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Old 2012-07-01, 03:34   Link #3081
Destined_Fate
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Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Mikoto was a kid when they took her DNA. Also what did you expect her to do? They lied to her and made a clone army composed of her that they were killing daily for a project. Mitoko did the only thing she could do since the authorities were turning a blind eye to the Project and were letting mass murder occur within their own city. If anyone is bias it's you trying to twist Mikoto into a villian when she was completely in the right in trying to end the project and give her Sister's something to live for other than dying at the hands of Accelerator.

Knowing the Sin doesn't excuse the fact that he willingly participated in the project and killed all those sisters. He still pays for his participatin even after all the time that has passed and will continue to feel regret and suffer for it until he dies. His sin isn't something that you can just brush off because he feels bad about what he willingly engaged in or that he decides to try and dedicate himself to helping the sisters like Mikoto had been doing ever since she learned the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phibrizzo View Post
Accelerator talk to them but it's a reflective subconscious act, you are trying to change the way things happen.
Yet Accelerator later regrets what happened and that he had the power to stop it all but chose not to.
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Old 2012-07-01, 03:47   Link #3082
leukrota
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Originally Posted by Sakanaka Shouko View Post
She is not to blame. After all, she was just a kid.
It's not just that she was a kid, she donated her DNA to cure other kids, there was never any malice in her. Even adults give their blood as donation for transfusions... if their blood was used for ill purposes it would not be their fault, just as how they should not have to bear the guilt of crimes committed by people saved with their blood... It's just ridiculous.

Accelerator on the other hand, even if manipulated, continued to kill the clones even after growing up, all while lying himself about their nature as human beings. His guilt is very different from the guilt Mikoto feels. To illustrate the difference let's take a classic example: A tired driver crashes against a couple in a car and the passenger dies. The tired driver will blame himself for killing someone while the other driver will blame himself for being unable to avoid the crash or not taking a different road. (And this comparison is taking it light on Accelerator)

Perhaps Accelerator never really meant to kill anyone originally, as he just wanted to be left in peace. But nonetheless he did kill thousands. Mikoto simply failed to prevent those deaths (not that she ever stood a chance to prevent them)

... Ok, that's enough for my rant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
If anyone is bias it's you trying to twist Mikoto into a villian when she was completely in the right in trying to end the project and give her Sister's something to live for other than dying at the hands of Accelerator.
This

... I don't get how would anyone say Mikoto is as responsible for the tragedies as Accelerator... perhaps I just fell for a troll comment.
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Old 2012-07-01, 03:50   Link #3083
Destined_Fate
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You forgot that when Mikoto learned the truth she immediately set out to try and find a way to put an end to project without dragging anyone else in with her since she felt she was responsible because she was tricked. Touma, even with his memory loss, getting in her way was something she didn't plan on and that she tried not to show anyone how this was affecting her(Such as her very friendly meeting with Touma, despite her usually being tsundere when he's concerned, and than her suddenly getting serious and dragging her clone elsewhere to try and keep Touma out of the loop so he wouldn't have to know the truth), since she was at the point where she wanted to die if it meant ending it all because all her effort at that point didn't come close to stopping the project or the killings.
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Old 2012-07-01, 04:13   Link #3084
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Yet Accelerator later regrets what happened and that he had the power to stop it all but chose not to.
Nope, Accelerator doesn't have the power to stop it at all and he full knew what it means to go against the dark side because he is from the dark side. Mikoto acting alone is foolish for not asking for help or even go suicidal to just make the project stop. True it elevates her on the guilt but the point is she is not guilty to begin with Your not getting my point. It looks to me the you watch the railgun anime so I'll use that one. The last arc is a day or two before Mikoto first saw her clone. Remember the last arc that should have teach Mikoto to trust her friends and don't act alone? and don't say to me that she is only trying to protect them because her friends use that against her too that and even in the level of danger is different (from the pov of Kuroko on volume 08) she shouldn't take the blame for something she is not even aware of which is foolish act. She also confronts Harumi from that level up arc but she didn't learn on the others fault at all. She even tried to correct them the irony of it.

And Accelerator is blamed for the mistakes of his past and he knew it but for the better who made him like that to begin with? the dark side of the academy city. Him being raised by Kihara Amata doesn't even help at all. I won't try to sugar coat his sins that he committed by killing thousands of clones that didn't even count the people who fall by his hands before that whole level 6 plan even started. That is his sin he was been made into that and even if he is smartest guy around. An innocent tainted by darkness or a white color been mix with a droplet of darkness will become gray. And for now Accelerator is GRAY. While Touma with memory wipe is color WHITE. He is not originally WHITE. HE is also GRAY because he saw the darkness when Index was being hunted and he even tried to ABANDON HER. Touma having memory lost would just be wiping his hands of from his sins and the people that get harm thanks to his bad luck which is the same for accelerator for people trying to mess with him when he was a kid and his power was just an automatic thing. Both heroes are GRAY for me. Though Touma with memory wipe is like Pontious Pilate or what ever his name is. Washing hands from his sin. And I won't blame Touma for his bad luck that leads to accidents. Nope, he doesn't remember it but Accerator remembers it all and still being repentance on it.

Now back to the point with Mikoto again. While the heroes of tamni verse are both in gray for me. I don't see Mikoto as gray at all. She is pure WHITE for me. Has sense of justice and even helps the others and also the whole level 6 shit plans event started with Mikoto trying to help the others.

My main point is Mikoto is innocent but she is making herself feel dirty which is foolish for me. Though I can't blame her for being tricked or feeling guilty her clones are being killed again and again. But I just can't see her justification on blaming herself that she is at fault here which she is not. Foolish if you ask me.

And nope Mikoto doesn't have a say on the matter with the DNA thing. Like I said the whole level 6 plan is a farce, a fake or an illusion been made by the Director. Even if she didn't agree before when she was a child. Their is no stopping the dark side for getting her DNA map.
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Old 2012-07-01, 04:34   Link #3085
FallenHero
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Originally Posted by GoddyofAus
I personally wouldn't suggest that as credible. Accelerator has never been one to answer to an authority figure when he's been able to avoid it. The only such time I've ever seen him be obedient is during his work with GROUP.

The authority figures in his case would be the scientists. They told him he needs to slaughter thousands of clones in order to achieve Level 6 and he complied. They told him that he was killing nothing but dolls and he blindly went with that reasoning despite showing he knew better. Every time he failed to get a "human reaction" from a clone, he used that to further delude himself into thinking that since they didn't act human that meant it was alright to kill them. This reinforced the notion that the scientists were right and it's fine to continue the project. Accelerator always held the power to stop the project since it hinged on his willingness to cooperate, but he only stopped when he finally admitted to himself that what he was doing was wrong.
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Old 2012-07-01, 04:37   Link #3086
Destined_Fate
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Yes he did have the power to stop it. They literally had no one else to fall back on if Accelerator simply chose not to participate anymore. He had plenty of chances to drop out of the Project but was so obsessed with the power a level 6 would bring him that he was willing to go through with it. His reasoning being that he may kill tens of thousands of Sisters doesn't change that if he reaches level 6 no one would dare fight him since it would be a death sentence to even think of such a crime against him.

There's a difference between trust and acting alone. Mikono trusted her friends greatly but the sister business was personal to her. How would her friends react if they learned that Mikono clones were made and being killed off daily? They wouldn't have acted as well as Mikono did where she scouted out the labs/factories and took them out quickly without causing too much commotion or leaving any evidence behind.

Think how much that revelation would have effected Kuroko who is obsessed with Mikoto. Kuroko would have completely lost it and be forever traumatized over seeing dead Sisters(Unable to get it out of her head since they look so much like Mikoto whom she loves even if Mikoto may never return those feelings) or learning of how many have been killed already. If anything she would have recklesss went out after Accelerator on her own and gotten killed. Not telling them was the only way to protect them, they just aren't ready for that stuff. Hell, Mikoto wasn't ready for it even though she had preparation from the level upper arc.

Touma may have been a clean slate after his memory loss but after all that has happened since than he isn't White either. No human is going to be white after all the things Touma has experienced since than.

It's all about guilt and betrayal as well as her being a teenager full of hormones. She was betrayed by people that she thought were going to use her abilities to help others than when she learns the truth she feels guilty. It isn't her fault that she was used but being used by anyone for a completely different purpose without your knowledge would make you angry/dirty as well as spur you into action. If anything Mikoto hates herself for having her innocence exploited in such a way.

Yet they didn't bother trying to. There was no reason they would have approached her if they could have easily gotten all the data they needed from her to start up the project. Her not agreeing would have set them back by years and fragmented the data that would have to be gathered over a period of time to make it not so obvious to those outside the project.

What I'm getting at is that Accelerator doesn't see Mikoto in that light and would easily place just as much blame on her over the Project even though such a blame is unwarranted and wrong.
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Old 2012-07-01, 04:41   Link #3087
GoddyofAus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Yes he did have the power to stop it. They literally had no one else to fall back on if Accelerator simply chose not to participate anymore. He had plenty of chances to drop out of the Project but was so obsessed with the power a level 6 would bring him that he was willing to go through with it. His reasoning being that he may kill tens of thousands of Sisters doesn't change that if he reaches level 6 no one would dare fight him since it would be a death sentence to even think of such a crime against him.

There's a difference between trust and acting alone. Mikono trusted her friends greatly but the sister business was personal to her. How would her friends react if they learned that Mikono clones were made and being killed off daily? They wouldn't have acted as well as Mikono did where she scouted out the labs/factories and took them out quickly without causing too much commotion or leaving any evidence behind.

Think how much that revelation would have effected Kuroko who is obsessed with Mikoto. Kuroko would have completely lost it and be forever traumatized over seeing dead Sisters(Unable to get it out of her head since they look so much like Mikoto whom she loves even if Mikoto may never return those feelings) or learning of how many have been killed already. If anything she would have recklesss went out after Accelerator on her own and gotten killed. Not telling them was the only way to protect them, they just aren't ready for that stuff. Hell, Mikoto wasn't ready for it even though she had preparation from the level upper arc.

Touma may have been a clean slate after his memory loss but after all that has happened since than he isn't White either. No human is going to be white after all the things Touma has experienced since than.

It's all about guilt and betrayal as well as her being a teenager full of hormones. She was betrayed by people that she thought were going to use her abilities to help others than when she learns the truth she feels guilty. It isn't her fault that she was used but being used by anyone for a completely different purpose without your knowledge would make you angry/dirty as well as spur you into action. If anything Mikoto hates herself for having her innocence exploited in such a way.

Yet they didn't bother trying to. There was no reason they would have approached her if they could have easily gotten all the data they needed from her to start up the project. Her not agreeing would have set them back by years and fragmented the data that would have to be gathered over a period of time to make it not so obvious to those outside the project.

What I'm getting at is that Accelerator doesn't see Mikoto in that light and would easily place just as much blame on her over the Project even though such a blame is unwarranted and wrong.
I wouldn't say that. They could've pursued Kakine if they liked. It may have involved more work, but the experiment could have continued with him if need be. We all know Kakine is as power hungry as Accelerator is.
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Old 2012-07-01, 04:45   Link #3088
Destined_Fate
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After all the time that had passed and money spent it would be hard to justify the project if Accelerator just up and left. It would be nearly impossible for them to justify starting all over with a new subject and all the data gathered from Accelerator would have been labeled useless if they switched to another subject. Not to mention all the money and time wasted on him and the clones. Accelerator participating was an important part of the project, had he left after the killings started they would be hard pressed to start up again and would have to redo all the calculations for another subject that wouldn't be able to bring what Accelerator could.

I do agree that Accelerator purposely tricked himself to believing the killings weren't wrong because of how the clones acted and how illogical it was that they all embraced their deaths without a second thought. Like dolls. Hence why he regrets what happened because he knew that he was only fooling himself and deep down knew it was wrong but didn't stop it.
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Old 2012-07-01, 04:55   Link #3089
tsunade666
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this is....... useless >_> the whole level 6 shit plan like I said again is a farce and well planned up cover. I will stop their. Their is no use on stopping it. Look the key word is planned
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Old 2012-07-01, 04:56   Link #3090
GoddyofAus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
After all the time that had passed and money spent it would be hard to justify the project if Accelerator just up and left. It would be nearly impossible for them to justify starting all over with a new subject and all the data gathered from Accelerator would have been labeled useless if they switched to another subject. Not to mention all the money and time wasted on him and the clones. Accelerator participating was an important part of the project, had he left after the killings started they would be hard pressed to start up again and would have to redo all the calculations for another subject that wouldn't be able to bring what Accelerator could.

I do agree that Accelerator purposely tricked himself to believing the killings weren't wrong because of how the clones acted and how illogical it was that they all embraced their deaths without a second thought. Like dolls. Hence why he regrets what happened because he knew that he was only fooling himself and deep down knew it was wrong but didn't stop it.
True but lets be frank here; it is a long bow to suggest that Kamijous moral speech was what convinced him. The fact of the matter is his love for Last Order is what changed his mind, and quite frankly (and this is coming from someone who likes Accelerator), that's a pretty selfish, inward looking way to come to terms with an evil act that you've been the perpetrator of.
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Old 2012-07-01, 04:58   Link #3091
desrtsku
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oh guys, please calm down ^^" ... it's getting too far, this thread is not really suited for these kinds of talks ^^" there's too much spoiler
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Old 2012-07-01, 05:03   Link #3092
tsunade666
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I'm still holding back on the dam that's been outright punctured full of holes and the water was gushing out. If I won't be even holding back at all in information I will outright say that Mikoto doesn't get much screen time at all or been invisible in the near future from the ending point of 2nd season of Index. Or maybe she just left behind in the between the lines segment though her clone is better than her.

Last Order > ______ > Imouto > Mikoto
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Old 2012-07-01, 05:09   Link #3093
Destined_Fate
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Well Accelerator has been shown to only care about his needs and those in his inner circle over anyone else.


Why am I not surprised you put the loli ahead of the others? -.-

As far as importance goes it's Mikoto > Last Order >>>>>>>> Imouto. As for popularity is concerned it's Mikoto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last Order > Imouto.
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Old 2012-07-01, 05:15   Link #3094
leukrota
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
I'm still holding back on the dam that's been outright punctured full of holes and the water was gushing out. If I won't be even holding back at all in information I will outright say that Mikoto doesn't get much screen time at all or been invisible in the near future from the ending point of 2nd season of Index. Or maybe she just left behind in the between the lines segment though her clone is better than her.

Last Order > ______ > Imouto > Mikoto
Wait, wait... Don't mix the subjects, that stuff you just said belongs in the other thread you're discussing.

... this doesn't really make sense in this thread (it's about the Railgun manga after all)
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Old 2012-07-01, 05:17   Link #3095
FallenHero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoddyofAus
True but lets be frank here; it is a long bow to suggest that Kamijous moral speech was what convinced him. The fact of the matter is his love for Last Order is what changed his mind, and quite frankly (and this is coming from someone who likes Accelerator), that's a pretty selfish, inward looking way to come to terms with an evil act that you've been the perpetrator of.
His interactions with Last Order is what solidified his need to repent for his actions. Touma's actions is what made Accelerator finally get over his denial that prevented him from truly seeing his misdeeds.
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Old 2012-07-01, 05:18   Link #3096
Destined_Fate
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Originally Posted by FallenHero View Post
His interactions with Last Order is what solidified his need to repent for his actions. Touma's actions is what made Accelerator finally get over his denial that prevented him from truly seeing his misdeeds.
That seems to be Touma's secret power. Punching people out or in Mikoto's case just fighting opens peoples eyes.
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Old 2012-07-01, 05:29   Link #3097
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If you had properly studied the teachings of the Almighty Touma you would know that all problems can be solved with the power of determination and repeated punches to the face.
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Old 2012-07-01, 05:51   Link #3098
Atrum023
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If that was the case then most shounen heroes could do the same. The main difference between them and Touma is that he could beat you up while making you question your own motives through his epic words.
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Old 2012-07-01, 05:58   Link #3099
Destined_Fate
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Originally Posted by Atrum023 View Post
If that was the case then most shounen heroes could do the same. The main difference between them and Touma is that he could beat you up while making you question your own motives through his epic words.
Didn't people complain that his speeches are too drawn out? He doesn't even stop as he's beating his opponents.
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Old 2012-07-01, 06:02   Link #3100
hyl
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Originally Posted by Atrum023 View Post
If that was the case then most shounen heroes could do the same. The main difference between them and Touma is that he could beat you up while making you question your own motives through his epic words.
Doesn't sounds much different from Naruto
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