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Old 2012-06-30, 03:08   Link #1041
bones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Not If he's not trying to kill her:

Spoiler for size:


And death normally happens in Teigu fights because they're very overpowered, the fighters have a diffcult time holding back.
And for what reason would he not try to kill her? Because she's in love with him?
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Old 2012-06-30, 03:10   Link #1042
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by bones View Post
This is Esdese we're talking about right, even when she falls in love with him, it's more like she's trying to make him over rather than change herself to match him so falling in love didn't do much did it?
I like how you ignore the fact that Tatsumi and Wave fought each other with their Teigu on and neither one of them died.

And despite her claims to make him over, she never followed through on it. Even if she disagrees with him on values, she never thought any less of him.
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Old 2012-06-30, 03:22   Link #1043
bones
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
She has BOTH philosophies, not just one like you're saying.



The reason for her to believe in Tatsumi's kindness and compassion is all the time she's spent with him so far.

And a lot of people take the whole '2 come in, only 1 leaves' rule as some immutable law of the universe or something. Wave and Tatsumi fought, they both survived -_- It just means that with the power level involved with teigus, it's just much more likely one of the parties will die in a serious fight, but then again considering in serious fights, usually 1 party dies ANYWAY....
Not sure where you're getting the both philosophies from? Are you referring to the part where she tortures the people she defeated? I think that has more to do with her twisted sense of pleasure rather than her beliefs. All the time she spent with him? How long is that exactly and was there any indication that she had changed?

The author has established the one survives rule as a foundation for his story and making exceptions for it again and again would make for a sucky story Wave and Tatsumi didn't fight only Wave did, Tatsumi was focusing more on getting away and luckily for him his teigu had the ability of invisibility . So we have one exception to the rule which is acceptable so long as the author doesn't make a habit of ignoring his own rules
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Old 2012-06-30, 03:25   Link #1044
bones
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I like how you ignore the fact that Tatsumi and Wave fought each other with their Teigu on and neither one of them died.

And despite her claims to make him over, she never followed through on it. Even if she disagrees with him on values, she never thought any less of him.
And I like how you ignore the fact that Tatsumi wasn't fighting him rather he was more focused on escaping. Of course she never followed through on it, he escaped before she could.
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Old 2012-06-30, 03:30   Link #1045
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bones View Post
The author has established the one survives rule as a foundation for his story and making exceptions for it again and again would make for a sucky story Wave and Tatsumi didn't fight only Wave did, Tatsumi was focusing more on getting away and luckily for him his teigu had the ability of invisibility . So we have one exception to the rule which is acceptable so long as the author doesn't make a habit of ignoring his own rules
The "only one will survive" thing is a circular argument. When people are trying to kill each other, of course someone will die, Teigu user or not.

If you are excusing that fight because Tatsumi didn't have the intent to kill, then Esdeses' life still depends on whether Tatsumi wants to kill her or not. "Only one survives in a battle to the death" is not some unbreakable curse caused by the Teigu.

If Wave and Tatsumi are both allowed to live because one of them did not want to kill, then Esdeses still has the possibility of surviving if Tatsumi does not want to kill her. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by bones View Post
Of course she never followed through on it, he escaped before she could.
She had more than one chance. Like...

Spoiler:


Then there's the fact that she did not order a search for Tatsumi and left it up to "fate". Had she wanted to mold him, she would have forced him back.
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Old 2012-06-30, 05:05   Link #1046
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by bones View Post
Not sure where you're getting the both philosophies from? Are you referring to the part where she tortures the people she defeated? I think that has more to do with her twisted sense of pleasure rather than her beliefs. All the time she spent with him? How long is that exactly and was there any indication that she had changed?

The author has established the one survives rule as a foundation for his story and making exceptions for it again and again would make for a sucky story Wave and Tatsumi didn't fight only Wave did, Tatsumi was focusing more on getting away and luckily for him his teigu had the ability of invisibility . So we have one exception to the rule which is acceptable so long as the author doesn't make a habit of ignoring his own rules
You're also ignoring the fact she says she has little to no mercy. Its not like she can't have both philosophies because they don't directly contradict each other. Why do you believe so strongly its one or the other?

And no,one survives rule is not the foundation of this story. Its a general rule but not absolute like you seem to believe. And frankly, judging from the raws, I don't know why people are arguing about tatsumi sparing esdes or akame .If anything, it should be the other way round cause esdes is so insanely strong that I'm pretty sure she'd curb stomp the two of them.

Calling it now, esdes fights tatsumi but can't bear to kill him when she wins
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Old 2012-06-30, 07:30   Link #1047
kazzuya13
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How everyone thinks that when 2 teigus meet 1 will die... While it specifically stated that when the clash With the intent to kill 1 will oalways become a victim meaning if one out of 2 doesn't have any intent to kill even if they clash id doesn't mean 1 of them will die you know
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Old 2012-06-30, 08:11   Link #1048
NeutralZero
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IF we go with Tatsumi's example: teigu vs teigu = death unless you manage to escape...
as long as the both parties are willing to battle, one of them is gonna die...
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Old 2012-06-30, 08:39   Link #1049
Soji
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Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx View Post
Out of anything in this Manga, it clearly points out that Tatsumi will not change sides. He progressing his power very quickly and is adapting to use his Teigu more effectively now, thanks to some experience comrades. Though like Soji said, he isn't near enough to beat Esdes in one on one combat. Though if physiologically comes into play, Tatsumi will at least give Esdes somewhat a challenge from a scale of 4 out of 10.
Yeah.The author was clear on this point,at time I wonder why there is people that even think that is possilbe that Tatsumi change side or betray NR(and yeah i read post like this on other forum).
Knowing her she would probally happy to see how much strong Tatsumi become.(even if he give her only some challenge).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Well, I'm just pointing out one possible way for her to change that would be within the realm of reason. There could be any number of events down line in the story that might effect Esdese's development. Tatsumi and her may not even need to fight necessarily for her change to happen.
Talking about possible scenary.Make you wonder how she would react if Tatsumi shield/protect some one that she or someone else try to kill.Especially if she think that that some one is weaker than Tatsumi.I really wonder her reaction if something like this really happen.
Spoiler for ch 27:


Quote:
Originally Posted by NeutralZero View Post
The only way to defeat an opponent without killing them is to be stronger... with a large margin at that...
If it'll be a group fight then it would be more impossible for that to happen...
Aside from Tatsumi who came to know her and bond with her to some degree... no single member of Night raid would spare her or would go for the kill in battle against her...
mostly Akame...
If only Tatsumi could pull of the same stunt Zen did in Medaka...
Well that or a team work between 2 people at least. But for this to work the 2 must be similar to Esdes lv.Have absolute trust in each other and perfect coordination.Also I think even Akame would spare her if Esdes give her a reason to do so.After all Esdes is pretty protective toward Tatsumi in her own way.Before they go teleport and scary face appear(other the monster). Esdes quicly put Tatsumi close to her and she point her sword toward the enemy(this one was a defensive stance she can both attack and protect Tatsumi that way).Also when they where on the Island again the big monster she was worry when tatsumi try to attack like Akame do again the doctor.So yeah if something like this happen again I can see Akame spare Esdes at least once.(although the way Akame is now she can kill /hurt Esdes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xacual View Post
Budou is the Grand General or whatever in charge of the Capital judging by what was said about him in some of the conversations between Prime Minister and Esdese. Esdese also told Tatsumi not to try to escape because Budou's men are well trained.
Yeah i remember this.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Yeah, his rank sounds like he's the equivalent to a Marshal/Field Marshal, basically the head of the army. PM seems to want keep him out affairs of state and go behind his back/bending the orders he gives like in this chapter.
Make me want to know more about him to tell you the true.I mean for the Pm to not want that Budou know about all this. there as to be a reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
The reason for her to believe in Tatsumi's kindness and compassion is all the time she's spent with him so far.
They not really past soo much time togheter. I mean was more or less days .But I get you're point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I like how you ignore the fact that Tatsumi and Wave fought each other with their Teigu on and neither one of them died.

And despite her claims to make him over, she never followed through on it. Even if she disagrees with him on values, she never thought any less of him.
She said to him that he would change at the start. But after that she never try anymore. I think that both her and Tatsumi
Spoiler for spoiler:
know that they cant make the other change(i mean in what they belive) and change side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
The "only one will survive" thing is a circular argument. When people are trying to kill each other, of course someone will die, Teigu user or not.
This is true.
Quote:
If you are excusing that fight because Tatsumi didn't have the intent to kill, then Esdeses' life still depends on whether Tatsumi wants to kill her or not. "Only one survives in a battle to the death" is not some unbreakable curse caused by the Teigu
This is true as well. BUt depends if Esdes try to kill some one of the NR or not. We know how Tatsumi react when something like this happen.
Although I have to agree with you in this one.
Quote:
If Wave and Tatsumi are both allowed to live because one of them did not want to kill, then Esdeses still has the possibility of surviving if Tatsumi does not want to kill her. Simple as that.
Yeah but from what we know a 3 party kill her after that. I mean in one of this ch we see that Ran have his own plan.
.

Quote:


She had more than one chance. Like...

Spoiler:


Then there's the fact that she did not order a search for Tatsumi and left it up to "fate". Had she wanted to mold him, she would have forced him back.
What is fair is fair. I have to agree with this. She had a good chance there but she don't take that chance (from what we know). And she never go to search tatsumi and let fate to give her the chance to meet him again.
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Old 2012-06-30, 08:59   Link #1050
NeutralZero
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Akame sparing her is low... even if she want to. After all a single scratch from the sword=death...
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Old 2012-06-30, 09:12   Link #1051
kazzuya13
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They can spar with a wooden sword you know
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Old 2012-06-30, 09:13   Link #1052
NeutralZero
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fighting Esdes with a wooded sword is suicidal...
Used wrong word at that sorry
we mean is she to spare her life...
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Old 2012-06-30, 10:12   Link #1053
evil|plushie
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Akame's sword can insta-kill someone if it cuts them. The key word is cut them. Esdes is an ice-user, and a very very powerful one at that. We've seen from other manga what ice users can do to protect themselves. In terms of power, Esdes is ahead but Akame has that super cheap sword of hers but ultimately it comes down to this. Can Akame actually get close enough to Esdes to cut her? At the moment, I think 'No'
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Old 2012-06-30, 10:18   Link #1054
Soji
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Originally Posted by NeutralZero View Post
fighting Esdes with a wooded sword is suicidal...
Used wrong word at that sorry
we mean is she to spare her life...
I was thinking more on the line that this happen before the fight. Or that they have something else to deal with(like the one that attack him in the first place).But was only to said that there is event/scenary where she may not attack her. But like evil|plushie said Akame can't cut Esdes for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Akame's sword can insta-kill someone if it cuts them. The key word is cut them. Esdes is an ice-user, and a very very powerful one at that. We've seen from other manga what ice users can do to protect themselves. In terms of power, Esdes is ahead but Akame has that super cheap sword of hers but ultimately it comes down to this. Can Akame actually get close enough to Esdes to cut her? At the moment, I think 'No'
No she can't. Esdes is way more strong than her. While I like how she say the line in ch 19. There is no way that Akame can cut Esdes the way she is now.The only way for something like this to happen would be if Esdes let her guard down(and we already see that she never let her guard down...maybe only with Tatsumi).And with team work. but even there I doub it that Akame can cut Esdes.
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Old 2012-06-30, 10:26   Link #1055
NeutralZero
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We could go with that or have her fight them exhausted, not at her full strength.... other wise it would really be imposible to defeat her...
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Old 2012-06-30, 11:50   Link #1056
Soji
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NeutralZero @ Well she's more or less invincible the only weakness that she had it's Tatsumi or better her love toward him(and I hate call this weakness).
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Old 2012-06-30, 12:19   Link #1057
evil|plushie
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If mentar is right and it's the scenario writer for majikoi/kimiaru/tsuyokiss, there's pretty much no way tatsumi can beat her in a straight fight. The guy likes his females wtfstrong.
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Old 2012-06-30, 12:32   Link #1058
Soji
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
If mentar is right and it's the scenario writer for majikoi/kimiaru/tsuyokiss, there's pretty much no way tatsumi can beat her in a straight fight. The guy likes his females wtfstrong.
The problem is that you can't use that kind of scenario or better what you see from that games to try to understand where the author want to go with Akame ga kill. The story are way too different from what i remember.Also in all the game the most improtant route was always /or almost always the one of the Main heroine (and the close to be canon). I think the only game that change this is majikoi that have a true ending.
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Old 2012-06-30, 12:35   Link #1059
evil|plushie
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I'm not basing on scenario of whether esdess will end up with tatsumi but based on the guys writing for those 3 games. A lot his females are pretty damn wtf strong. From this, I'm guessing the guy likes to write about strong females, especially strong females who pretty much outclass their male counterparts.
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Old 2012-06-30, 13:02   Link #1060
Mentar
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Wow, this is really amazing. I mean, I've been on this boards for ages, and speculating where stories go is one of my favorite pastimes. This story is good material, since it's original and unfinished (so everyone knows the same). Knowing the author very well, I was willing to call the upcoming developments right after Gestapo-chan gave the attribute list of the guy she wanted to fall in love with. And yet, even though there are clear indications of where this story is headed, and even on a purely logical basis, the situation seems quite clear to me, I seem to remain almost isolated. Can't remember when I had this happen to me the last time

So let's collect the clues.

1) Takahiro is a happy ending guy. Tatsumi as the clear male lead will eventually fulfill his dream - a fair country with everyone happy. That's his prime goal.

2) The story pits characters against each other which shouldn't be fighting in the first place. Take Wave. Take Bors. Heck, take even Seryuu (the girl who killed Schere), even she isn't "evil" - from their perspectives, they are FIGHTING murderers. Takahiro is making perfectly clear that NO SIDE is clearly "in the right" here, as much as subjectively justified they might feel. This is why he's painting Esdese's subordinates in a positive light. And this is why in my most humble opinion, it's silly to assume that the story will end by having Tatsumi or the Night Raid defeat Esdese and her team. It won't happen like this. This wouldn't be a proper conclusion to the story goal at all.

3) The only character who is depicted as consistently evil is the Interior minister. However, I don't see the story simply ending by killing him. Rather, someone with authority needs to step up and clean house. And we have a clear candidate for that - who is far away from doing this now, yes - but who clearly has the potential to change her mind and who as the acting General has the authority to actually make a difference, facilitate the change that Tatsumi dreams of and thus removes the need for conflict between Night Raid and the government. That's Esdese.

4) Whether or not she'll go the full Darth Vader (and dies in her victorious effort) or not remains to be seen. Personally, I don't think so. There's tons of drama and friction between her and Tatsumi, so this is going to take quite a bit longer. And this is exactly the kind of setting which Takahiro loves: Strong woman in a battle for control with the male lead, until the male lead manages to cause a change of heart in the female character. So, in the very least, he will successfully thaw the Ice Queen till she leads the coup that fulfills Tatsumi's dream. And if she dies in the bed or has Tatsumi ravage her in it is up for grabs. Takahiro tends to go for the latter version

Anyway, we'll have to wait and see. I say that she and Tatsumi will never fight to the death, and neither will one other Night Raider kill her.
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