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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 37
10: Amazing... 5 17.86%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 7 25.00%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 9 32.14%
7 out of 10: Good... 3 10.71%
6 out of 10: Average... 1 3.57%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 1 3.57%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 1 3.57%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 1 3.57%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-28, 13:19   Link #121
Revolutionist
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Unbelievable.

Ezelcant is responsible for the Vagans' suffering? The guy lost his own son, and is dying. How can he be selfish and out of touch with his people? He is obviously not fighting for his own personal ambitions or future...What is he fighting for if not to help Vagans in their plight?

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completely ignoring things said in the actual show
funny coming from you, someone who has ignored pretty much everything that's been said in the show judging by your comments...

All some of you seem to care about is the goddamn colonies that he blew up...seriously get over that already. Besides, we could argue that those people's blood is in the hands of the cowardly federation officers who would rather save their hides than risk their lives to save civilians like that guy from Gen1. Ezelcant gave them the chance to save themselves, a chance that Grodek took, but others may not have...

and LOL @ Ezelcant eating lavish food. All I saw was SOUP and Pizza, there weren't 5 different kinds of meats, or any fruits, vegetables, and such on the table. That's hardly a lavish meal. It was properly presented though, but it wasn't anything out of the ordinary. The food they serve in the Diva is a hell of a lot more varied and lavish and what Ezelcant eas eating..
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Old 2012-06-28, 14:29   Link #122
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Ezelcant wasn't the cause of the Vagans' suffering. He may have prolonged their suffering with his decisions, but until the show actually says more, that has yet to be determined.
True, he didn't cause it, but he isnt doing anything to put an end to it either.

He is currently the Vagan's leader, he could've ended the suffering by atleast accepting the peace offers or hell, have a peace talk with Flit who tried to clear the Federation of corrupt politicians, instead of starting a 60-70+ year long war.

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Unbelievable.

funny coming from you, someone who has ignored pretty much everything that's been said in the show judging by your comments...
care to point out what i've missed? if anything, i remember the small details people tend to forget/ignore for the sake of their own arguments

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All some of you seem to care about is the goddamn colonies that he blew up...seriously get over that already. Besides, we could argue that those people's blood is in the hands of the cowardly federation officers who would rather save their hides than risk their lives to save civilians like that guy from Gen1. Ezelcant gave them the chance to save themselves, a chance that Grodek took, but others may not have...
Two wrongs doesnt make it right. Just because your elders volunteered to colonize Mars doesnt justify murdering civilians who had nothing to do with said project that happened 200? years ago.



Quote:
and LOL @ Ezelcant eating lavish food. All I saw was SOUP and Pizza, there weren't 5 different kinds of meats, or any fruits, vegetables, and such on the table. That's hardly a lavish meal. It was properly presented though, but it wasn't anything out of the ordinary. The food they serve in the Diva is a hell of a lot more varied and lavish and what Ezelcant eas eating..
if Bridge McFatty shared his foodsupply the Vagan's wouldnt be starving
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Old 2012-06-28, 15:22   Link #123
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True, he didn't cause it, but he isnt doing anything to put an end to it either.
He's fighting to get back the Earth for his people. How is that not doing anything to end their suffering? Taking back the Earth means they'll be able to mvoe there and subsequently end their suffering.

Quote:
He is currently the Vagan's leader, he could've ended the suffering by atleast accepting the peace offers or hell, have a peace talk with Flit who tried to clear the Federation of corrupt politicians, instead of starting a 60-70+ year long war..
Again, it's been said here more than once, a peace treaty does not guarantee anything. For all we know the terms of what the Federation offered them were not acceptable to the Vagans, like "Let's cease hostilities, but you have to stay there on Mars", which is what most likely happened. How would such a treaty end the suffering? They have said time and again that to Vagans sadness is not death, it's not being able to live like human beings. Taken straight from episode 37 btw...They aren't suffering because of the war, in fact most Vagans seem to be willing to die for their cause of going back to Earth. To them suffering is staying in Mars, watching their loved ones die slow painful deaths.

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care to point out what i've missed? if anything, i remember the small details people tend to forget/ignore for the sake of their own arguments
see my comments above.

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Two wrongs doesnt make it right. Just because your elders volunteered to colonize Mars doesnt justify murdering civilians who had nothing to do with said project that happened 200? years ago.
They didn't just volunteer to colonize Mars. They were also abandoned in a hostile environment with a deadly disease rampaging through their ranks taking their loved ones. So while it is wrong to kill civilians like they've done, their war is not totally unjustified. In fact I personally think Vagans are a heck of a lot mroe justified in their struggle than the Zeons ever were, for example.
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Old 2012-06-28, 15:53   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post


They didn't just volunteer to colonize Mars. They were also abandoned in a hostile environment with a deadly disease rampaging through their ranks taking their loved ones. So while it is wrong to kill civilians like they've done, their war is not totally unjustified. In fact I personally think Vagans are a heck of a lot mroe justified in their struggle than the Zeons ever were, for example.
We learn that 10 years before the war Ezelcant manage to acquire EXA-DB from Earth sphere.

In the proceeding decades Vegans managed to hide themselves on Earth.

Ezelcant always had the capacity to bring them back to Earth.

Look at the way Vegans talk about Earth in religious wonder. Ezelcant credited in saying their souls return to Earth. Earth is a utopia.

Ezelcant has a cult personality with a cult around him.

The point of the war was never to bring them back to Earth. They could have done that a long time ago.

What Ezelcant wants is for Earthers to experience the same suffering as Vegans did.

To see whether Earthers are worthy to survive whereas Vegans are not.

The guy has a god complex.

The way he sees Kio as a replacement for his son shows he is not mentally stable.
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Old 2012-06-28, 16:55   Link #125
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No. He found the EXA-DB while investigating Federation corruption; that in no way implies they found it in the Earth Sphere. The EXA-DB asteroid could be anywhere between Earth and Mars, and given what happened to the Bisidian Pirates in Memories of Sid, chances are the EXA-DB asteroid doesn't have a fixed position and likely moves around.

As for bringing people back to Earth, the Vagans seem to have an incredibly sizeable population, you can't bring them back bit by bit secretly. Too many people would die in the meantime and it'd probably create strife between the "lucky ones" who get chosen to go to Earth and the people still stuck waiting their turn. Ideally you'd need to bring them to Earth in mass--and the Federation would most likely see that as an invasion. Combine that with all the paranoia between the Vagans and Earthers, and the desensitization of the Vagans, and you'd have a war.

Having the EXA-DB fragment just means the Vagans would have a chance at winning whatever war that gets started, because war at this point was likely inevitable.
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Old 2012-06-28, 17:15   Link #126
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As for bringing people back to Earth, the Vagans seem to have an incredibly sizeable population, you can't bring them back bit by bit secretly.
Whoever said they'd have to do it secretly.

Ezelcant could've just contacted the media and said Mars Sucks we're returning home.

Heck he had blackmail material for the prime minister in the 2nd chapter.

Ezelcant actions is not one of a rational person.

Though I could just point out the writers placed themselves in a corner. Three chapters of making Vegans utter monsters and this ep "Here a sympathetic loli".

Armed to the teeth with no food for the civilians. Does this remind you of anything?
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Old 2012-06-28, 17:48   Link #127
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Whoever said they'd have to do it secretly.

Ezelcant could've just contacted the media and said Mars Sucks we're returning home.

Heck he had blackmail material for the prime minister in the 2nd chapter.

Ezelcant actions is not one of a rational person.

Though I could just point out the writers placed themselves in a corner. Three chapters of making Vegans utter monsters and this ep "Here a sympathetic loli".

Armed to the teeth with no food for the civilians. Does this remind you of anything?
What world do you live in?!

You don't just go to another person's territory and say "here I am, our country sucks so we came here. deal with it. The US has been the most open minded country in the world with respect to immigration, it used to be that you got on a boat, came here and they took you in. Now you need to go through a process and if you just show up you're an illegal immigrant which the government and most of the people disapprove of...
Things in the real world aren't so easy and merry.
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Old 2012-06-28, 17:58   Link #128
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Let's get a couple things straight here since some people are ignoring them.

1. The Federation top command abandoned the expedition and written them off as they all died.

2. Some survived and created what would be known as Vagan.

3. Sometime down the road Ezcelant came across some data from the EXA and started creating the Vagan MS which we have seen is like an F-22 Fighter fighting against a Biplane.

4. Ezcelant also started infilitrating the Federation at the same time and according to Flit he was able to blackmail the Prime Minister whose family was involved in writing off the Vagans in the first place. This allowed him to infilitrate more deeply into the Federation which we have seen is quite extensive.

5. The Vagans were also able to deploy a strong army in a hidden base and so forth.

6. The Vagans are able to deploy a massive weapon of mass destruction right in front of one of Earth's most powerful defenses.

7. The Vagans can hide an army of giant robots in major cities and next to bases.

So I really don't see how it is impossible for the Vagans to come back in large numbers. They are already capable of doing it with massive military forces and weapons of mass destruction and have extensive infilitration capabilities.

A reasonable and logical way of handling it would've been to decapitate the Federation early on, throwing it into chaos, and then take over from the inside rather than just declaring war. That's part of the problem I see with the Vagan.

With Ezcelant, it's not about just revenge apparently it's about testing the Earthlings who the majority had no idea what had happened to the Vagans in the first place.

I don't see how a kid living in Washington for example could be critized as a jackass and evil person who deserves to be tested in a life and death situation by a kid who grew up in Iraq and lived through the various wars there when he's probably not even aware of it in the first place.

And for a group of people that are dying, they awfully have a lot of patience and manpower. It's just weird....

Quote:
Having the EXA-DB fragment just means the Vagans would have a chance at winning whatever war that gets started, because war at this point was likely inevitable.
Regardless though it took only 3 Vagan suits back then to decimate an entire colony plus its garrison.
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Old 2012-06-28, 18:39   Link #129
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Let's get a couple things straight here since some people are ignoring them.

1. The Federation top command abandoned the expedition and written them off as they all died.

2. Some survived and created what would be known as Vagan.

3. Sometime down the road Ezcelant came across some data from the EXA and started creating the Vagan MS which we have seen is like an F-22 Fighter fighting against a Biplane.

4. Ezcelant also started infilitrating the Federation at the same time and according to Flit he was able to blackmail the Prime Minister whose family was involved in writing off the Vagans in the first place. This allowed him to infilitrate more deeply into the Federation which we have seen is quite extensive.

5. The Vagans were also able to deploy a strong army in a hidden base and so forth.

6. The Vagans are able to deploy a massive weapon of mass destruction right in front of one of Earth's most powerful defenses.

7. The Vagans can hide an army of giant robots in major cities and next to bases.

So I really don't see how it is impossible for the Vagans to come back in large numbers. They are already capable of doing it with massive military forces and weapons of mass destruction and have extensive infilitration capabilities.

A reasonable and logical way of handling it would've been to decapitate the Federation early on, throwing it into chaos, and then take over from the inside rather than just declaring war. That's part of the problem I see with the Vagan.


With Ezcelant, it's not about just revenge apparently it's about testing the Earthlings who the majority had no idea what had happened to the Vagans in the first place.

I don't see how a kid living in Washington for example could be critized as a jackass and evil person who deserves to be tested in a life and death situation by a kid who grew up in Iraq and lived through the various wars there when he's probably not even aware of it in the first place.

And for a group of people that are dying, they awfully have a lot of patience and manpower. It's just weird....



Regardless though it took only 3 Vagan suits back then to decimate an entire colony plus its garrison.
Then we wouldn't have a story now would we :P

AGE is poorly written, that's a fact we gotta live with.
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Old 2012-06-28, 18:56   Link #130
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It never cease to amaze me how some equate infiltrating at most thousands of highly trained military personel, prepared to hide, with bringing back to Earth a civilian population, one that would hope to live in the open, and would number in the tens if not hundred millions.
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Old 2012-06-28, 19:02   Link #131
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And it never ceases to amaze me how some completely ignore the fact that one does not simply hide 20m tall giant robots next to military bases, inside major cities, or even bring a mass weapons of destruction right next to one of the Federation's most powerful bases.

Not to mention they had the Prime Minister and other Federation officers in their pockets as well.

If they can do that over a hundred years why they can't bring in refugees in cold sleep is beyond me. There is no way Ezcelant is simply just warring against the Federation and NOT have developed something to bring them over.
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Old 2012-06-28, 19:21   Link #132
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because millions > a few hundred? You can easily forge identities and hide a few hundred soldiers, but you can't hide millions of people and the giant transport ships needed to transfer them over. Do you know how big of a logistical nightmare it would be to transport the people to earth, then find them housing, jobs, and identities? Besides, people would catch on to massive rapid influx of strange people that suddenly just popped out out of nowhere...
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Old 2012-06-28, 20:40   Link #133
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Fact one: the Nation of Vagan: it has been repeatedly exposed in the show that Vagans see themselves as a Nation, defined by being abandoned to die on Mars by the Federation, with its own particular culture and mindset. As a consequence, to them Earthners are Aliens, and they have no desire to covertly reintegrate the Earth Sphere.

Fact two: the population of Vagan: it numbers in millions, the equivalent of several if not many colonies of the Earth Sphere. Notice that each Vagan colony would be much more densely populated from the way they have been depicted.

Fact three: large covert operations are limited to space, as shown by the whole Downes operation, infiltrating the atmosphere in numbers is a pretty big deal.

Fact four: Even if we assume the whole thing was logistically possible to do in secrecy, to move a fixed, conservatively sized Vagan population over the course of 200 years (which is absolutely ridiculous by the way), would imply a flow of about 1000 people per day. So you'd have an equivalent of totally unknow strangers showing up at the colonies spaceports every day...

Fact five: Vagan has superior military technology, and Might is Right, thus the Vagan's leader cannot make light of his people suffering and reasonably ask them to become Mexican illegal immigrants instead of The Chosen People subjugating the Promised Land.
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Old 2012-06-28, 20:58   Link #134
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Fact five: Vagan has superior military technology, and Might is Right, thus the Vagan's leader cannot make light of his people suffering and reasonably ask them to become Mexican illegal immigrants instead of The Chosen People subjugating the Promised Land.
Yet said Vegan leader sits on his ass and does not take a decisive victory. All for the reason of testing Earthers and giving them suffering.

This isn't about the survival of Vegans anymore. It is about playing god.

Does Earthers deserve to live whereas why Vegans do not.
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Old 2012-06-29, 01:18   Link #135
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What Ezelcant wants is for Earthers to experience the same suffering as Vegans did.
And here I was thinking that we've already established that this isn't the case. >_>
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Old 2012-06-29, 22:14   Link #136
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because millions > a few hundred? You can easily forge identities and hide a few hundred soldiers, but you can't hide millions of people and the giant transport ships needed to transfer them over. Do you know how big of a logistical nightmare it would be to transport the people to earth, then find them housing, jobs, and identities? Besides, people would catch on to massive rapid influx of strange people that suddenly just popped out out of nowhere...
And a fact that a lot of people love to ignore is that the Vagans had excellent infilitration of the Federation's upper echelon. It is not that farfetched for them to dummy up records, screw up troop deployments, control the media, etc. That or kill the Federation from within so when the Vagans start coming home the Federation would be unable to mount any counter attack.

And regardless of all this and that by the rest of the arguments that means that the Vagans have no chance of winning this war because they'll never ever be able to transport all of their people back to Earth.

Yes Ezcelant is testing the Earthlings but I cannot see the Vagans not putting any effort in preparing for the time when they'd be able to move their people back to Earth. If they are for that matter.

If it turns out that all of their efforts have been focused on military development...well then how the hell do they expect to take everybody home with them to begin with? The war is a lost cause.
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Old 2012-06-30, 11:39   Link #137
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And a fact that a lot of people love to ignore is that the Vagans had excellent infilitration of the Federation's upper echelon. It is not that farfetched for them to dummy up records, screw up troop deployments, control the media, etc. That or kill the Federation from within so when the Vagans start coming home the Federation would be unable to mount any counter attack.
It can't be that excellent since Flit was able to easily expose and overthrow the collaborators. You also can't just move a large number of people carrying an illness without being noticed by the rest of the population.
Quote:
And regardless of all this and that by the rest of the arguments that means that the Vagans have no chance of winning this war because they'll never ever be able to transport all of their people back to Earth.
The Vagans could transport their people, just not in secret.
Quote:
Yes Ezcelant is testing the Earthlings but I cannot see the Vagans not putting any effort in preparing for the time when they'd be able to move their people back to Earth. If they are for that matter.

If it turns out that all of their efforts have been focused on military development...well then how the hell do they expect to take everybody home with them to begin with? The war is a lost cause.
One thing I've agreed with you in the past is that the Vagans should've used force and won the war from the beginning. But, even in the current state, they still have the potential to win the war.
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Old 2012-06-30, 15:03   Link #138
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I definitely agree they should have won the war early on when their technological advantage was at it's peak, before Flit even built the Gundam. The problem with that is that if they did it that way, there'd be no story to tell. It's the writers' fault ultimately.
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Old 2012-06-30, 22:31   Link #139
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I definitely agree they should have won the war early on when their technological advantage was at it's peak, before Flit even built the Gundam. The problem with that is that if they did it that way, there'd be no story to tell. It's the writers' fault ultimately.
Yeah poor story telling. Writers saying Ezelcant playing handicap to test Earthers. Earthers he says doesn't understand Vegans.

What Zeheart said about X-Rounders being a step back in evolution coming from Ezelcant is pretty telling.

From the looks of it in one angle Ezelcant is a Social Darwinist. He likely believes conflict promotes progress. Because it is a truth among Vegans... The strong survive.

Look at the Earth Sphere. It has technologically regressed in a century. With good reason. Warfare was approaching a Lensman arms race.

Ezelcant is trying to stop what he believes to be stagnation... By promoting war.

As such pitting Euba and Zalam against each other with old MS tech makes sense.
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