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Old 2012-06-29, 03:53   Link #941
potchip
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Originally Posted by mironicus View Post
No, I am referring to the whole story and Yozora's behaviour from the beginning.

Since she began to show off being his childhood friend and realizing that this is just worth a poop she was loosing all her confidence in herself. She changed her clothing style and makes herself unattractive and she turned into an ugly duck.
Sort of like super mario bros, train of thought leaps from one platform to another, Boin Boin Boin?

Here's a thought: perhaps events can happen without a cause and effect?!

The part about Yozora changing her cloth has nothing to do with her confidence being low. It's a reveal of her personality, that her seemingly attractive outfits before were just her misinterpretation of magazine material. She's overly modest/shy.

Plus, childhood friend will always be thread - it's never resolved and can be resurrected any time by the author at will. It's basically an endless bag of tricks where random 'memories' can be pulled and make connections to current events.

As for the 'worth poop', essentially the situation is:
Yozora wants/wishes Kodaka to make a move.
Kodaka being a harem lead won't - and he would instead ask: what do you think?
And what the hell does him expect the tsun Yozora to do anyway, the predictable: it's nothing special...
And in turn, Kodaka reconciles that perhaps the past wasn't really that big a deal to either party.

The problem facing Sena for the past couple vol is that as a character she's already laid plain. There's no mystery left. So the cousin reveal, if confirmed, is welcoming development.

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Originally Posted by sky black swordman View Post
To be honest I dont get her sometimes. In vol 4 when he found out she was Sora , he asked her I think what she wanted to be call 'Yozora" or well "Sora'. So Yozora said just call me "Yozora" .
And shoot me if I manage to 'get' any women in life

THAT fickleness is to me what makes Yozora's character interesting. Extreme tsun (and the narrower type of not honest with her feelings) + selective pureness (on topics of romance for example).

Last edited by potchip; 2012-06-29 at 04:12.
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Old 2012-06-29, 04:23   Link #942
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The part about Yozora changing her cloth has nothing to do with her confidence being low. It's a reveal of her personality
But there is a connection between how she feels and how she dresses and for me that is not just a random development. And changing the clothes to plain ones after being told that she looks sexy in it is sign of a really low self-confidence. She wear that clothes all the time and only just one comment made her change her dressing style and she became modest/shy. Before that she was actually really confident about her clothes and she was acting rather natural. I guess Yozora fans must be be quiet shocked about this because she really looked attractive since this event.

This unattractive look however just fits to the situation she is just into (she had to realize that her only triumph card did not work, and like I said she has nothing more to rely on). So she just turned from a swan into an ugly duck. It's kind of funny if you see it this way: Success (beauty) - Fail (ugly).

Quote:
So the cousin reveal, if confirmed, is welcoming development.
We will probably learn more about their families and especially about Kodakas and Senas mother (I hope we will see her later).
So... what is more interesting for you? Another childhood memories from Yozora or the connection between Kodaka's and Sena's family?

Last edited by mironicus; 2012-06-29 at 06:10.
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Old 2012-06-29, 07:32   Link #943
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
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Originally Posted by roankun View Post
Um, a question to see if I'm getting this...
I think it was around the end of... Vol 4/5? That Kodaka's father called him and asked him if he's getting married to Sena or if they're even dating.
And then in the Vol 7(?), we find out that their fathers already set up the arranged marriage a long time ago.

Am I reading this right? O.o
Yes, you are reading it correctly. Any problem with that?
Well, no, I guess not. ^^; The cousin thing aside (mixed emotions), I just thought it was kinda weird that Kodaka's father would ask him about the marriage if he was the one who set it up in the first place.

Anyway, it sure seems like Rika is racking up points with Kodaka really fast now. The way I see it, it's more between her and Sena. I actually don't see Yozora as much of a competition anymore.
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Old 2012-06-29, 07:53   Link #944
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I haven't read the volume 8 yet but from my point the confession that Sena made maybe is an attempt to puss Yozora forward since she is so stacked in the past.After all Sena is one of the members along with Rika that truly care for the club and we have seen other occasions where Sena tries to befriend Yozora but ended up with her being teased.

On other hand ,maybe I am over thinking the whole situation.
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Old 2012-06-29, 08:04   Link #945
theory28
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Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
Confessing what exactly and ruining what event? The way you portray her sounds like she could be bunk mates with Yuno from Mirai Nikki. Sorry, I just don't see her as some fragile little ball of mental mess that is on the verge of going full throttle insane...

All the characters have some sort of a character flaw. Not sure why she gets singled out all the time...?
Most of the viewer character perceptions are a result of a framing problem - the easiest to understand if you think of the author as someone filming a movie or taking a photo; This person can see everything but only some of what they see is in the frame while other stuff is still there but isn't captured in the photo.


Author's original intent is to have all characters be critically flawed (and thus be why they have have few friends) but that collectively their flaws would balance/cancel each other out and thus allow the members of the group to find a place where they could develop friendships etc.

The easiest examples of this to understand are of course Yozora & Sena / Kobato & Maria, but to a lesser extent its also true of Kodaka & Sena / Kodaka & Yozora / Kodaka & Rika / Yozora & Maria.


The problem however, is their flaws are not uniformly displayed

Because most of the event focus is constrained to within the Neighbours Club you only see those parts of the frame and not what else is happening. These end up being the primary influence in how people view the characters;


e.g. Yozora and Maria's dynamic - and though it was hinted at Maria also being unpleasant, it was only properly shown in Episode 12 / Haganai Collect (or was it Universe?) that Yozora was originally nice to Maria while she was rude to her etc. Though this may have been known to the author and is particularly relevant to perception of both characterisations and relationship dynamics, its all outside the frame until the viewer/reader is made aware of it.

Additionally Sena hinted at actually being extremely unpleasant to be around (and how she views and treats everyone else around her, e.g. "everyone else is below me"/ male slaves / stepping on people / "you can lick my shoe as a reward", etc etc etc) is mentioned right at the beginning of the story and referenced at several points but is only really shown during the Swimming pool visit / guys hitting on her incident. The full scale of her behaviours though are again outside of the frame to viewers/readers because she is in a different class to Kodaka & Yozora and very little of her own class has been shown (except Yusa Aoi briefly in vol 7).

What we do see of Sena 'in-frame' of the Neighbours Club are not her original character breaking flaws (for which Yozora is meant to be her foil) but instead her moe fake "flaws" which are designed to be appealing to target anime/novel demographics such as
  • - playing gale/eroge
  • - yuri loli-obsession with Kobato

...Both of which aren't exactly considered negatives to this demographic, are played off as comedy, and are tamed by Kodaka & Yozora in any case. This can also be applied to Rika and her perversions and fujoshi traits shown while in the club in that they aren't actually "flaws" as far as target demographic is concerned and are again nerfed by Kodaka & Yozora, while her 'character breaking flaw' is separation from people (and that occurs outside of the club).


- Yozara gets singled out because her flaws are the only ones that are persistently 'in frame', as she as much as Kodaka is central to cancelling out/nerfing the flaws of the other characters in the Neighbours club and their events are always in the frame of the story.


ugh -as my first post this was supposed to be much shorter so I'm gonna cut it here - hopefully the general message of what I wanted to say got through though. May say something about the implications of Kodaka ending up with each of the girls / something about Rika being officially friend-zoned if Vol 8 rumours are true but tbh thats probably worth saving for other posts when I am less tired...

====ANSWER FOR TL;DR CROWD====
The window to the world is limited and what it focuses on is what most affects perceptions of characters.

all of the characters are flawed and should be viewed as so - this is intentional and was supposed to balance out their dynamics between each other and balance out fan perception of all the characters but isn't working as intended because not everyones flaws are getting equal focus.
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Old 2012-06-29, 08:28   Link #946
mironicus
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Anyway, it sure seems like Rika is racking up points with Kodaka really fast now.
Wasn't Rika the one who wanted to break through the status quo of the club?
And Kodaka wanted to remain the status.

Spoiler:


Spoiler:
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Old 2012-06-29, 08:29   Link #947
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I was being somewhat sarcastic as I already know why Yozara gets singled out. Mainly by Sena shippers wanting to stomp a mud hole into her while putting Sena on a pedestal. Nothing wrong with that I suppose...
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Old 2012-06-29, 08:34   Link #948
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^ The problem with that analysis is that the movie/frame is controlled by the author, and the reader/audience sees what the author wants them to see. The author can shift the focus to certain aspects of each character and magnify or downplay them according to what he is trying to portray. As such, character analysis should primarily be focused on what is actually shown to us in the novels, and if the readers end up something that the author isn't trying to portray, then that suggests that the writing is at fault (which isn't the case here).

Having said that, I agree that the characters' flaws are not equally being shown, but for a slightly different reason. I would argue that the reason for this is that the novel series is still ongoing, and it is common in light novel series to have character-centric books along the way. Yozora's time simply has not come yet.

Last edited by frivolity; 2012-06-29 at 08:49.
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Old 2012-06-29, 09:24   Link #949
theory28
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Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
I was being somewhat sarcastic as I already know why Yozara gets singled out. Mainly by Sena shippers wanting to stomp a mud hole into her while putting Sena on a pedestal. Nothing wrong with that I suppose...
I knew you were and I agree with that completely. The whole love-sena-hate-yozora vibe is what made me want to post in the first place and I actually stripped out some of what I'd written regarding that because I wanted my first post here to be more neutral.

I have no problem with people hating character X because they like character Y though — I just prefer it when the people themselves realise where that sentiment is coming from and acknowledge it.


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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
^ The problem with that analysis is that the movie/frame is controlled by the author, and the reader/audience sees what the author wants them to see. The author can shift the focus to certain aspects of each character and magnify or downplay them according to what he is trying to portray. As such, character analysis should primarily be focused on what is actually shown to us in the novels, and if the readers end up something that the author isn't trying to portray, then that suggests that the writing is at fault.

Having said that, I agree that the characters' flaws are not equally being shown, but for a slightly different reason. I would argue that the reason for this is that the novel series is still ongoing, and it is common in light novel series to have character-centric books along the way. Yozora's time simply has not come yet.

I also agree with focus being controlled by author intentionally, what your saying doesn't disprove what I said and I am not disproving what you are saying - the amount of focus the author can give to keep a story thematically and theatrically tight is limited (hence artificial methods like focusing on a character per volume of LNs as you say).

My original point wasn't that Yozora isn't getting what she deserves in terms of focus (because I also think that she won't get her own focused volumes until closer to the end - her & Kodaka's resolution will effectively end the story - someone earlier made reference to an analysis of Ichigo 100% as an example)

- my point was that the current focusing so far has referenced at the flaws in other characters and shown them briefly at times but you dont get to see the full scale of their flaws because they are occurring in places unseen. Anyways the original question was why does Yozora get pulled up for stuff and my answer was everyone was meant to be equally bad but some people's isn't on camera as much as Yozora's is so perception of her ends up being worse.

As Johnny above notes the Sena-centric crowd seem particularly likely to latch on to that -

I dont think you and I are actually disagreeing though.

=======EDIT=========
lol "someone earlier made reference" ==> as pointed out it was actually frivolity who actually posted this (I should have checked)

Last edited by theory28; 2012-06-30 at 07:35. Reason: give more credit to frivolity
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Old 2012-06-29, 09:33   Link #950
potchip
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The novel is written through the narrative of Kodaka. Himself is a neutral observer (and critically so, if not always verbally expressed). On the whole the balance of character flaws are maintained.

The anime being a different medium cannot be narrated therefore it's up to the viewer's interpretation by character's actions. Direction did not maintain balance and even then interpretations can differ.

What we have here is a mixture of audiences, those who primarily exposed to the animated form and those who have seen both (and many LN readers who've read the series before the anime therefore less influenced by it). I believe some's interpretation is wide off the mark as I could not follow the logic but that's just my opinion. When you see such leaps of logic, arguing is a pointless exercise.

It's also worthwhile noting whilst right now summaries are widely available, people can read these differently. I'm fairly aware of Kodaka's narrative given it is in itself describing Kodaka's character (and his view is just his view, which may differ widely off the mark to reality). But such interpretation of writing styles are best observed when reading as a novel on long sittings rather than chapters by chapter as released by the translaters.

Funnily enough many of Yozora's 'flaws' are also 'moe' points, which sets her apart from a somewhat more generic character like Sena. I suppose I'm too much of a hipster

I really need to get down and draw a diagram of the character interactions in this series - and then it will be reasonably obvious which characters are moving the plot.
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Old 2012-06-29, 09:40   Link #951
mironicus
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These should be the chapter names of Vol. 8

回想/祈りと叫び
前座
リア王と逼化
光に背を向けて
聴病な自尊心と尊大な羞恥心
友達つ<りゲ1ム
月の剣
妖星乱舞
新たなる光
強き心に花よ嘆け
プ口ロ1グの終わり/羽瀬川小躊が主人公になるとき

Last edited by mironicus; 2012-06-29 at 15:07.
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Old 2012-06-29, 21:59   Link #952
frivolity
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Originally Posted by theory28 View Post

I also agree with focus being controlled by author intentionally, what your saying doesn't disprove what I said and I am not disproving what you are saying - the amount of focus the author can give to keep a story thematically and theatrically tight is limited (hence artificial methods like focusing on a character per volume of LNs as you say).

My original point wasn't that Yozora isn't getting what she deserves in terms of focus (because I also think that she won't get her own focused volumes until closer to the end - her & Kodaka's resolution will effectively end the story - someone earlier made reference to an analysis of Ichigo 100% as an example)

- my point was that the current focusing so far has referenced at the flaws in other characters and shown them briefly at times but you dont get to see the full scale of their flaws because they are occurring in places unseen. Anyways the original question was why does Yozora get pulled up for stuff and my answer was everyone was meant to be equally bad but some people's isn't on camera as much as Yozora's is so perception of her ends up being worse.

As Johnny above notes the Sena-centric crowd seem particularly likely to latch on to that -

I dont think you and I are actually disagreeing though.
Lol, I was the one who quoted the Ichigo 100% analysis

As an aside, given what you've said, which do you think is Sena's real self? The mighty one that she normally behaves with everyone else, or the one that she only shows Kodaka and the rest of the Neighbours Club?
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Old 2012-06-29, 22:58   Link #953
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As an aside, given what you've said, which do you think is Sena's real self? The mighty one that she normally behaves with everyone else, or the one that she only shows Kodaka and the rest of the Neighbours Club?
Both, Sena might have defects, but being a two-faced hypocrital bitch ain't one of those (that is one of the reasons why she can't get female "friends").
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Old 2012-06-30, 05:37   Link #954
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I agree that the characters' flaws are not equally being shown
Only Yozora's flaws are moving the story and will end it.

The character flaws of all the others are merely just entertaining and are not important for the story. Sena, Yukimura, Rika, Maria, Kobato and Kodaka are harmless. They don't have such serious problems they can't come over with if they are in a group.
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Old 2012-06-30, 06:02   Link #955
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Only Yozora's flaws are moving the story and will end it.

The character flaws of all the others are merely just entertaining and are not important for the story. Sena, Yukimura, Rika, Maria, Kobato and Kodaka are harmless. They don't have such serious problems they can't come over with if they are in a group.
I see and I agree.
To honest I read everything that was posted on this page and I found myself agreeing with everybody on many points.

The thing I want to know is what does Yozora wants I just do get her sometimes.
I get the feeling there more to her then just the fact that Kodoka left with out saying goodbye or the thing with the cat they found and befriended.

Do you guys think that her problems come from family issues. Like her parents?
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Old 2012-06-30, 07:06   Link #956
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Lol, I was the one who quoted the Ichigo 100% analysis

As an aside, given what you've said, which do you think is Sena's real self? The mighty one that she normally behaves with everyone else, or the one that she only shows Kodaka and the rest of the Neighbours Club?
lol - chalk that up to me not going back to look, sorry - but thanks for reposting that. Its been a while since I'd thought about I-100% and now i'm older and look back on it in a commercial context - the path certain characters take and how they end up makes more sense.

I dont think anything about Sena or the other characters is fake. I believe good writing will show personalities that are complex and layered - so I think all their actions are valid parts of expressing who they are and how they deal with the world around them. For the Neighbours Club group this will be expressed as a combination of the initial circumstances (that separated them from normal people), their struggles and failures to reintegrate, and whatever coping mechanisms they have ended up with to compensate.

Would be interesting to explore that for each character but meh, another time.

BTW, when I mentioned moe fake "flaws" earlier I didn't mean they were false on her part I meant that they weren't flaws that target demographic audience would perceive in a negative way

(e.g. how many people who stay up late to watch anime, buy expensive blu-rays / merchandise and are cross invested in mix media projects like Haganai would actually view playing galge/eroge and obsessing over lolis in a negative light - I'm willing to bet thats a Venn diagram with a small overlap if Sena's fandom is any indication...)
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Old 2012-06-30, 08:44   Link #957
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The thing I want to know is what does Yozora wants I just do get her sometimes.
Yozora just wants to be alone with him and no other should be around and disturb them.

In their childhood they were both outcasts and had no friends so they share the same fate and they only had each other. Yozora has some romantic and nostalgic memories about that because it was the only time in her life she had a very good friend. And of course - Yozora is a girl and Kodakas declaration to care for her more than 100 friends can be also understood as a confession of love if it is directed to a girl. So Kodaka was her first love/romance after all. She was to shy to reveal to him that she is a girl.

The moments with Kodaka were the only good impression of friendship she ever achieved, so she clings to them.

After seeing that the present Kodaka is still an outcast she had hopes that they can recover their old friendship to the old state. And of course mainly alone together like 10 years ago. She fooled him into joining the club so they have a quiet place for themselves. The recruiting poster Yozora made was encrypted so her original plan was that no one else should join the club. After Sena joined, Yozora had to move on with her deception and now the real club activities started.

Yozora is confused why her plans don't work out because she still thinks that nothing has changed between them and they are just alike (both are outcasts and always alone and have no friends). But of course that is not true.

Kodaka don't want to be an outcast any more and he really want friends - and of course not only one. He enjoys to be in a group.
Yozora don't mind staying an outcast (she is used to be alone) as long she has Kodaka at her side. She has trouble coping with a group. She don't want other friends.

The old state was: Both were outcasts and had no friends. So Yozora also want that Kodaka himself should not have another friend besides her.

So she tries to shoo away the other girls (especially Sena). She tolerates Kobato because she is no threat for her.

Yozora has to come over her past because Kodaka won't accept her way of living out a friendship/relationship.
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Old 2012-06-30, 10:03   Link #958
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lol - chalk that up to me not going back to look, sorry - but thanks for reposting that. Its been a while since I'd thought about I-100% and now i'm older and look back on it in a commercial context - the path certain characters take and how they end up makes more sense.
This is something I'm quite interested in actually. I noticed that with manga and light novels, there seems to be a little bit of tendency to drag the story out in order to milk as much as possible from the series. The afore-mentioned Ichigo 100% is the best example, where the author tinkered with her original storyline just to extend the series, only to find that the story had gone in a direction beyond her control. I notice some of this going on with Hayate no Gotoku, although that's not a very good example because the premise of that series is already quite random to begin with. Contrast this with ToraDora!, a series that was popular but was wrapped up very cleanly and deftly with the pairing that everyone knew would eventually happen.

At this point, I'm keeping a close eye on A Town Where You Rage, because it's also a series that's being dragged out quite painfully.

Quote:
I dont think anything about Sena or the other characters is fake. I believe good writing will show personalities that are complex and layered - so I think all their actions are valid parts of expressing who they are and how they deal with the world around them. For the Neighbours Club group this will be expressed as a combination of the initial circumstances (that separated them from normal people), their struggles and failures to reintegrate, and whatever coping mechanisms they have ended up with to compensate.

Would be interesting to explore that for each character but meh, another time.

— BTW, when I mentioned moe fake "flaws" earlier I didn't mean they were false on her part — I meant that they weren't flaws that target demographic audience would perceive in a negative way

(e.g. how many people who stay up late to watch anime, buy expensive blu-rays / merchandise and are cross invested in mix media projects like Haganai would actually view playing galge/eroge and obsessing over lolis in a negative light - I'm willing to bet thats a Venn diagram with a small overlap if Sena's fandom is any indication...)
I've thought about this before, and my conclusion is that there's simply no explanation for this lol. Kirino, for example, is also a tsundere otaku obsessed with eroge, but she's not as popular as Kuroneko, whose main trope is the neko. Same goes for Sanzenin Nagi, who flatly loses to Hinagiku, whose defining characteristic is being good at everything. I don't really see any overarching similarity that explains these discrepancies well.

Overall though, one thing that's very unfortunate for me whenever commercial issues come into play is that the girls I support almost always seem to lose in these situations Still hoping things turn out well for Sena, Ruri, and Nagi.
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Old 2012-06-30, 20:21   Link #959
Miraluka
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Overall though, one thing that's very unfortunate for me whenever commercial issues come into play is that the girls I support almost always seem to lose in these situations Still hoping things turn out well for Sena, Ruri, and Nagi.

If you mean commercial issues, actually there is large diifference between Sena(top-tier) and the other girls, seriously, finding Yozora(above average), Maria, Yukimura or Rika fanarts is some kind of challenge.
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Old 2012-06-30, 20:38   Link #960
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As much of a Yozara fangirl I am (and by fangirl, I think those who know me would understand what I mean), half of the time Yozora's behavior is incomprehensible to me from the information we currently have. I think we might be seeing some major hidden issues from the time between Taka moving away and the reunion being revealed in the future. Those issues will probably be major, which makes me uneasy to say the least.
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