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Old 2012-06-17, 23:42   Link #521
whatbob1
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Yeah it was also mentioned in F/Z, but in the anime they cut off some lines with the Kotomine and Zouken conversation. where Zouken said there was something wrong with this Heaven's Feel and how a spirit like bluebeard could have been summoned.

Spoiler for zouken lines:

Last edited by whatbob1; 2012-06-18 at 00:02.
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Old 2012-06-18, 09:39   Link #522
chaos_alfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
No. The three times are the three Command Seals. Remember, Saber also states when she mentions the three times "I don't think I need to say when those three times were."
From what I remember it wasn't the command seals.

Could someone confirm this?
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Old 2012-06-18, 09:45   Link #523
Aesthetic Shampoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
From what I remember it wasn't the command seals.

Could someone confirm this?
I'm pretty sure the only times he talked to her directly was when he was using the command seals. So 3 times, one for each spell.
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Old 2012-06-18, 15:16   Link #524
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by EssTEss View Post
I'm pretty sure the only times he talked to her directly was when he was using the command seals. So 3 times, one for each spell.
Nope, it seems Kiritsugu does only talk to Saber three times during the war.

Quote:
ANN: In the Fate/stay night visual novel, Saber mentions that she only talked to Emiya Kiritsugu three times during the 4th Holy Grail War. Was it difficult writing a story in which the two main characters can only talk to each other directly 3 times?

Gen Urobuchi: In order to abide by the original story, the character Irisviel has been introduced. Saber only talks to Irisviel. Kiritsugu only talks to Irisviel, too. So, in the end, Irisviel plays the role of facilitating communication between these two, who do not talk to each other.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/inte...r-gen-urobuchi
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Old 2012-06-23, 22:00   Link #525
Grey
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Rin was left in that situation and became the Rin we saw in F/SN? Holy smokes. Never would have guessed Aoi would completely lose it. Feels like I'm missing a little bit of story there. But it's not the LN I'm reading so no surprise there.

Kirei's progression was pretty cool. His search for an answer parallels UBW Saber in a way. I got a good impression of his path from the finale.

Lancelot's words about his King remind me of Archer's answer in UBW. It was a nice echo.
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Old 2012-06-26, 15:40   Link #526
mAc Chaos
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I'm pretty sure that Kotomine mentions in FSN that he is basically contracted to the Grail like a Master, so it's more like he became it's Master since he accepted it.
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Old 2012-06-27, 10:34   Link #527
Touko
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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
I'm pretty sure that Kotomine mentions in FSN that he is basically contracted to the Grail like a Master, so it's more like he became it's Master since he accepted it.
Incorrect.

Spoiler:
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Old 2012-06-30, 12:08   Link #528
ChainLegacy
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I'm playing Heaven's Feel for the first time after finishing Fate/Zero. I recall much discussion about how much responsibility Tokiomi holds for Sakura's fate... I'm surprised no one mentioned in spoiler tags or anything about the scene I just played through...? Zouken plainly states he and Tokiomi were using Sakura as an experiment for both their sake's. Is he lying or am I asking questions that will be answered soon?
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Old 2012-06-30, 20:15   Link #529
mAc Chaos
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Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Incorrect.

Spoiler:
There was definitely a scene somewhere where he mentions being related to it via contract like a Master, but I'll dig it up later.
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Old 2012-06-30, 22:45   Link #530
d-one
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I'm playing Heaven's Feel for the first time after finishing Fate/Zero. I recall much discussion about how much responsibility Tokiomi holds for Sakura's fate... I'm surprised no one mentioned in spoiler tags or anything about the scene I just played through...? Zouken plainly states he and Tokiomi were using Sakura as an experiment for both their sake's. Is he lying or am I asking questions that will be answered soon?
The magus itself is not a saint since what they believe is they must find a way to reach the root. In Tokiomi, or many magus, mindset, it is the correct choice to give Sakura but for normal people it's horrible
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Old 2012-07-01, 12:30   Link #531
Touko
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Originally Posted by d-one View Post
The magus itself is not a saint since what they believe is they must find a way to reach the root. In Tokiomi, or many magus, mindset, it is the correct choice to give Sakura but for normal people it's horrible
Yup.

Personal happiness and comfort are a small price to pay in the grand pursuit for the Root and True Knowledge.
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Old 2012-07-02, 00:50   Link #532
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Yup.

Personal happiness and comfort are a small price to pay in the grand pursuit for the Root and True Knowledge.
True, I understood that bit, but from what Zouken said, it would seem Tokiomi was aware of his decision to 'experiment' with Sakura and turn her into a grail for them. Prior, I was under the impression (and it seemed many Fate/Zero viewers in the thread were as well), that while he knew her life wouldn't be easy, he didn't understand she would be made into a sacrifice/tortured... but based on what Zouken said this doesn't seem to be possible.
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Old 2012-07-02, 05:45   Link #533
Haak
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When does he actually say this? What scene are you talking about?
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Old 2012-07-02, 08:10   Link #534
d-one
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
True, I understood that bit, but from what Zouken said, it would seem Tokiomi was aware of his decision to 'experiment' with Sakura and turn her into a grail for them. Prior, I was under the impression (and it seemed many Fate/Zero viewers in the thread were as well), that while he knew her life wouldn't be easy, he didn't understand she would be made into a sacrifice/tortured... but based on what Zouken said this doesn't seem to be possible.
In my view, Tokiomi is aware that Zouken is a dangerous guy but he don't want to let Sakura's talent go to waste (since the family magic crest will be passed only to one successor) so he give Sakura to him. He probably knew that her life will be harsh but he believe she will be happy because she will be a proper magus and will continue Tohsaka's family dream to reach the root. Of course, only Zouken knew about turning Sakura's body into a grail because he put the remnant of the grail into Sakura AFTER Saber destroy it which means Tokiomi already dead at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak
When does he actually say this? What scene are you talking about?
it's when Zouken invite Shirou to talk about killing Sakura
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Old 2012-07-02, 10:07   Link #535
Touko
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He knew Zouken is dangerous, but he did not know Zouken had become that crazy.

The Matous were noble once, dangerous and powerful, but noble nonetheless.
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Old 2012-07-03, 07:52   Link #536
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
When does he actually say this? What scene are you talking about?
It is the scene where Zouken asks Shirou to deal with the 'black shadow' towards the end of the route. Zouken talks with Shirou in the Matou household. He details the backstory and mentions that he and Tokiomi were using Sakura in hopes of gaining immortality. I suppose he could've made it up but it seems to have been a throwaway comment with nothing for him to gain from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d-one View Post
In my view, Tokiomi is aware that Zouken is a dangerous guy but he don't want to let Sakura's talent go to waste (since the family magic crest will be passed only to one successor) so he give Sakura to him. He probably knew that her life will be harsh but he believe she will be happy because she will be a proper magus and will continue Tohsaka's family dream to reach the root. Of course, only Zouken knew about turning Sakura's body into a grail because he put the remnant of the grail into Sakura AFTER Saber destroy it which means Tokiomi already dead at that time.
So you think he was lying? Because he made it seem like Tokiomi would be aware that Sakura would be sacrificed as an 'experiment' for their benefit. I suppose it's too ambiguous to know for sure.
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Old 2012-07-03, 08:28   Link #537
Touko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
It is the scene where Zouken asks Shirou to deal with the 'black shadow' towards the end of the route. Zouken talks with Shirou in the Matou household. He details the backstory and mentions that he and Tokiomi were using Sakura in hopes of gaining immortality. I suppose he could've made it up but it seems to have been a throwaway comment with nothing for him to gain from.
That's what Zouken said, but he was obviously lying. We know Tokiomi's goal is to reach the Root (rather than achieving immortality), from several source. He was just trolling Shirou.

This is the part you meant, right?
Spoiler:


And also, Zouken was lying in saying that the Ritual was dedicated for achieving immortality, while he knew its ultimate purpose was for reaching the Root.
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Old 2012-07-03, 08:49   Link #538
chaos_alfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Touko View Post
That's what Zouken said, but he was obviously lying. We know Tokiomi's goal is to reach the Root (rather than achieving immortality), from several source. He was just trolling Shirou.

This is the part you meant, right?
Spoiler:


And also, Zouken was lying in saying that the Ritual was dedicated for achieving immortality, while he knew its ultimate purpose was for reaching the Root.
To add to this.

Zouken probably isn't even aware that what he is saying is wrong because
Spoiler for Heavens Feel:
(at least if I remember correctly, it has been some time since I played Heavens Feel)
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Old 2012-07-03, 10:45   Link #539
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Touko View Post
That's what Zouken said, but he was obviously lying. We know Tokiomi's goal is to reach the Root (rather than achieving immortality), from several source. He was just trolling Shirou.

This is the part you meant, right?
Spoiler:


And also, Zouken was lying in saying that the Ritual was dedicated for achieving immortality, while he knew its ultimate purpose was for reaching the Root.
I see. While I am not the most astute VN player, I find some of this information rather hard to surmise based on the in-game text. For instance, this 'root' was never properly described, in my view. Am I just bad at gleaning information, or are some of these concepts fleshed out more in related works (like Tsukihime, perhaps? I never completed the game)?
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Old 2012-07-03, 10:59   Link #540
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I see. While I am not the most astute VN player, I find some of this information rather hard to surmise based on the in-game text. For instance, this 'root' was never properly described, in my view. Am I just bad at gleaning information, or are some of these concepts fleshed out more in related works (like Tsukihime, perhaps? I never completed the game)?
The Root gets more fleshed out in Kara no Kyoukai.

Ufotable has adapted the novel in to seven movies.


I do recommend finishing Tsukihime, just because it's a Type-Moon work and The Far Side of the Moon routes (Akiha, Hisui, Kohaku) are more enjoyably than The Near Side of The Moon routes (Arcueid and Ciel), but that's just my opinion.
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