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Old 2012-06-29, 20:45   Link #1021
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by bones View Post
No, defeating her in combat does nothing, it just proves that Tatsumi is stronger than her. She might change sides because of that but her core beliefs won't change at all. If the author is really going to pair them up romantically, it will be interesting to see how he does it without it being shallow or an asspull.
All Tatsumi has to do is defeat Esdeses without killing her. Esdeses becomes the weaker one but still survives. There, she just became the counterexample to her own way of life.
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Old 2012-06-29, 21:00   Link #1022
NeutralZero
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The only way to defeat an opponent without killing them is to be stronger... with a large margin at that...
If it'll be a group fight then it would be more impossible for that to happen...
Aside from Tatsumi who came to know her and bond with her to some degree... no single member of Night raid would spare her or would go for the kill in battle against her...
mostly Akame...
If only Tatsumi could pull of the same stunt Zen did in Medaka...
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Old 2012-06-29, 21:25   Link #1023
bones
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
All Tatsumi has to do is defeat Esdeses without killing her. Esdeses becomes the weaker one but still survives. There, she just became the counterexample to her own way of life.
Except that in her worldview, the winner gets to do anything they want to the loser which also includes sparing the loser so your counterexample is invalid. Esedese's philosophy is not show no mercy, it's might rules.
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Old 2012-06-29, 21:28   Link #1024
OverSeer
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The empire has another strong general does it not? Budou or something like that? and some chapters ago Someone said Esdese rivals his power does it mean he is a strong as her?, but why was she given title "The Empire's strongest"

perhaps he has a role to play?
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Old 2012-06-29, 22:03   Link #1025
ReaperxKingx
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Being a rival doesn't always mean they are equal. Both may have the same goal and constantly fight each other, but doesn't mean much unless we get all the details especially the results. Its may be like Oklahoma vs Iowa State in football, Esdes and this Budou might have had a lopsided rivalry.
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Old 2012-06-29, 23:02   Link #1026
Xacual
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Budou is the Grand General or whatever in charge of the Capital judging by what was said about him in some of the conversations between Prime Minister and Esdese. Esdese also told Tatsumi not to try to escape because Budou's men are well trained.
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Old 2012-06-30, 00:11   Link #1027
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by Xacual View Post
Budou is the Grand General or whatever in charge of the Capital judging by what was said about him in some of the conversations between Prime Minister and Esdese. Esdese also told Tatsumi not to try to escape because Budou's men are well trained.
Yeah, his rank sounds like he's the equivalent to a Marshal/Field Marshal, basically the head of the army. PM seems to want keep him out affairs of state and go behind his back/bending the orders he gives like in this chapter.

Last edited by Iron Maw; 2012-06-30 at 02:07.
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Old 2012-06-30, 01:09   Link #1028
endarion88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeutralZero View Post
The only way to defeat an opponent without killing them is to be stronger... with a large margin at that...
If it'll be a group fight then it would be more impossible for that to happen...
Aside from Tatsumi who came to know her and bond with her to some degree... no single member of Night raid would spare her or would go for the kill in battle against her...
mostly Akame...

If only Tatsumi could pull of the same stunt Zen did in Medaka...
as if you could blame them for this...... seriously to me the only jaegers who should survive is bors, and not becouse he have a family but becouse he's the only one who admit he do orrrible things and is not totaly fine whit it and don't try to cover it up whit justice s**t like justice girl or wave
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Old 2012-06-30, 01:42   Link #1029
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by bones View Post
Except that in her worldview, the winner gets to do anything they want to the loser which also includes sparing the loser so your counterexample is invalid. Esedese's philosophy is not show no mercy, it's might rules.
Esdes philosophy does include not showing mercy. In one of the previous chapters, she said 'i'm long on compassion but short on mercy'
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Old 2012-06-30, 01:54   Link #1030
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by bones View Post
Except that in her worldview, the winner gets to do anything they want to the loser which also includes sparing the loser so your counterexample is invalid. Esedese's philosophy is not show no mercy, it's might rules.
No, it would not include sparing the loser. If showing kindness to the weak is part of Esdeses' morals, then she would have done so instead of killing and torturing them all. There is a reason why she states that she has little capacity for mercy.

If Tatsumi were to spare her out of kindness and compassion, that would be very different from what she sees in the world. The only reason Esdeses spares someone is A) she has some use for them like she did with General Rivers or B) to torture them.
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Old 2012-06-30, 02:14   Link #1031
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by endarion88 View Post
as if you could blame them for this...... seriously to me the only jaegers who should survive is bors, and not becouse he have a family but becouse he's the only one who admit he do orrrible things and is not totaly fine whit it and don't try to cover it up whit justice s**t like justice girl or wave
Eh?

Last time I checked, before Wave transferred to the Jaegers he was in the Navy guarding coast towns from cutthroats and monsters. He hasn't done anything he needs to admit or be ashamed of.

Seryu other-hand, does indeed have a warped sense of justice, but it's not like she killing people innocent people for loitering or anything.
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Old 2012-06-30, 02:14   Link #1032
bones
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Esdes philosophy does include not showing mercy. In one of the previous chapters, she said 'i'm long on compassion but short on mercy'
You're taking what I'm saying out of context, I wasn't talking about whether she shows mercy or not. What I meant was the difference between the belief of showing no mercy and that of might rules. A person who shows no mercy will kill anyone who opposes them but the person who believes in survival of the fittest or might rules will not necessarily kill their enemies when they defeat them.
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Old 2012-06-30, 02:21   Link #1033
bones
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
No, it would not include sparing the loser. If showing kindness to the weak is part of Esdeses' morals, then she would have done so instead of killing and torturing them all. There is a reason why she states that she has little capacity for mercy.

If Tatsumi were to spare her out of kindness and compassion, that would be very different from what she sees in the world. The only reason Esdeses spares someone is A) she has some use for them like she did with General Rivers or B) to torture them.
If Tatsumi were to spare her, she would view it through the filter of her beliefs. She has no reason to believe in Tatsumi's kindness and compassion. Although the scenario you described will never happen as one of the rules of the manga so far is that when two Teigu users fight, one of them will die. I don't see the author changing the rules of his story arbitrarily just to get Tatsumi and Esdese together.
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Old 2012-06-30, 02:40   Link #1034
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by bones View Post
You're taking what I'm saying out of context, I wasn't talking about whether she shows mercy or not. What I meant was the difference between the belief of showing no mercy and that of might rules. A person who shows no mercy will kill anyone who opposes them but the person who believes in survival of the fittest or might rules will not necessarily kill their enemies when they defeat them.
She has BOTH philosophies, not just one like you're saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bones View Post
If Tatsumi were to spare her, she would view it through the filter of her beliefs. She has no reason to believe in Tatsumi's kindness and compassion. Although the scenario you described will never happen as one of the rules of the manga so far is that when two Teigu users fight, one of them will die. I don't see the author changing the rules of his story arbitrarily just to get Tatsumi and Esdese together.
The reason for her to believe in Tatsumi's kindness and compassion is all the time she's spent with him so far.

And a lot of people take the whole '2 come in, only 1 leaves' rule as some immutable law of the universe or something. Wave and Tatsumi fought, they both survived -_- It just means that with the power level involved with teigus, it's just much more likely one of the parties will die in a serious fight, but then again considering in serious fights, usually 1 party dies ANYWAY....
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Old 2012-06-30, 02:40   Link #1035
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by bones View Post
If Tatsumi were to spare her, she would view it through the filter of her beliefs. She has no reason to believe in Tatsumi's kindness and compassion. Although the scenario you described will never happen as one of the rules of the manga so far is that when two Teigu users fight, one of them will die. I don't see the author changing the rules of his story arbitrarily just to get Tatsumi and Esdese together.
Not If he's not trying to kill her:

Spoiler for size:


And death normally happens in Teigu fights because they're very overpowered, the fighters have a diffcult time holding back.
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Old 2012-06-30, 02:43   Link #1036
evil|plushie
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In other words, in a fight where there are 2 people intent on killing each other, 1 will die. It's like 'duh'
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Old 2012-06-30, 02:43   Link #1037
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by bones View Post
If Tatsumi were to spare her, she would view it through the filter of her beliefs. She has no reason to believe in Tatsumi's kindness and compassion. Although the scenario you described will never happen as one of the rules of the manga so far is that when two Teigu users fight, one of them will die. I don't see the author changing the rules of his story arbitrarily just to get Tatsumi and Esdese together.
She has no empirical to believe in Tatsumi's kindness, but she doesn't need one. Tatsumi is the guy she fell in love with. If she can't trust or have faith in him, then what's the point?

And Takahiro has bent and worked around the rules before. See how Wave is still alive, despite confronting Tatsumi with Incursio on?
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Old 2012-06-30, 02:46   Link #1038
endarion88
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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Eh?

Last time I checked, before Wave transferred to the Jaegers he was in the Navy guarding coast towns from cutthroats and monsters. He hasn't done anything he needs to admit or be ashamed of.

Seryu other-hand, does indeed have a warped sense of justice, but it's not like she killing people innocent people for loitering or anything.
wrong choice of words sorry for wave i mean he should wake up and realize he's peaceful empire is not what he think it is
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Old 2012-06-30, 03:04   Link #1039
bones
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
She has no empirical to believe in Tatsumi's kindness, but she doesn't need one. Tatsumi is the guy she fell in love with. If she can't trust or have faith in him, then what's the point?

And Takahiro has bent and worked around the rules before. See how Wave is still alive, despite confronting Tatsumi with Incursio on?
This is Esdese we're talking about right, even when she falls in love with him, it's more like she's trying to make him over rather than change herself to match him so falling in love didn't do much did it?
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Old 2012-06-30, 03:06   Link #1040
bones
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
In other words, in a fight where there are 2 people intent on killing each other, 1 will die. It's like 'duh'
Yeah duh so you accept the fact that if the both of them fight, someone's going to die?
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