even knowledge.

Also let's not put past Kinzo anything regardless of the sex of his supposed child (if indeed Yasu even is that child, if that child even existed). Genji thinks he's insane enough to do something, maybe he just thinks he's insane to the point that the appearance and equipment of the child don't matter. Besides, Genji has other legitimate reasons to hide such a child if one exists.
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Old 2012-06-26, 08:57   Link #29336
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After all, Genji hid the fact she's alive from Kinzo because he thought Kinzo might treat Yasu as Beatrice and make his 'incest sin' again... If Yasu was a boy, that fear wouldn't be relevant.
Assuming Yasu really is the baby from the cliff, remember there's another person that Genji needs to hide Yasu's identity from.
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Old 2012-06-26, 09:13   Link #29337
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Assuming Yasu really is the baby from the cliff, remember there's another person that Genji needs to hide Yasu's identity from.
That, and the whole affair is just good common sense. If Yasu really is a secret fifth child, he/she is largely defenseless against her older and better-entrenched siblings. If said child really was special to Kinzo, and Genji is trying to do what Kinzo would have wanted if Kinzo were in appropriate position to do it himself (i.e. not crazy, assuming he is), then protecting the child's identity is just a good idea in general until he or she is old enough to stand on even footing with the others in any sort of inheritance matter.

You wouldn't want to announce "By the way, we saved your secret brother/sister's life, and incidentally he/she owns Kinzo's gold" back in the late 60s. Because the first question on the siblings' minds would be "Wait, what brother/sister?" followed immediately by "Wait, what gold?" I can't imagine Yasu/Lion would've had a very good life without some protection of that sort.

We actually see that in ep7, where Lion's been passed off as Krauss and Natsuhi's first child. Krauss goes along with it because he gets all the perks from it: His family becomes the main branch as far as the law and society knows (which is prestigious), his firstborn becomes the head of the family (again, prestigious), and he gets to manage the finances of the group until Lion is of age (which means he has control of the finances and thus control over the family). It's a pretty damn good deal for Krauss in that situation, so it's incentive to go along with the Lion thing even if he knows it's not really his child. Nobody else has to know that, so why not go with it? As far as the rest of the world sees it, he's raised a brilliant child who is competent and likeable; he has every incentive to protect that image to make himself look good and he and Natsuhi look like perfect parents.

Now imagine Lion's existence without that safety net. It would not be entirely pleasant for him/her, as all the parents would be trying to screw him/her over financially and there'd be little to be done about it.
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Old 2012-06-26, 09:52   Link #29338
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I think it would have been much better had Genji taken a different tactic. If he had adopted Yasu himself (from Fukuin, after a suitable gap) or claimed she was his daughter, she would probably not have had to work as a servant from such a terribly young age, and would still have been able to spend time on the island or perhaps live there. Genji's the head servant and Kinzo's old friend, and Kinzo would probably allow him to have his child visit/live on the island if he requested it. Even if Yasu did start to work as a servant some of the time while still a little kid, she would have had some better protection from being Genji's child. And she would have had a parent of her own.

Of course, that would only have worked if Genji was willing to take on a role as a parent, which I doubt he was. The man's got some of the skimpiest characterisation in the whole series.
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Old 2012-06-26, 10:20   Link #29339
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Of course that's assuming Yasu isn't Genji's child to begin with...

...is what I'd say could be a cool revelation if Genji had any character development whatsoever, let alone any that supports such a notion.
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Old 2012-06-26, 10:37   Link #29340
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The only thing we ever get from Genji is the fact that he seems to be the only character that actually goes insane. If I'm remembering right Ryukishi said that the gold butterflies are more just showing that someone has gone insane such as the cousins do in Ep 1 because as I recall the gold butterflies appeared before 12:00 AM after Natsuhi was killed.
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