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Old 2012-06-27, 15:43   Link #29381
Xenon_gun
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Quote:
Said to Erika in EP6: Sorry, but even if you do join us.... there are 17 people!
Erika-ball theory. Erika is a personality (or an aspect of one), a ghost, or a witch. Choose your poison.

That, or the timing of the red declaration is such that some people are dead.
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:45   Link #29382
Asuka0NK
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ShKanon is a deception by RK07, to fool everyone except those who can see through it.


This is one of the things that just makes him sound so coincided
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:45   Link #29383
Captain Bluebeard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
2. Said to Erika in EP6: Sorry, but even if you do join us.... there are 17 people!
Apparently, his argument for completely disregarding that red, is the fact that the meaning of the word 'people' is ambiguous. Does it reffer to bodies? Does it reffer to personalities? He completely misses the fact that the meaning behind the terms used in red are subjective, just as happens with the white text, which enables the use of many semantics and word-play, which Umineko is full of ever since the red first shows up.

Another thing I came across while skimming his theory is, he uses the following reds to actually disprove Shkannon:
The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name.

Not that Yasu IS Kanon so she can claim his name, no, of course not, it means Shkannon isn't real.

They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!

Not that Yasu IS Kanon, again, no, of course not.

Kanon is dead. Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim.

Not that the meaning of red text is ambiguous and subjective and Beato is a dirty bitch who can mess around with the meaning of words as she pleases, no, of course not, that's what only us simpletons would think.
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:45   Link #29384
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
So where should I post my theory at because I don't really know if I should just put it here or not.
I think this thread is probably a good place to post your theory.
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Old 2012-06-27, 16:12   Link #29385
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The problem, I think, is the fact that Ryuukishi by using the personalities gimmick defied the basic rule that the mystery must have a human explanation.

Personalites taken as mere entities detatched from their physical bodies are "human" (adjective) but are not human beings. And he even said so himself they are "less than human". But that means our culprit isn't even a human and two of the victims aren't human either.

Personalities might "exist" in our real world, but the way ryuukishi treats them is the same as if they were supernatural entities. In other words it isn't really different than magic. Because "Kanon" in Ep6 actually magically vanished into nothingness, and that is not something that can happen to something physical in the physical world.
Actually, my point is kind of even worse than I went into before, but since you pointed it out...

Because Ryukishi is positing the existence of a person who has multiple minds, his entire argument is that the mind is non-physical but is capable of interacting with physical objects. Yet said mind is also capable of retreating into a state of non-existence somehow, which is only a property of physical objects. He's committing a massive category error here by proposing that the dualist mind (the "software" argument he makes for Shkanon) is equivalent to the physical brain, when in fact in order for his entire gimmick to work, minds and brains must be entirely separate, such that the definition of a "person" can be categorized as "a body with an active mind."

But under dualist philosophy, a mind is a non-physical object. It has no existence on the physical plane, and only interacts with physical matter in an undefined and quasi-mystical fashion. A mind, then, could be defined in Ryukishi's terms as "a conditionally existent intellect (mind) which can affect the physical world." That is to say, the Shannon personality is a distinct mind which cannot be said to "exist" anywhere save perhaps when in direct interaction with its body, and as this setup is dualist in nature, the mind itself is somehow capable of causing physical interaction (by directing the Shkanonform body) without itself being a physical object.

Thus, an entirely non-physical, unverifiable, impossible-to-sense-or-apprehend intellect is capable of causing the murders. Hey, that's funny... Beatrice is a non-physical, unverifiable, impossible-to-sense-or-apprehend intellect claiming to be capable of causing the murders.

Therefore we conclude as follows:
  • DEFINITION: "Minds" are non-physical intellects which can interact with physical reality.
  • PREMISE: Personalities are minds per Dualism which may or may not have physical bodies at any given time.
  • PREMISE: All characters in Umineko have personalities; thus, all characters in Umineko have (and are) minds.
  • PREMISE: Some character in Umineko committed the murders.
  • DEFINITION: "Witches" are defined as non-physical intellects which can interact with physical reality.
  • THEREFORE: All characters in Umineko are witches.
  • THEREFORE: The murders were committed by a witch.
  • CONCLUSION: Checkmate, Ushiromiya Battlerrrrrrrrrrr! ahaha.wav
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Old 2012-06-27, 16:16   Link #29386
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon_gun View Post
Erika-ball theory. Erika is a personality (or an aspect of one), a ghost, or a witch. Choose your poison.

That, or the timing of the red declaration is such that some people are dead.
But her BODY entered the room of the logic error. His theory itself is based on the fact that "the red is absolute and has to be accepted at face-value". If ErikaBall works, then ShKanonTrice does too.



About the closed room of EP2: Before accepting his 1st solution, I would rather accept small bombs. Solution 2 is destroyed because of KNOX. And about 3 I think Battler being woken up by Genji was only after he seperated from Rosa and Maria and got drunk, so he probably got the time mixed up... I could be wrong though... also word of god...
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Old 2012-06-27, 16:21   Link #29387
Asuka0NK
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Well GreyZone Word of God is a lie apparently
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Old 2012-06-27, 16:22   Link #29388
GreyZone
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that's why it is a "Purple declaration" xD Although..... now that I think about it.... WORD OF GOD!
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Old 2012-06-27, 16:24   Link #29389
Asuka0NK
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Word of god is a lie I guess in his theory because he is an intellectual that can see through all illusions and is the smartest person on the planet.
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Old 2012-06-27, 16:27   Link #29390
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Einstein, Newt... oh wait... to debunk someone to be the best, 1 example is enough already xD
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Old 2012-06-27, 16:31   Link #29391
Asuka0NK
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Ok the smartest living person on the planet.
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Old 2012-06-27, 16:37   Link #29392
GreyZone
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No blue so I don't have to respond


I will respond anyway:

Bill Gates

If he really was so intelligent then he should have earned a lot of money with it already Ok... he probably did by YouTube... but now burden of proof is not on my end^^


But also: Intelligence is not enough. Wisdom and Knowledge have to be accounted for too!
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Old 2012-06-27, 17:30   Link #29393
Asuka0NK
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ShKanon Theory
Now in my theory the accomplice changes
Legend Accomplices: Nanjo, Servants (minus Gohda) and Hideyoshi.

First Twilight:
Will's Truth: Illusions to illusions. The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions.
Red Truths:
Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
-------------------------
Shannon shot everyone in the Dining Room then Genji helped her carry them. She had attempted to sacrifice Natsuhi but the scorpion pendent was on the door so instead she painted on her door. So Shannon faked her death and Hideyoshi was recruited by Shannon using the Gold as a deal sealer.

Second Twilight:
Illusions to illusions. A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions.
Red:
Both were killed by another person!
It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!

-----------------------------
This was never a closed room murder. Kanon and Genji had attempted to open the door but it failed. So Kanon and Kumasawa went to get the wire cutters and paint. Kanon commited the murders and Kumasawa painted on the door. They hid the items under the bed afterwards.

Fourth Twilight:
Illusions to illusions. Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.
Red:
Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games.
------------------------------
Natsuhi lit Kinzo's body on fire in the Boiler Room.Ok now this one sorta does have a point since whenever Natsuhi dies on the First Twilight Kinzo doesn't get burned (Ep 2) or isn't burned till the very end (Ep 4)

Fifth Twilight:
Illusions to illusions. The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions.
Red:
All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
Kanon did not commit suicide

----------------------------
Kanon faked his own death and gave Nanjo the letter and snuck out the back door in the Boiler Room.

Sixth, Seventh, Eighth Twilight:
Illusions to illusions. Illusions are the blind girl’s song. Illusions of a closed room.
Red:
Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them!
And of course, the three were killed by other people!

------------------------
After everyone was kicked out of Kinzo's room Beatrice was let into the room by Maria. She shot and killed the three and told Maria to lock the door with the master key and put back then call Kinzo's room and sing.


Ninth Twilight:
No Truth
Red:
Natsuhi was killed by another person!
The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun!

--------------------------
Beatrice hid in the shadows until Natsuhi came out and Natsuhi's gun missed and Beatrice killed Natsuhi.

Turn of the Golden Witch
Accomplices: Servants (Minus Gohda), Nanjo, and Rosa


First Twilight:
Illusions to illusions the gold truth locks the lock of illusions
Red:
Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door
Only one key to the chapel exists
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit
Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'
This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel
The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria
The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!
No door with an auto-lock exists other than Kinzo's study!
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
There was no simultaneous murder!!
There was no one hiding in the chapel.
By this, a shut-in murder like you say does not work!
When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

-------------------------------------------------
The chapel door was never locked in the first place. Yasu bribed Rosa with the gold and she had to be an accomplice in the murders. That night Yasu pretended to murder the 6 and after Rosa left she truly murdered them and stuffed them with candy. The reason Rosa went back to get the key was so that she could re-seal the door after discovering the crimes not to open the door

Second Twilight
Illusions to illusions. Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse.

Red:
there are absolutely no types of hidden doors
This door is the only way in or out
The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant
the window is locked from the inside
Kanon was killed in this room
When locked, entry is not possible by any means
No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key
There is no way to get in or out other than the door and the window
No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included
Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that are you were not aware of
No one is hiding
No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key
Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside

-------------------------------
After commiting the murders Yasu killed off her Kanon character "denied his existance" Shannon then slipped the key to Rosa and in turn she gave the key to Nanjo who pretended to find it in Jessica's pocket.

Fourth, Fifth, Sixth Twilights
Ryukishi's answer is absolute and doesn't need to be disputed.Word of God destroys all illusions.

Seventh, Eighth Twilights
Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. No illusion can create a corpse.\
From now on I am not listing the red truths I know them so if I miss one please just tell me

Shannon murdered them herself and then threatened Gohda to make up a bogus story about what happened while Genji moved the bodies. Later on when he "discovered" them he staked them.

Banquet of the Golden Witch
Culprit: Yasu (Twilights 1-3)
Eva
Accomplices: None


First Twilight
Illusions to illusions. In a closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap.
Shannon hid a gun behind the couch where she was for later. After being discovered she hauled ass over to the Chapel and pretended to be Kanon.

Second Twilight
Earth to earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told.
Shannon was trying to leave the mansion after everyone was gone but then she saw Eva and Rosa fighting. Rosa then attacked Shannon since she should've been dead already. Shannon pushes Rosa and then strangles Maria.

Third Twilight
No one cares about George so he has no truth

After killing Rosa and Maria Shannon returned to the mansion to pretend to be dead. George wanted to see her and jumped out the window/or climbed down whatever. He made sure not to leave any marks on the ground. After finding Shannon she shot him.

Fourth, Fifth, Sixth Twilights
Earth to earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told.
Eva also went to the mansion after them and in there she murdered Kyrie and Rudolf after they tried to attack and convict her of everything. After this Hideyoshi found her and tried to take the gun away from her. She accidently pulled the trigger and killed Hideyoshi. (I don't believe Eva would ever kill Hideyoshi on purpose)

Seventh, Eighth Twilights
Earth to earth. The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade.
The obvious culprit is Eva who in her anger strangled the two and moved them to the arbor. She then rebuilt the barrier in the main guesthouse room.

Ninth Twilight
No truth
Shannon went to go see Jessica but was unfortunently caught by Nanjo. She then shot him in the head and walked with Jessica till the bomb killed them.
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Old 2012-06-27, 18:39   Link #29394
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
But her BODY entered the room of the logic error. His theory itself is based on the fact that "the red is absolute and has to be accepted at face-value". If ErikaBall works, then ShKanonTrice does too.
Dude Xenon you forgot the disclaimer :P

Disclaimer: Erika ball theory does not prove that shkanontrice theory is false. it acknowledges that both theories are valid, and acts as a convenient alternative to shkanontrice. The fact that they're equally valid theories does not disprove erika ball theory.
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Old 2012-06-27, 19:07   Link #29395
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Okay. So. How do personalities actually switch? There are three options here:
  • Personalities are always active at all times and one simply takes control of the body. This would appear to violate the person restrictions if more personalities than Shannon and Kanon are present, and violates the notion that either can die because no personality ever actually "dies" (goes inactive). It would also somewhat violate the Logic Error, but only sort of.
  • Some personalities are dormant and others are active. At least two personalities may be active at the same time.
  • Only one personality is active and existent at a time. This seems consistent with issues like the Logic Error.
Of these, we can immediately dismiss the first as if true, it renders all the red tricks that Ryukishi supposedly used to make a non-dead person dead irrelevant, as the person never "died" anyway. So let's focus on the other two, as the philosophical problem with them is basically the same.
I think your dismissal of the first option is premature. Your problems with it can be resolved pretty easily:
1) Personalities are active and can interact with each other until they are killed off, which erases them.
2) The person limit counts bodies, not personalities.

#2 is arguably implied by the argument about Jessica having split personalities in EP3, since Battler didn't get shot down by the person limit. We can even take it a bit further, regardless of how switching happens:

Whenever Beatrice says that someone exists in a location, such as a room, or the island, she is referring to the physical location of their body. So, the statement in EP3 that "when the five victims were killed, the culprit was in the same room" means that for each victim, the body owned by the culprit and the body owned by the victim were in the same room. All bodies are trivially co-located with themselves! Therefore, since Shannon and Beatrice owned the same body at the time Beatrice murdered Shannon, they were in the same room, regardless of who was active or not!

Since Beatrice stated in EP6 that Kanon does not exist in the guest room, you might claim my theory implies that his body somehow escaped, which is impossible. But to "exist in the guest room" means for Kanon's body to be physically present. After entering the closet, Kanon lost the right to call that body his own, and so it could no longer be said to be his! Therefore, once he disappeared, "Kanon's body" wasn't physically present because he didn't have one!

How's that? Is it still in conflict with any red?
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Old 2012-06-27, 19:21   Link #29396
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Whenever Beatrice says that someone exists in a location, such as a room, or the island, she is referring to the physical location of their body. So, the statement in EP3 that "when the five victims were killed, the culprit was in the same room" means that for each victim, the body owned by the culprit and the body owned by the victim were in the same room. All bodies are trivially co-located with themselves! Therefore, since Shannon and Beatrice owned the same body at the time Beatrice murdered Shannon, they were in the same room, regardless of who was active or not!
But under #1, Beatrice cannot murder Shannon. It isn't actually possible. Shannon can't even die. She just isn't actively controlling the body. Being out of power is not the same as being dead and it is impossible to make irrevocable. Even if Shannon never appears again for the rest of the body's life, it technically doesn't mean she was irrevocably destroyed, merely that she was never reasserted. That's not the same thing as dying.
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This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2012-06-27, 19:24   Link #29397
Asuka0NK
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Well a body not existing can refer to someone being dead since Beato says that Kinzo doesn't exist since he is dead.
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Old 2012-06-27, 19:33   Link #29398
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But under #1, Beatrice cannot murder Shannon. It isn't actually possible. Shannon can't even die. She just isn't actively controlling the body.
I don't really understand. It seems to me like you've just added an arbitrary restriction that personalities can't be destroyed for some reason. If we're entertaining different models, why can't we have one where they can?
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Old 2012-06-27, 19:41   Link #29399
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I don't really understand. It seems to me like you've just added an arbitrary restriction that personalities can't be destroyed for some reason. If we're entertaining different models, why can't we have one where they can?
Because if a personality is destroyed but can be reconstituted, it isn't actually being destroyed. It's not arbitrary, it's common sense.

Everyone just immediately claims Shkanon can choose to permanently destroy one of its personalities, but there's no reason to believe it couldn't choose to do exactly the opposite. What stops it? Nothing. And Banquet suggests it's possible, as does Dawn.

If you can create something exactly as it was before at any time, you haven't permanently destroyed it.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-06-27, 19:47   Link #29400
Asuka0NK
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Why is this making me think of Beato's one spell of Remember your true form. I don't knwo why it is just making me think about that.
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