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Old 2012-06-27, 03:59   Link #29361
LaplaceNoMa
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I need to replay this scene. If I recall correctly, there was red clearly stating that Battler is inside the room after Erika entered.
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Old 2012-06-27, 04:07   Link #29362
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Shannon then became Kanon (for absolutely no apparent reason), he ran to the room where Battler was supposed to be dead (still for absolutely no apparent reason). He switched place with Battler (still for absoluely no apparent reason, since then Erika would still find someone inside the closet), and then finally stopped being Kanon by becoming Beatrice or Shannon.
I'd have to agree that the biggest flaw of EP6 is many things happening in the game board for no apparent reason at all. Well, actually, from the point of the logic error onward, the only reason things are happening is just so that the logic may work, I don't think it was meant to have any actual game board story to go with the fantasy scenes, which is kind of disappointing.

(Then again, I personally didn't mind it at all when reading EP6, since it had me at the edge of my seat in many points, so I had no time to fret over things like that.)
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Old 2012-06-27, 04:22   Link #29363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
I need to replay this scene. If I recall correctly, there was red clearly stating that Battler is inside the room after Erika entered.
The only thing that clearly states that Battler logically HAS to be in the room is:
Because the guest room was sealed at the time of Battler's autopsy it was absolutely impossible to enter or leave the room until I came back again and broke the seal myself. That is why it is definite that Battler had to be hiding in the guestroom when I entered. Battler's chance for escape was only after I broke the seal. To limit it further, except the moment when I was in the bathroom there is no chance for escape.

The problem here is that two argumentative planes interact with each other. The plane of the narrative where these things actually happen and the theoretical plain where these are only concepts. It actually never clearly states that Battler even was in the room when she sealed it, only that she sealed it after his autopsy and that he is destined to be in the room therefore.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I'd have to agree that the biggest flaw of EP6 is many things happening in the game board for no apparent reason at all. Well, actually, from the point of the logic error onward, the only reason things are happening is just so that the logic may work, I don't think it was meant to have any actual game board story to go with the fantasy scenes, which is kind of disappointing.
Well, mostly all of Chiru is just a giant exercise in how the logic of the games is supposed to work...none of them had any actually functioning story to them that lead anywhere specific. EP5 was a giant troll to show how badly the minor characters understood Beatrice's game, EP6 was to show how intricate the system actually is and what it allows (mainly using "empty spaces"), EP7 was a giant mash-up to ensure the best possible chances to collect evidence and EP8...was a final battle for the perfect solution with everything the gameboard allowed (like Virgilia once said...scribbling all over the board even though it's kinda rude).
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Old 2012-06-27, 06:17   Link #29364
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although that herring was almost screaming 'FAKE'
I had the same problem, it's my biggest issue with the whole Kyrie Rudolf culprit theory. Yes it makes sense with Angie and Eva, and maybe Ange's reaction, but if it was the whole truth (I am not saying they weren't in some way guilty) then why have Bern give it to us as a big troll? Even though I thought something along the lines of their guilt before that scene, it seems too difficult to accept now.

Or maybe that is how Ry7 wants me to think.....

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but we're shown in no uncertain terms that he's the only person who CAN solve it.
We are? When?

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He's underdeveloped to the point that there's no way you couldn't immediately find him suspect if you were an outside observer.
Well let's try applying some real life. He appears in forgeries, and people remember seeing him off the island once, and a few may have even seen him on the island on a few of their shifts. Then it turns out that none of the servants remember him from school, and they can't find his birth records (though I don't know how impossible that might have been for an orphan meant to be born in 1970's Japan). Even assuming they never found records of him at the orphanage, it doesn't mean people would immediately assume he didn't exist, or even know about it. Who would actually look into his records anyway? The police? Maybe, but why? Witch-hunters? How would they get access when the records would still be in paper form and not on computers. All an official needs to do is bar them (va is the golden witch after all...). The police and Eva seemed pretty keen on being quite about things anyway. Someone may have known the truth, but then again Eva knew the truth. People seem capable of being honorable regarding secrets, I mean, look at Genji. That guy is a vault.

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the sixth sense
I always thought the same thing, my reaction to that movie was "but what about all the times she ignored him NOT at dinner" at least in the Others they were living in an isolated bubble and probably didn't contact the outside world.

Quote:
Shannon then became Kanon (for absolutely no apparent reason...finally stopped being Kanon by becoming Beatrice or Shannon.
I always interpreted that they didn't need a reason for that, because Ry7 presenting the forgeries to us as real events had been given up. By this point it was more like Ep 8's minigame, Battler playing a logic game with Erika.

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The fact that the anime depicts Kyrie's and Rudolph's corpses as having moved during those events
It did?

Quote:
EP5 was a giant troll to show how badly the minor characters understood Beatrice's game, EP6 was to show how intricate the system actually is and what it allows (mainly using "empty spaces"
Could you explain that in more detail?
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Old 2012-06-27, 07:30   Link #29365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
It did?
Anime episode 17 (01:39)
Rudolph is lying face up to the direct left of the portrait and Kyrie face up directly in front of epitaph plate. Hideyoshi is lying face up in front of the sofa, to the right of the stairs.
Anime episode 17 (17:03)
When they push the doors to the mansion open Hideyoshi is still lying in the same spot, but Rudolph is now lying face down a little to the right of the epitaph plate, even further than Kyrie lay a while ago and Kyrie is nowhere to be seen.

In episode 18 they are face up in their old positions again...but it still strikes me as strange...

This is of course considering that Ryűkishi actually paid attention to this point, but seeing how he told only Beato's voice actress what actually happened and only Shannon's to a certain extent, I think we can assume he would have minded such a blatant move from the anime creators. And it's nearly impossible to be a mistake because these are changes that have to be done instead of just reusing the exact same cells twice (which is easier and cheaper).

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Could you explain that in more detail?
EP5 recreated a typical Beatrice game but especially Bernkastel tried forcing logic on it through Erika that was basically unfit for the gameboard. The whole thing was more about showing us how a master detective (Erika) waltzed in and tried solving everything through pure logic without regards for the emotional background that the author sees as important. When laying out the gameboard at least Bern apparently failed to see the logic behind certain pieces.

EP6 showed Battler apparently maneuvering himself into an inescapable trap only to be saved by a system that nobody of the antagonists had anticipated. It basically was all about constructing a framework for the loophole of the "empty character space" to be used.

Basically you could say that EP1-4 pretty much concerned themselves with the Who and Why but didn't concern themselves with the How and Chiru in turn technically became only about the How, while repeating the actions of the first Episodes from a different perspective.
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Old 2012-06-27, 09:34   Link #29366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Shannon never even had to actually leave the room, though of course if we take Battler being locked in the room literally then she would have at least had to reach the door to his locked room.
The answer is pretty simple nobody was in the closet. Erika was fooled into believing that there was a Kanon among the people she locked into the second room. By him not existing in the first place Battler could simply leave the room because a figurative placeholder in form of the "Kanon-slot" had been placed into his room. It's basically the same trick as Kanon vanishing from Jessica's locked room in EP2.
I think Kanon entering the closet and vanishing in it was simply a narrative means to imply that he is nothing more than "clothing put on a different character". Once you return him to the closet he ceases to exist.
Battler must have been inside the guest room when Erika entered it during the logic error sequence.

We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED.

I proclaim that the chain lock has been repaired by the duct tape seal and has regained its original functionality. And, thanks to that, I locked the room upon entering it and made this guest room a closed room from the inside once more.

and Battler must have somehow left the room at one point

Battler does not exist within the guest room.

Albeit I think R07 forgot about the loophole he created himself that if someone is dead then he doesn't exist, meaning that Battler could have saved himself from the logic error simply by killing himself.
But for the sake of the game let's just pretend that Battler had to leave the room somehow. The you need to find someone that could "save him" and this someone was our chamaleontic Yasu. I doubt it went differently, after all there must be a reason if the seal of the windows of the neighboring room couldn't be confirmed to be intact.

Still, it is entirily possible that whoever took Battler's place, didn't chose the same place to hide. Yasu could have hidden herself under the bed.

Quote:
I always interpreted that they didn't need a reason for that, because Ry7 presenting the forgeries to us as real events had been given up. By this point it was more like Ep 8's minigame, Battler playing a logic game with Erika.
Yeah that's pretty much that, but still...
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Old 2012-06-27, 09:54   Link #29367
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I actually have written an entire solution to ShKanon I just haven't posted it anywhere yet. But in it the culprit of Ep 3 4-8 twilights and beyond is Eva and Shannon for George's murder and Nanjo's murder then she got Jessica. Went back to the parlor and killed herself for good. I don't know I'm sure there are red truths to go against it.
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Old 2012-06-27, 10:01   Link #29368
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
I actually have written an entire solution to ShKanon I just haven't posted it anywhere yet. But in it the culprit of Ep 3 4-8 twilights and beyond is Eva and Shannon for George's murder and Nanjo's murder then she got Jessica. Went back to the parlor and killed herself for good. I don't know I'm sure there are red truths to go against it.
I would love to see your entire ShKanon solution when you post it!

About what you mentioned of the theory just now: you're saying that Eva and Shannon kill George? I'm a little curious about what Eva's motive could be for that. There may not be any reds saying she couldn't kill her own son, but it doesn't seem in character for her.
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Old 2012-06-27, 10:47   Link #29369
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Anime episode 17 (01:39)
Rudolph is lying face up to the direct left of the portrait and Kyrie face up directly in front of epitaph plate. Hideyoshi is lying face up in front of the sofa, to the right of the stairs.
Anime episode 17 (17:03)
When they push the doors to the mansion open Hideyoshi is still lying in the same spot, but Rudolph is now lying face down a little to the right of the epitaph plate, even further than Kyrie lay a while ago and Kyrie is nowhere to be seen.

In episode 18 they are face up in their old positions again...but it still strikes me as strange...

This is of course considering that Ryűkishi actually paid attention to this point, but seeing how he told only Beato's voice actress what actually happened and only Shannon's to a certain extent, I think we can assume he would have minded such a blatant move from the anime creators. And it's nearly impossible to be a mistake because these are changes that have to be done instead of just reusing the exact same cells twice (which is easier and cheaper).
Since they go to their original positions later I'd just say it's one of Studio DEEN's silly mistakes. You have a point that it's cheaper not to redraw them. But then again maybe they didn't want it to look cheap?

They've done tons of other errors like this. Forgetting to draw the one winged eagle onto people's clothes sometimes, and giving the stakes of purgatory the wrong hair colors are a couple.
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Old 2012-06-27, 11:07   Link #29370
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I would love to see your entire ShKanon solution when you post it!

About what you mentioned of the theory just now: you're saying that Eva and Shannon kill George? I'm a little curious about what Eva's motive could be for that. There may not be any reds saying she couldn't kill her own son, but it doesn't seem in character for her.
Oh no what I'm saying is that Shannon performed the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 9th Twilights while Eva did the rest of them so Shannon killed Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Kinzo, Maria, Rosa, George, and Nanjo.

Also the thing with the corpses is probably just a DEEN mistake. Do you remember the scene where Ange kills the Stakes and she ends up killing Lucifer twice because they drew Satan wrong. Seriously DEEN makes so many mistakes I find the anime is not very reliable with any info
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Old 2012-06-27, 13:02   Link #29371
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, my take on it is that the Yasu entity is simply one person. However, who that person is at any given time changes. These personas can "die" without Yasu's body dying, in which case a different persona can fill its place. This way Yasu's body always amounts to one countable living person, even though it can account for multiple "dead" people.

It's not perfect, though. My theory denies the possibility of the simultaneous existence of multiple Yasu-personas, but, as Renall once pointed out, in EP3 Shannon and Kanon were killed by other people and their killer was in the same room when they killed them, which seems to require simultaneous existence of both the victim and murderer. The only way it could work, then, is if Shannon and Kanon were killed by a non-Yasu persona, which doesn't fit the narrative at all.

As for a comprehensive theory of all the murders, we can assume ShKanon for whodunnit and theorizing a plausible howdunnit is actually pretty easy for all of them. It's the whydunnit that's hard.
Hmmmm... I don't know if this works, but I've always thought it happened something like this:

Eva (and possibly the other adults [or just Rosa]) solve the Epitaph on the first night, similar to EP7 Tea Party. They meet Yasu in the underground gold room. Eva chooses to recognize and accept her as The Golden Witch, Beatrice, and in doing so she kills Shannon and Kanon. If this is true, Shannon and Kanon were killed by other people and their killer was in the same room when they killed them.


I might be missing some obvious red somewhere, though.
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Old 2012-06-27, 13:07   Link #29372
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The answer is pretty simple nobody was in the closet. Erika was fooled into believing that there was a Kanon among the people she locked into the second room. By him not existing in the first place Battler could simply leave the room because a figurative placeholder in form of the "Kanon-slot" had been placed into his room. It's basically the same trick as Kanon vanishing from Jessica's locked room in EP2.
I think Kanon entering the closet and vanishing in it was simply a narrative means to imply that he is nothing more than "clothing put on a different character". Once you return him to the closet he ceases to exist.
Kanon's body physically entered the room, per the Logic Error red:

Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

Erika explicitly asks that Battler refer to the number of bodies that enter or exit the room. Therefore, Kanon's body must enter and presumably remain in the Logic Error room even if Kanon himself ceases to exist.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In EP3 Shannon and Kanon were "killed" by Beatrice, meaning that she made an incontrovertible choice of abandoning those persona ferever. That means Beatrice was still alive and free to move in EP3.
The personality death was explained in EP5 when Beatrice herself was shown as "dying".
Except it's not incontrovertible. In fact, it's never incontrovertible, and Banquet itself demonstrates that very thing! The whole thing is nonsense, even though I agree with you it's what the author probably intended.

However, it's impossible to "irrevocably kill" something which lacks an external enforcement mechanism to actually make the act irrevocable. Killing a biological entity is irrevocable because the very act of biological death is itself irrevocable, such that when you kill something it ceases biological functionality. You can decide to un-kill it, but you aren't physically able to un-kill it, so it stays dead. That's what irrevocable or incontrovertible means, you can't change it or go back on it.

With "personas," there is absolutely no mechanism which prevents Yasu from "reviving" Shannon or Kanon at will or simply creating an exact copy of Shannon/Kanon from before they were "killed." Philosophically, of course, these two actions are exactly the same thing. In other words, she can't make an irrevocable decision to kill Shannon or Kanon, short of killing her physical body. The nature of "existing" for Shannon and Kanon precludes the possibility that they can ever truly die for as long as their host body and/or creator entity lives.

But Beatrice/Yasu can't exist in the stories because then her master personality would be an additional person. Which creates the phenomenon of Zombie Shkanon I went over a while back and the whole thing just collapses on itself. Ryukishi isn't allowed to have it both ways, but he tries anyway.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
When the five other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!

Well this is yet another stretch but this red doesn't actually say victim and murderer were inside them same room at the same time. It only says that when the victim was murdered, i.e. when the victim ceased to exist, the murderer was in the same room as they were when they were alive.
Permit me to get a little Gilbert Ryle up in this bitch: How is this actually possible?

We are told that this crime must have a human solution. Therefore, if "multiple personalities" are going to exist and be counted they must be an observable human phenomenon. For the sake of argument, let's assume all the dumb stuff about Shkanontrice and on-demand persona switching is entirely scientifically accurate, observable, and fully human process, such that it doesn't violate any ban on the supernatural.

Okay. So. How do personalities actually switch? There are three options here:
  • Personalities are always active at all times and one simply takes control of the body. This would appear to violate the person restrictions if more personalities than Shannon and Kanon are present, and violates the notion that either can die because no personality ever actually "dies" (goes inactive). It would also somewhat violate the Logic Error, but only sort of.
  • Some personalities are dormant and others are active. At least two personalities may be active at the same time.
  • Only one personality is active and existent at a time. This seems consistent with issues like the Logic Error.
Of these, we can immediately dismiss the first as if true, it renders all the red tricks that Ryukishi supposedly used to make a non-dead person dead irrelevant, as the person never "died" anyway. So let's focus on the other two, as the philosophical problem with them is basically the same.

And that problem is this: What is the initiating physical action which causes a personality either to surface or to switch? To use a solution like "Beatrice became dominant and replaced Kanon," it must be explained how a personality that doesn't presently exist (and therefore cannot apprehend anything) can emerge in response to any form of stimulus. "Not existing" is a pretty high bar to set. It doesn't mean you're asleep. It means you do not exist. A thing which does not exist cannot choose to appear because it doesn't exist to perform an act of choosing. It cannot "awaken in response to a memory" because it's not sleeping and sensing, it doesn't exist at all and therefore can sense nothing.

Indeed, for a personality to be invented or recalled it must be acted upon by an external force. But if that external force exists, say as "the brain of Yasu," which regulates the "minds" of each personality and creates and destroys them as necessary, this external force must take up a person slot unto itself. The only way around this is to argue that the "body and brain of the host Yasu" is merely a physical apparatus and "personhood" is contained solely in the mind, and that Yasu's brain which operates as a sort of server or switching board for her myriad minds is not a person. And that's bollocks.

In short, you pretty much have to be a Cartesian Dualist to even accept the functioning of Shkanontrice in the first place, and Cartesian Dualism is for nerds and arguably violates the spirit of Battler's "human truth" claim since a dualist believes that minds are non-apprehensible non-physical entities, and therefore equivalent to Witches.

The only other way to resolve this issue is to suggest that all personalities voluntarily shut themselves down in order to transfer control. I would submit that voluntary sublimation of one's consciousness in this manner is "suicide," and therefore impossible under the red in Banquet. The other option would be that stimuli acting on the active personality can cause it to sublimate, but the problem there is that forcing Kanon to stop existing cannot create Shannon, and Kanon cannot simply be transitioned into Shannon because that violates the notion that the personalities are distinct and not merely a single personality voluntarily acting them out. So neither Shannon or Kanon was able to voluntarily sublimate themselves, and no external force exists which can cause them to be sublimated, therefore Banquet of the Golden Witch contains an irresolvable Logic Error.

...Well, alright, you could also technically argue the personalities arise entirely at random due to comprehensible biological processes, but that makes everything Shkanontrice does remarkably convenient, given that sublimation never randomly occurs at an important point in time (such as mid-murder). Therefore it violates even the suspension of disbelief I have granted Shkanontrice as a premise for this thought experiment and means the writing is even dumber than I am quite literally giving it credit for.
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Old 2012-06-27, 14:22   Link #29373
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Life (and bandwidth) is too short to watch the nine hour KnownNoMore video for the anti-Shkanon solution, but I was curious enough to go and look through the comments. Which there were a lot of! And which seem to have got pretty heated. Some people really having a go at KnownNoMore for missing the point of the series ("It's sad to see Goats go to this measure...") and other commenters having a go at "dogmatic Shkanon believers" and "Twilight addicts". Even one "There are actually a lot of similarities between Shkanon believers and religious people who believe their holy book is inerrant". And, well, problem with making a nine hour theory video is probably that by the end nearly anyone would be really, really fixated on their theory being correct, because wow, all that time spent on making it.

The main ideas put forward appear to be Yasu = fictional, Rosa = Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon = separate bodies, Rosa took over Shannon's love for Battler, and people = living human bodies and never personalities. Ryukishi made an illusory truth about Shkanon to cover up a Rosa, Nanjo and George culprit solution. Rosa is doing it because she's wracked with guilt over Kuwadorian Beato's death and wants to perform the epitaph ceremony in order to resurrect her. Nanjo's doing it for money. (I don't know why George is doing it according to this theory.) And ep 7 was written in order to deceive the audience.

Somebody actually did a transcript of the first few parts of the videos. It doesn't get far, but if anyone's curious about what the theory is about, it's the only transcript out there that I know of. It mostly just goes through the ideas of why Shkanon theory is false in KnownNoMore's opinion.
https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...neko-explained
https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...ained-part-1-a

And some quotes from KnownNoMore in the comments on the Youtube video:

Quote:
"What you should trust is the red and the objective perspective of the detective and judge EVERYTHING based on that foundation. If you do that, you wont be deceived (unfortunately it can still get you to the other extreme that Ryu fucked up his own story, which many people unfortunately believe)"
Quote:
"I believe that Ryukishi anticipated that people would find rationalisations to make the official explanation work. He actually put in very direct statements for that exact purpose. Like "its forbidden for a servant to be the culprit". He knew that people who fell for his deception would say things like "Shannon is? not truly a servant" or "heck, its her Beatrice persona thats the culprit, not the servant Shannon persona" etc."
Quote:
"And yes until Ryukishi states the truth in red, the official explanation is ALSO just a theory regardless of what Ryukishi says in interviews. After all, game designer needs to play by his own rules as well. therefore we can judge Ryukishi words on? whether or not its corresponds with the story Basically, his words in interviews should be regarded as purple statements.

No red = no genuine certainty. Its as simple as that. "
Quote:
"I think an argument could be made? for Rosa making secret trips to Rokkenjima and (at least for the most part) her so called trips with a boyfriend was just an excuse why she wasnt at work. In actuality Rosa went to Rokkenjima in secret (especially after solving the epitaph and becoming the secret head) and would stay in the VIP room unbeknownst to Krauss and Natushi, furthering the legend of Beatrice wandering through the mansion at night.

Cant prove that, but the new Sakutaro could be a hint"
Quote:
"My theory accounts BETTER for the love aspect in my opinion because the official explanation completely ignores Rosa's heart"
Quote:
"Rosa feels guilty towards Shannon and tries to do something to make up to her. So Rosa plays matchmaker and tries to get Shannon to persuit someone other than Battler, namely George. If she falls for George, she will no longer have to worry about Battler. So in this sense, Rosa took on the burden of Shannon's love by actively helping her finding new love.

There is also a more esoteric and symbolic side to it. Shannon's burden is depicted as an actual "thing", a bud of love that exists inside her body. So Beatrice uses her magic to transfer that object into her own body, which causes a change in her character. Since Rosa's Beatrice character now own this object, this character now gets burdened with it, making Beatrice obsessed with Battler.

In other words, Rosa's imaginary character changed to being obsessed with Battler.

Think about the cotton drifting festival of Higurashi (and I'm reffering to the religious meaning). The people transfer their sins upon the cotton and then have it drift away. This cleanses you or your sins and there are many many many rituals like this in Japanese culture. Guilt and sin are such are often treated as actual things inside your body that you can remove from your body using some sort of ritual.

Rosa basically did that on Shannon, and before that she transferred her guilt to yasu"
Quote:
"Shannon is not involved, she is an innocent bystander. The only reason the why-dunnit is centered around her is because Rosa needed someone to "create a universe with" for the imaginary Yasu which eventually led her to take the burden of Battler's sin upon herself and helping Shannon to find new love. Shannon might be aware of what is going on but she lets fate run its course.
I can't say I agree with this theory, but there's the info I could find on it if anyone who also doesn't want to watch the videos is inclined to get their teeth into it a little more.
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Old 2012-06-27, 14:41   Link #29374
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Originally Posted by Klarth View Post
Hmmmm... I don't know if this works, but I've always thought it happened something like this:

Eva (and possibly the other adults [or just Rosa]) solve the Epitaph on the first night, similar to EP7 Tea Party. They meet Yasu in the underground gold room. Eva chooses to recognize and accept her as The Golden Witch, Beatrice, and in doing so she kills Shannon and Kanon. If this is true, Shannon and Kanon were killed by other people and their killer was in the same room when they killed them.
Problem: Even if Shannon and Kanon can somehow be "killed" while they are "switched off"/"don't exist" Shannon or Kanon would still have to be "switched on" in order to "exist" in the same room as someone else. Or to put it another way, Yasu has to actually be in "Shannon mode" in order for Shannon to be "killed while the killer is in the same room".

There are certainly ways around this, such as the adults acknowledging Yasu as Beatrice while Yasu is in "Shannon mode", but none of them I find very comfortable.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
With "personas," there is absolutely no mechanism which prevents Yasu from "reviving" Shannon or Kanon at will or simply creating an exact copy of Shannon/Kanon from before they were "killed." Philosophically, of course, these two actions are exactly the same thing.
Psychologically they are not, though.
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:26   Link #29375
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Psychologically they are not, though.
Aberrant psychology should not be used as a basis for a statement of truth. The red cannot be permitted to conform to a person's belief that an individual - regardless of substantive makeup - has "died" if there is not some distinct belief in the practical finality of that event. Otherwise, Shannon and Kanon die multiple times every day. At that point, saying they are presently dead is meaningless because it is always possible to point to a "Shannon" who is dead (even if "Shannon" is alive), and the Kanon name exclusivity argument is violated because there are multiple "Kanons." It's the same personality recalled, which therefore means sublimation cannot be viewed as death. To suggest otherwise is cheating, to essentially redefine "dead" as "asleep," and at that point Kinzotrice and the like are all possible events.

And none of that matters anyway, because the rules were never actually established in the first place. So it's still cheating, because the writer hasn't actually bothered telling us enough to determine how a process works. His retreat into ambiguity is no doubt precisely because he has no idea how the process is philosophically justifiable.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:31   Link #29376
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
*snip*
The problem, I think, is the fact that Ryuukishi by using the personalities gimmick defied the basic rule that the mystery must have a human explanation.

Personalites taken as mere entities detatched from their physical bodies are "human" (adjective) but are not human beings. And he even said so himself they are "less than human". But that means our culprit isn't even a human and two of the victims aren't human either.

Personalities might "exist" in our real world, but the way ryuukishi treats them is the same as if they were supernatural entities. In other words it isn't really different than magic. Because "Kanon" in Ep6 actually magically vanished into nothingness, and that is not something that can happen to something physical in the physical world.

In other words this is not a naturalistic approach, which is what is supposed to be used in sleuthing, it's philosophical and metaphisical. You can argue that a personality can die, but that's a philosophical argument, you cannot demonstrate that this is an objective truth rather than a simple interpretation.

Obi Wan Kenobi can say that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, but that's just his interpretation, it's not a fact. And since it's not a fact it shouldn't be possible to state it in red. For the same reason any red truth stating the death of Shannon and Kanon assumes the objectivity and validity of personality death when it can be certainly disputed.

And that's where the whole concept of the red truths fails miserably:
The "absolute" part of an "absolute truth" is absolutely void of any meaning if the definitions of the terms used are subjective and not absolute.

The problem is that we know for a fact that the red truths of Umineko make use of subjective definitions, and that means the reliability of red truths is just a facade and doesn't really provide any certainty at all.
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:32   Link #29377
Captain Bluebeard
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Some people really having a go at KnownNoMore for missing the point of the series ("It's sad to see Goats go to this measure...") and other commenters having a go at "dogmatic Shkanon believers" and "Twilight addicts". Even one "There are actually a lot of similarities between Shkanon believers and religious people who believe their holy book is inerrant". And, well, problem with making a nine hour theory video is probably that by the end nearly anyone would be really, really fixated on their theory being correct, because wow, all that time spent on making it.

The main ideas put forward appear to be Yasu = fictional, Rosa = Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon = separate bodies, Rosa took over Shannon's love for Battler, and people = living human bodies and never personalities. Ryukishi made an illusory truth about Shkanon to cover up a Rosa, Nanjo and George culprit solution. Rosa is doing it because she's wracked with guilt over Kuwadorian Beato's death and wants to perform the epitaph ceremony in order to resurrect her. Nanjo's doing it for money. (I don't know why George is doing it according to this theory.) And ep 7 was written in order to deceive the audience.

Somebody actually did a transcript of the first few parts of the videos. It doesn't get far, but if anyone's curious about what the theory is about, it's the only transcript out there that I know of. It mostly just goes through the ideas of why Shkanon theory is false in KnownNoMore's opinion.
https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...neko-explained
https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...ained-part-1-a

And some quotes from KnownNoMore in the comments on the Youtube video:

"What you should trust is the red and the objective perspective of the detective and judge EVERYTHING based on that foundation. If you do that, you wont be deceived (unfortunately it can still get you to the other extreme that Ryu fucked up his own story, which many people unfortunately believe)"
Quote:
"I believe that Ryukishi anticipated that people would find rationalisations to make the official explanation work. He actually put in very direct statements for that exact purpose. Like "its forbidden for a servant to be the culprit". He knew that people who fell for his deception would say things like "Shannon is? not truly a servant" or "heck, its her Beatrice persona thats the culprit, not the servant Shannon persona" etc."
Quote:
"And yes until Ryukishi states the truth in red, the official explanation is ALSO just a theory regardless of what Ryukishi says in interviews. After all, game designer needs to play by his own rules as well. therefore we can judge Ryukishi words on? whether or not its corresponds with the story Basically, his words in interviews should be regarded as purple statements.

No red = no genuine certainty. Its as simple as that. "

Quote:
"I think an argument could be made? for Rosa making secret trips to Rokkenjima and (at least for the most part) her so called trips with a boyfriend was just an excuse why she wasnt at work. In actuality Rosa went to Rokkenjima in secret (especially after solving the epitaph and becoming the secret head) and would stay in the VIP room unbeknownst to Krauss and Natushi, furthering the legend of Beatrice wandering through the mansion at night.

Cant prove that, but the new Sakutaro could be a hint"
Quote:
"My theory accounts BETTER for the love aspect in my opinion because the official explanation completely ignores Rosa's heart"
Quote:
"Rosa feels guilty towards Shannon and tries to do something to make up to her. So Rosa plays matchmaker and tries to get Shannon to persuit someone other than Battler, namely George. If she falls for George, she will no longer have to worry about Battler. So in this sense, Rosa took on the burden of Shannon's love by actively helping her finding new love.

There is also a more esoteric and symbolic side to it. Shannon's burden is depicted as an actual "thing", a bud of love that exists inside her body. So Beatrice uses her magic to transfer that object into her own body, which causes a change in her character. Since Rosa's Beatrice character now own this object, this character now gets burdened with it, making Beatrice obsessed with Battler.

In other words, Rosa's imaginary character changed to being obsessed with Battler.

Think about the cotton drifting festival of Higurashi (and I'm reffering to the religious meaning). The people transfer their sins upon the cotton and then have it drift away. This cleanses you or your sins and there are many many many rituals like this in Japanese culture. Guilt and sin are such are often treated as actual things inside your body that you can remove from your body using some sort of ritual.

Rosa basically did that on Shannon, and before that she transferred her guilt to yasu"
Quote:
"Shannon is not involved, she is an innocent bystander. The only reason the why-dunnit is centered around her is because Rosa needed someone to "create a universe with" for the imaginary Yasu which eventually led her to take the burden of Battler's sin upon herself and helping Shannon to find new love. Shannon might be aware of what is going on but she lets fate run its course.
I can't say I agree with this theory, but there's the info I could find on it if anyone who also doesn't want to watch the videos is inclined to get their teeth into it a little more.
What....the....fuck....?
I mean, his whole premise of the Rosa culprit is ridiculous, but this makes no freakin' sense. I mean, honestly, I do have some respect for the guy, he's got a bunch of clever ideas, like the fact that Rosa could be lying about being with her boyfriends (which, however, could be tackled by the existence of the receipt which Maria sees, but it's still imaginative anyway), but he goes and completely ignores the whydunnit.

Rosa's actions as he describes them make absolutely no sense. First of all, why would she feel guilty towrads Shannon in the first place? Or why would she want her to hook up with George so badly? Or why would Ryukishi keep lying in his interviews and expect his readers to see past that for some reason? Or what about the 'no red truth, no certainty'? Did he even read EP8? But okay, let's say the last one is acceptable when trying to solve the mystery (which really isn't because the red truth isn't really of any help if taken as the only basis to start reasoning).

What bugs me the most is that he's so damn confident in his theory which makes absolutely no sense. I...just have no words.
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:34   Link #29378
Asuka0NK
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So where should I post my theory at because I don't really know if I should just put it here or not.
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:35   Link #29379
GreyZone
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I will not even try to watch a 9-hour video... and having to pause all the time... no thx, but there are 2 main issues i got with a Rosa-George-Nanjo culprit theory:

1. The REAL PERFECT closed room in EP2. How did they all die? If I remember correctly, then the only person that was in the right position for the "hide-gun-by-suicide" method was Shannon? Well please explain how all of them are in a perfect closed room then. Magic?

2. Said to Erika in EP6: Sorry, but even if you do join us.... there are 17 people!
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:41   Link #29380
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I will not even try to watch a 9-hour video... and having to pause all the time... no thx, but there are 2 main issues i got with a Rosa-George-Nanjo culprit theory:

1. The REAL PERFECT closed room in EP2. How did they all die? If I remember correctly, then the only person that was in the right position for the "hide-gun-by-suicide" method was Shannon? Well please explain how all of them are in a perfect closed room then. Magic?[/COLOR]
About this one, Wanderer summarised KnownNoMore's argument on it earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
He has the most trouble with this one, and with Kanon's death in EP1. For this one, he presents 3 possibilities:

1) The first is really awful- Shannon ended up learning about what George was doing and they got into a struggle (which George didn't want, obviously), killing each other simultaneously (with letter openers!).
2) The second is just like the first, except that George won the fight and killed Shannon (again, not what he wanted, and again, with a letter opener to the skull) then tried to fake his own death by faking the wound and using a "fake death drug", except that Rosa had already arranged for that drug to be poisoned so he actually died.
3) The third possibility is that Rosa actually committed the murders herself. When Genji knocked, it woke Battler from a nap, so it's possible Rosa, who had all the master keys, was off murdering while Battler was asleep. Best of the three, but it still doesn't jive well with what Will said.
Speaking of which, Wanderer also gave a good summary of the overall theory from the videos too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
  • ShKanon is impossible, because it contradicts red.
  • ShKanon is a deception by RK07, to fool everyone except those who can see through it.
  • Shannon and Kanon really are two different people.
  • Rosa is Beatrice.
  • Yasu doesn't actually exist. She's fiction.
  • Yasu is the personification of Rosa's guilt for killing Kuwadorian Beatrice.
  • Rosa's Yasu/Beatrice persona took on Shannon's love for Battler in Rosa's own mind. Shannon does not even know this.
  • Rosa carries out the ritualistic murders in order to resurrect the Kuwadorian Beatrice (KnownNoMore is not entirely sure to what extent Rosa literally believes this) and to get Battler's acknowledgement. She'll kill herself, too, when the time comes, or halt the murders if the epitaph is solved. Basically the motive is exactly the same as it is in the most basic of Yasu-culprit-theories.
  • George is creepily obsessed with Shannon.
  • George plans on killing everyone else and taking all the gold to build a life with Shannon.
  • George and Rosa work together, but inevitably end up betraying each other.
  • Nanjo is also an accomplice, but he doesn't ever kill anyone himself. He's in it for the money to save his sick grandchild. He is also inevitably betrayed.

That's it in a nutshell. I've seen everything he's released, so if there are any questions I can summarize his solutions and explanations for the various twilights, the logic error, the love duel, Will's answers, etc.
I'm a bit curious now. What is the Love Duel about under KnownNoMore's theory?
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