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Old 2005-12-26, 18:45   Link #81
NoSanninWa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
I truley don't understand the whole H.264 craze that's going on right now...Perhaps it makes encoder's jobs easier, but as a veiwer I much rather xvid/divx decodable projects...Let me be the one to choose if I want to use ffdshow all the time(which I don't hate, but I'm not a huge fan of ffdshow)...Higher quality 230+mbs DVD rips look pretty good with it, but 200 and under fansubs look superior in divx format IMO...I just don't see the HUGE advantage...Lower sized fansubs should stick with divx I think...and don't get me started on CCCP that would be kissing ffdshow's ring if it was the "God-father"...
Before anyone here says anything mean to you, let me explain something. The h.264 craze has nothing to do with making an encoder's job easier. Actually, from what I know it seems to make encoding a bit harder. If you do it right. The reason for the h.264 craze is the dual edged sword of quality and filesize.

You seem to have limited exposure to well done h.264 encodes. You at least recognize the video quality that it is capable of, but I suspect that you just haven't downloaded the right videos to see how small they can make a file without losing much quality. 200 and under fansubs certainly do not look better in XviD. If you think this, then you just haven't seen it used properly. For a wonderful example, try downloading any of the later episodes of Pretty Cure. You can find both h264 and XviD versions for episodes 41-49 made by the same encoder from the same DVD source. The XviD version is about 220MB, while the h264 version is only 140MB. Once you've compared these, you'll see the power of h264. Those are 140 MB files that you are watching! Can you say, with a straight face, that XviD can approach that quality at that size?
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Old 2005-12-26, 18:46   Link #82
Eeknay
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First, you do have a choice for now. Many groups are putting out xvid AND h264 versions. The majority of groups haven't even woken up yet and are still using xvid (also, does anyone even use divx in the fansub world? Besides raws, I mean). As for fansubs looking better/worse... to be honest the only h264 fansubs besides PC I've watched is Eclipse's Shana and I didn't have an xvid to compare it with, so I'm not going to comment there.

However I think you're completely wrong when it comes to the lower size argument. h264 is clearly the victor in that department. It gives the same (if not better) quality at lower sizes - helps the leecher, helps the distros, and videophiles don't complain.

As for CCCP, I'm not sure what your point is.

EDIT: beaten by NoSanninWa. If I may say so myself, the h264 versions of PC are a great example of teh powah. I'd go for the h264 over the xvid anyday (completely biased since I love h264 and I encode PC, but watchagonnado).
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Old 2005-12-26, 18:56   Link #83
Draneor
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I figured I’d run a few tests just for fun. First off, let me disclaim that I know absolutely nothing about encoding and very little about codecs. Since I’m an editor by trade, I'm hoping that an outsider’s perspective might be useful to this thread. Anyway, here are the specs for my system:

733 PIII, 512 Memory, and a Geforce4 MX 420 for my graphic’s card.
As for codecs, I use Haali Media Spliter (Oct 11) and Ffdshow (installed 11/04/2005).

After restarting my computer, I turned off everything except “explorer.exe.” In past experiments, I had yet to be able to play a h.264 encode. My hypothesis was that it would be no different with Froth-Bite’s Itsudatte My Santa. The following are my results:

VLC 0.8.2: I got a pink screen and audio. Within 8 seconds, the program crashed.
Mplayer (installed 8/02): Crashed upon loading.
MPC 6.4.8.5: It would play but the subtitles were 2 seconds (and gaining) behind the audio and video. 97% CPU usage.
VLC 0.8.4: The video would play normally—both windowed and full screened. It would crash when I attempted to fast-forward, but otherwise it worked fine. 75-90% CPU usage.

After resuming my normal, multitasking activities, I once again tried VLC 0.8.4 and I got the same result. Just to be evil, I attempted to send it to my television, which I use for a second monitor. Strangely enough, it worked. I say this is strange because most non-xvid encodes will not work.

In conclusion, I was able to successfully play a h.264 file on an old and slow system by switching to VLC 0.8.4. Disabling non-critical processes wasn’t even necessary for my computer to play the file. I don’t quite understand the reason, but I can only suspect that the new version uses less of my precious CPU.

Last edited by Draneor; 2005-12-26 at 21:34.
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Old 2005-12-26, 19:19   Link #84
wingdarkness
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Well i guess i mean divx 5.21 and not xvid...I'm aware how old xvid stuff is...So replace everything i said with divx 5.21 filters if xvid isn't condusive...

Well NSW I have watched the new Bleach fansubs in h.264 and I perfer my Divx decodable versions...I watched FMP Fumofuu in h.264 and couldn't bare it until I found some divx decodable ones, but these weren't rips and the divx ones were...Now DVD rips like Overman King Gainer look great in h.264 (I admit only zoom player makes alot of my h.264 rips run with out a hitch), even the new One Piece eps I've seen in h.264 impressed me....But lower sized fansubs under 200 look bad without divx to me, i'm sorry and i watch all the popular titles like Bleach, naruto, One piece, Gundam, etc, etc...Right now i'm watching Magical shopping Abenboshi and there are eps that are 120mbs and they still look great and are divx decodable...So maybe some encoders are just better than others, i don't know...But I do know that when I have a choice I always pick the non h.264 version...Maybe i'm living in bizzarro-world, but i cannot stress enuff how bad some fansubs look without the use of divx filters, namely FILM EFFECT...I mean unwatchable and i'm talking Bleach, naruto, etc, etc... I do admit though High-quality 230+DVD rips look great with h.264 and especially divx to me...

Eeknay - Oh we must not watch the same anime because I have countless encodes of recent fansubs that are divx decodable and only have seen a few new ones with h.264 like Bleach...

As for CCCP which isn't bad, it's just not for me because it prioritizes ffdshow in all your players...Now since I've been FORCED to use ffdshow i'm finding out it's better than what i gave it credit for at first, but like I said I perfer a choice...I hate to "Have to" use it with no alternative...No h.264 stuff I've ever dl has allowed me to use divx filters with it...

Also no reason for anyone to get mad at me NSW I'm not dissing anyone and totally respect those in the fansubbing community that makes watching my favorite shows possible, but this debate is what makes the community stronger, not everyone likes the change unilaterally...This isn't a communist nation, this is just my opinions, if there not agreeable sobeit...
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Old 2005-12-26, 19:29   Link #85
Eeknay
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EDIT: Ok I read closer, and you're applying divx filters to anime which you've downloaded, which isn't a fair test at all. Also, of course fansubs look bad. They're re-compressed files of already lossy raws. It's only within the past six to eight months that some fairly nice looking fansubs have been able to happen due to very good raws (or maybe that's just me picking up on it. I haven't exactly worked with a lot of tv raws, so other encoders feel free to pwn me)..

I think you're looking for too much when it comes to fansubs. Sounds like you've been spoilt by DVD rips. Let me tell you right now, garbage in, garbage out.
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Old 2005-12-26, 19:40   Link #86
wingdarkness
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I'm implying that fansubs under 200mbs (most of them) are nearly unwatchable to me if I don't use divx film effect to texturize the picture abit...Now ffdshow allows you to use a similiar effect by adjusting the noise feature (it's close but not quite the same), but on lower sized h.264 (or even non h.264 subs that don't allow divx decoding which is rare) fansubs it's not as good...On DVD quality big-sized files it's great, but it's fansubs that aren't as visually pleasent...But once again I understand the hard-work of those that release fansubs and would be a fool not to appreciate their efforts...
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Old 2005-12-26, 19:42   Link #87
Eeknay
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Plz to be posting comparison picture of fansub with and without film effect.
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Old 2005-12-26, 19:46   Link #88
wingdarkness
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Lmao...Ya see that's the thing...still images don't do it justice because as a still image it just looks like a picture with an emboss, but when your watching it animated it adds what seems to be a coat of digital texture to the animation, which makes elements in the anime easily discernable (especially in anime with alot of diverse colors and action sequences)...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeknay
EDIT: Ok I read closer, and you're applying divx filters to anime which you've downloaded, which isn't a fair test at all. Also, of course fansubs look bad.

I think you're looking for too much when it comes to fansubs. Sounds like you've been spoilt by DVD rips. Let me tell you right now, garbage in, garbage out.
And that's what i'm saying without the use of this filter I can't improve the veiwing experience and h.264 encodes don't allow me to use the filter that I believe is the best at enhancing the visual experience of fansubs (you see)...Also I guess anyone would be a bit spoiled by DVD ripped anime encodes that are good...
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Old 2005-12-26, 19:57   Link #89
Eeknay
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Without seeing the effect in question I can't really say anything further. I'll try doing a few searches, but I haven't seen anything related to anime.

I guess I'll ask you this though; taking the film effect out of the question (i.e. WYSIWYG), would you get the xvid or h264?
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Old 2005-12-26, 20:08   Link #90
wingdarkness
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If Film Effect didn't exist either would be acceptable I guess...There wouldn't be much difference I think...Since h264 seems to make leeching less time-consuming by decreasing file-sizes, but not overall quality it would probably have the edge...Yeah h264 would most likley be my choice...

It's really simple for you to try it out for yourself, just dl divx 5.21 decoder filter and watch, hmm, say...I don't know... and episode of dattebayo Bleach...and watch it with and without the use of the film effect (which has a cursor for different levels of the actual effect)...Then you tell me...

Another thing I like about Divx filter over ffdshow is that you can actually use the divx color bar and the Bs player//Core Player//zoom player, etc --color bar with one another for optimum pleasure...with MPC you can only use ffdshow's color bar which suprisingly isn't as good as i thought it would be...Sometimes simplier is better IMO...
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Old 2005-12-26, 20:20   Link #91
Eeknay
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I'd rather not install divx. However I did turn on "noise" in ffdshow which you said was similar. God it looks awful. I can't stand that effect after only two seconds.

I can't begin to imagine what the film effect would do.
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Old 2005-12-26, 20:50   Link #92
wingdarkness
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Did you watch a lower-size, not great looking fansub?? If not you fail...

I just don't get it, that effect (even the one on ffdshow version) makes "crappy happy"...It almost looks like your watching a movie reel episode...But opinions vary...Just like I can't understand how you could think it sucks, you can't understand how I can't watch alot of stuff without it..It is what it is...But just for the sake of completing this argument the divx effect is better--has more of a digital look to it than a movie-reel look (which ffdshow has)...If your really insane watch something in B&W and use the ffdshow noise, dust particle, and spots effect and it'll look like your watching an old movie from the 40's ....
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Old 2005-12-26, 21:01   Link #93
Eeknay
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Haha, yes I did watch a low size fansub. Be kinda pointless otherwise. The effect completely fuglifies still scenes. Completely unwatchable. I agree that it does mask *some* blocking and stepping however it is not the Holy Grail of which you speak. In small quantities I could understand why someone would use it, but the tweaking (and probably on a per episode basis too) isn't worth it.

Besides, while most fansubs are kinda eh nowadays, most are also ok without any kind of pp.
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Old 2005-12-26, 21:01   Link #94
Jekyll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draneor
Mplayer: Crashed upon loading.
Was this by any chance 1.0pre7try2 or earlier? I have not seen a CVS build crash on a correct H.264 file in quite some time, at least with the Linux version.
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Old 2005-12-26, 21:05   Link #95
ArchMageZeratuL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
But just for the sake of completing this argument the divx effect is better--has more of a digital look to it than a movie-reel look (which ffdshow has)...
While I respect your preference, and can even understand you liking film effect, I must complain about something: it doesn't matter how better it looks to you, that DOES NOT look any "digital" at all. Digital sources are clear, with no noise or grain at all. Those are all analogue artifacts. If you want to see what a perfect digital image looks like, just look at some vectorial image, e.g.:

http://www.pbhb.com/wallpaper/champloo.png

As you can see, it's perfectly plain. So all I ask is that you stop saying that it looks digital with film effect.

(You should also keep in mind that most people preffer to have Film Effect disabled)
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Old 2005-12-26, 21:18   Link #96
wingdarkness
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Have you ever watched like a basketball game...or perhaps have you ever watched cable television thru a video-card on a flat-screen monitor? The picture has what seems to be a haze or pixeled-coat that you don't see when watching it on regular TV... By "digital" i mean it puts a pixelated-like effect that makes all the textures discearnable...pixel effects in this case seem to be digital hence a "coat of digital"...It almost looks like liqued sometimes...The picture of Mugen you just showed me just looks crisp and clean...I think me saying it adds a "coat of digital" to most lower-sized fansubs is accurate...But I do hear where your coming from...Of the many times I've had this debate, including with The Fluff and others not once has someone told me not to say that or disagreed with that assessment..

Ultimatley as long as you know what I mean I consider that tangent enuff ^^
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Old 2005-12-26, 21:22   Link #97
Draneor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll
Was this by any chance 1.0pre7try2 or earlier? I have not seen a CVS build crash on a correct H.264 file in quite some time, at least with the Linux version.
Sorry, I don't know the version and I can't seem to figure out how to find it either. I do know that I installed it back on August 02, 2005, if that helps at all. Considering it was rather old, you're probably right about the reason it crashed and I should have thought of that. Anyway, I updated Mplayer and here's the result:


Mplayer Latest Version: Works fine. CPU usage of 95-98%.

It seems that watching H.264 encodes is no longer impossible for those of us with P-IIIs. I haven't tested CCCP or the latest version of Ffdshow, but I do now know that both the latest Mplayer and VLC work for me, whereas five months ago nothing worked.

Last edited by Draneor; 2005-12-26 at 21:35.
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Old 2005-12-26, 21:23   Link #98
ArchMageZeratuL
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I believe that you're talking about the artifacts in TV/cable broadcasts that are not seen in a TV, but seen in a computer monitor? That's because they operate differently, televisions are good at hiding flaws. That's, however, not related to it being digital or not.

The term itself should be self-explanatory: "film" effect reffers to effect visible in Film, an analog medium. It's not present in 100% digital transfers.

[EDIT] BTW, yes, I am a nitpicker, definitely more so than TheFluff. I'm also known for bitching when someone mixes Ogg with Vorbis. :P
But I don't mean to insult you or anything, just a friendly correction. Take it however you want.
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Old 2005-12-26, 21:33   Link #99
wingdarkness
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Lol...I'm telling you watching the fansub without it is what seems analog ...But it appears by pure definition you have gotten me...So I guess by saying pixelated effect I'm wrong too, yet that's what it does...And I'll be damned if it doesn't seem to be digital...But you win this point apparently...
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Old 2005-12-26, 23:43   Link #100
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AHAHAHA, MR FILM EFFECT IS BACK!
Ahem. We've had this flamew^H^H^H^H^H^Hdebate several times before, without any results. Mr. Film Effect likes his film effect and won't give it up. To give you other people an idea about what this magic pixie dust looks like...
Spoiler for crisp digital quality:

That's the DivX film grain effect at highest strength. Calling it "film effect" is inappropriate, really, since all it does is add noise (and lots of it at high strengths). Normally, most encoders hate noise more than they hate raw cappers who doesn't know one end of a MPEG decoder from the other, so this obsession with noise is a good way to make them either very annoyed or very amused. However, wingdarkness is the ONLY person I've ever met on the intarwebs that actually LIKES this noise effect... everyone else seems to think it's something that should be killed with fire. I thought that teaching him to use ffdshow's noise filter would make him go away, but nooo, he want's DivX's film grain and nothing else, without it he can't watch anime.

BTW, the reason it seems "digital" is because the NOISE is digital. Go figure.


As for VLC: It seems that Windows' process accounting is tricked by VLC in some way. Might have something to do with multi-threading... or maybe it's a rootkit, part of an Evil Plan to Take Over the World (tm).
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

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