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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 37
10: Amazing... 5 17.86%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 7 25.00%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 9 32.14%
7 out of 10: Good... 3 10.71%
6 out of 10: Average... 1 3.57%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 1 3.57%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 1 3.57%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 1 3.57%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-26, 11:13   Link #101
justsomeguy
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Or you could (try to) exhaust their military resources/morale. You know, how wars are USUALLY fought?
Wars are USUALLY fought with people who know when to give up and negotiate for favorable terms. You've already dismissed such civilities. They've already fought for 70+ years, with waves after waves of ever stronger and more numerous units. And others have already mentioned that the Vagans don't give up (to the point where we see operators stay at their stations in Ambat even after the self destruct was set). Not going to happen. If they don't give up, genocide will be the end result even if not the intent.
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Old 2012-06-26, 12:35   Link #102
ReddyRedWolf
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Or you kill the government and occupy them.

But thing here is as incompetent a leader Ezelcant is his potential replacement is worse. That fat guy wont be pussyfooting like Ezelcant was.



The reveal that Vegans have multiple colonies bring to light what Ezelcant said to young Zeheart of stopping wars and bringing peace. He didn't mean the Earth Sphere. He meant the Mars Sphere.

Earth Sphere has been at peace for a hundred years till Vegans came back. The resource shortages would lead the Mars colonies to raid and fight each other.

Ezelcant gave them a convenient enemy. 10 years before the fall of Colony Angel Ezelcant got hold of a piece of EXA-DB this probably the time of him consolidating his power base.

Ezelcant for intents is a dictator. Holding on to power all this time. Extending his life using cold sleep.
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Old 2012-06-26, 12:43   Link #103
Revolutionist
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Also for "any rational thinking" you seem to be forgetting the fact that everybody rationalizes these things differently based on their values beliefs and setting etc (For examples we hate suicide bombers in the middle east yet to those ppl its one of the highest acts of faith to their god)
This statement is completely false. The people of the ME hate suicide bombers as much as the rest of normal human beings. The only ones who see it in that light are the twisted fucks using religion to further their own political and personal agenda, and the poor idiot stupid enough to blow himself up and kill innocents because "god" told him so. The Quran does not condone violence, or murder, and it says that killing one innocent is as bad as killing thousands, even god himself. But, like the Bible, it has parts that can be interpreted a certain way to mean something. That's the issue with religion and not just ME religion, but all religion in general. If God is good, and wants you to do good, then how can you do evil in his name? It doesn't take a genius to figure out.
00 portrayed this perfectly in S1 with Setsuna, Ali and the whole Azadistan arch...You'd be surprised how many christians would fall for this were some sick mind to tell them to go out and murder people and suicide to kill. This is the main issue with religion, it teaches people to act like sheep. the thinking and moral compass does not depend on the person, but rather god. You think like god/allah/jehova, etc wants you to think, and you do what he tells you. If he says is fine then it doesn't matter if what you're doing is fucked up because god ordered it. It's all very irrational and honestly, quite stupid.
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Old 2012-06-27, 03:22   Link #104
Dengar
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If only the world was as simple as you say, and you could just "think like a normal person" and "stop being stupid". It really isn't that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Wars are USUALLY fought with people who know when to give up and negotiate for favorable terms. You've already dismissed such civilities. They've already fought for 70+ years, with waves after waves of ever stronger and more numerous units. And others have already mentioned that the Vagans don't give up (to the point where we see operators stay at their stations in Ambat even after the self destruct was set). Not going to happen. If they don't give up, genocide will be the end result even if not the intent.
Explain to me how exhausting military resources is the same thing as genociding noncombatants?
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Old 2012-06-27, 06:24   Link #105
ReddyRedWolf
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Explain to me how exhausting military resources is the same thing as genociding noncombatants?
Not exactly genocide but targeting civilians still. Remember the Dolittle Raid?

"The Japanese people had been told they were invulnerable ... An attack on the Japanese homeland would cause confusion in the minds of the Japanese people and sow doubt about the reliability of their leaders. There was a second, and equally important, psychological reason for this attack ... Americans badly needed a morale boost."

The damage was negligible but civilians were hit which resulted to some Japanese naval forces to be called back home.

You see all this time Vegans were safe in the knowledge that what they do to Earthers and colonists wont visit them.

Ordinary German and Japanese civilians thought this way till it was them who was being bombed.

In some German officers the prospect of loosing the war led to treason against their leader.
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Old 2012-06-27, 08:26   Link #106
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In case you didn't notice, both Germany and Japan, and their citizens, are still around today.
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Old 2012-06-27, 12:01   Link #107
Dark Wing
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In case you didn't notice, both Germany and Japan, and their citizens, are still around today.
He wasn't talking about genocide but rather hitting them where it hurts their pride and lowering the will to fight.
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Old 2012-06-27, 12:34   Link #108
Nvis
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Why can't Vagan just move away from Mars to avoid Mars Rays?
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Old 2012-06-27, 12:43   Link #109
Rising Dragon
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The only place they could go to would be Earth, whom they're completely unwilling to trust in the first place.
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Old 2012-06-27, 13:25   Link #110
ReddyRedWolf
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Why can't Vagan just move away from Mars to avoid Mars Rays?
When we first heard the UE were actually Martian colonists we learned Mars was targeted for exploitation of resources. Besides the terraforming attempt we learn later.
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Old 2012-06-27, 15:55   Link #111
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
He wasn't talking about genocide but rather hitting them where it hurts their pride and lowering the will to fight.
For the record even after the Navy and the Air Force were decimated, the Japanese were willing to fight to the last man and take as many Americans with them to the grave as possible. It was only when the Americans nuked two of their cities (which means they wouldn't have to invade)and the entry of the Soviet Union did the Emperor finally came forth and offered his surrender.

With Germany, the war wasn't over till the Soviets smashed into Berlin and Hitler committed suicide.

Sometimes it almost goes to the near destruction of a nation or a group of people before a war ends.

In this case though the Vagans are far away from the Federation to begin with anyways. I wonder how much time passed when Kio was captured to meeting Ezcelant though.
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Old 2012-06-27, 19:01   Link #112
Revolutionist
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Is it really that difficult to see where the Vagans are coming from and understand why they've done what they've done?

Ezelcant couldn't be any clearer when he explained it to Kio and to the audience. So much death pretty much desensitized them to it.

take that kid Deen for example, he seems to have lost his parents and soon he'll have to bury his sister, after he watches her die slowly. When he grows up he's not gonna give a shit if some Earther gets blow up, besides, in his eyes that's more merciful than what the people he loved experienced. Would that make him evil? I'd say a victim of his environment.

Why do Vagans fight to the death? Because they're evil monsters? Couldn't it be that they see they have no future and their children will have no future unless they fight? I mean, they survive the war and go back home to mars to start a family and watch some or all of their kids die a slow, painful death....
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Old 2012-06-28, 05:52   Link #113
Znozzy
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Is it really that difficult to see where the Vagans are coming from and understand why they've done what they've done?

Ezelcant couldn't be any clearer when he explained it to Kio and to the audience. So much death pretty much desensitized them to it.

take that kid Deen for example, he seems to have lost his parents and soon he'll have to bury his sister, after he watches her die slowly. When he grows up he's not gonna give a shit if some Earther gets blow up, besides, in his eyes that's more merciful than what the people he loved experienced. Would that make him evil? I'd say a victim of his environment.

Why do Vagans fight to the death? Because they're evil monsters? Couldn't it be that they see they have no future and their children will have no future unless they fight? I mean, they survive the war and go back home to mars to start a family and watch some or all of their kids die a slow, painful death....
The only person at blame for the Vagan's current deaths are Ezelcant himself, the federation offered Peace negotiations several times, as mentioned in Gen2.

I seriously have a hard time understanding why people in here keep arguing while completely ignoring things said in the actual show
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Old 2012-06-28, 06:31   Link #114
monster
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The only person at blame for the Vagan's current deaths are Ezelcant himself, the federation offered Peace negotiations several times, as mentioned in Gen2.

I seriously have a hard time understanding why people in here keep arguing while completely ignoring things said in the actual show
As far as I know, the show hasn't said much up to this point. Peace offering does not mean a cure for their illness or a guarantee that the Vagans would have a place back in the Earth sphere.

If all the peace talk amounts to is the Vagans remaining in the Mars sphere, then the Vagans have a reason to reject it.
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Old 2012-06-28, 07:08   Link #115
ReddyRedWolf
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As far as I know, the show hasn't said much up to this point. Peace offering does not mean a cure for their illness or a guarantee that the Vagans would have a place back in the Earth sphere.

If the all peace talk amounts to the Vagans remaining in the Mars sphere, then the Vagans have a reason to reject it.
Or the Vegans are aiming for winner take all. The disillusion of the Federation and occupation of Earth sphere.

Let the Federation delude themselves they can solve this diplomatically while they laugh at them.

Hitler has done this to Chamberlain.

The Federation as seen with the first generation chapter does not control the Earth sphere. Colonies independently rule themselves and can refuse Federation military presence.

We know prior to the Silver Chalice treaty there were alliances vying for supremacy. Euba and Zalam are some of them. Whether the Federation participated in this war or stayed neutral we don't know.

What we do know is that Vegans blames "Earthers" for their state. This reminds me of Star Trek Enterprise episode Terra Nova where descendants of the original colonist hardly knowing Earth and blaming them for what happened to them.

Vegan civilians hardly know Earthers and Earth sphere colonists yet make assumptions they live the good life. Taking what should be theirs by birthright.

Of course we've seen in the Fardain arc there is still haves and have nots in Earth sphere.

For all intents to Vegans Earthers are aliens. Propaganda by Ezelcant isn't helping that.

In turn after a century of peace people like Flit see Vegans as uncivilized barbarians. Their callous actions not winning sympathy points.
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Old 2012-06-28, 07:23   Link #116
monster
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Of course we've seen in the Fardain arc there is still haves and have nots in Earth sphere.
I don't see economic inequality as a major issue in this series.
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Old 2012-06-28, 08:13   Link #117
ReddyRedWolf
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I don't see economic inequality as a major issue in this series.
Ezelcant eating lavish food while his people only has bread and soup. One of his commanders is fat. We already have evidence of preferential treatment of Magicians 8. This means much like North Korea Vegan has a military first policy.

Vegans see Ezelcant as a god. They are thoroughly brainwashed and ignorant of the outside.
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Old 2012-06-28, 11:22   Link #118
monster
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Ezelcant eating lavish food while his people only has bread and soup. One of his commanders is fat. We already have evidence of preferential treatment of Magicians 8. This means much like North Korea Vegan has a military first policy.

Vegans see Ezelcant as a god. They are thoroughly brainwashed and ignorant of the outside.
That may or may not be true, but it still doesn't mean that "unfair" distribution of wealth is the motivation behind the Vagans attacking the Earth sphere. That simply has never been brought up as a major issue.
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Old 2012-06-28, 11:57   Link #119
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
As far as I know, the show hasn't said much up to this point. Peace offering does not mean a cure for their illness or a guarantee that the Vagans would have a place back in the Earth sphere.

If all the peace talk amounts to is the Vagans remaining in the Mars sphere, then the Vagans have a reason to reject it.
but that's all speculation, peace = both sides find peace, yeah? its too bad they never developed on that at all, the fed's have been losing grounds nonstop over the show, i'd say the peace offers was pretty good for both sides, but thats speculation aswell.

This show barely give us any background stories at all, other than " they refused it " and Ezelcant going " Being Vagan is suffering " when its his own damn fault for causing it in the first place
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Old 2012-06-28, 12:10   Link #120
monster
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Ezelcant going " Being Vagan is suffering " when its his own damn fault for causing it in the first place
Ezelcant wasn't the cause of the Vagans' suffering. He may have prolonged their suffering with his decisions, but until the show actually says more, that has yet to be determined.
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