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Old 2012-07-01, 09:57   Link #3321
BetoJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
True. That's a huge flaw. Okay, new theory: The reapers didn't rebel, but instead followed their programming, which meant the first intelligent lifeform to be harvested... were their creators.
That's even explicitly stated by the Catalyst, actually.
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Old 2012-07-01, 10:46   Link #3322
Keroko
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Doip. You're right. So much for me sounding smart.
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Old 2012-07-01, 13:30   Link #3323
Alchemist007
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Rogue AIs...wonder if they'll keep that theme for the next ME game.
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Old 2012-07-01, 13:41   Link #3324
npal
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
That's even explicitly stated by the Catalyst, actually.
Actually from what I recall, the blue kid says that the creators became the first Reapers. They didn't want to but there was no choice. I interpreted that as: "Creators came up with a plan, made the Reaper blueprints, then chose to become themselves Reapers because they probably trusted no other sentience, organic or otherwise to fulfill the plan. Given a better choice, they'd have avoided that."
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Old 2012-07-01, 15:02   Link #3325
FlareKnight
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I have to say of all the color endings do think destroy has the bigger downsides for the Reapers. After all getting destroyed and losing all the civilizations they had 'preserved' wouldn't be a great positive for them. But maybe that's why the God Child works so hard to convince you that option is the worst for everyone. On the positive it does push Shepard into committing genocide on the Geth and will set a precedent for the galaxy. On top of the Reapers says that synthetics don't deserve to exist and should be crushed at every opportunity. So could give the Reapers what they wanted in terms of organics dominating life and not being destroyed. In the worst case that it doesn't go like that they can just make Reapers again.

Regardless feels like refusal is our only real option. No surrendering, just making a stand even if it leads to a loss. My biggest regret as Shepard in that situation would be not being out there on a ship fighting to the bitter end. Would at least like in that situation to blow up Harbinger if I'm going to lose .
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Old 2012-07-01, 15:07   Link #3326
DonQuigleone
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My view is that the Reapers are not actually synthetic at all. They are as to Biological life as the Geth are to VIs. IE The Geth could be characterised as a mass of VIs coalesced together to form an artificial intelligence. The reapers are a mass of biological intelligences coalesced to form another intelligence.

A few flaws with this theory though:

1. When people are being turned into a Reaper, they're turned into a liquid. Wouldn't the reapers need to extract and preserve the Brain?

2. Reaper intelligence does not (seem to) behave as a consensus the way the Geth do. Another sentience seems to exist that overrides it.

Overall, I would not describe the Reapers as a machine first and foremost, but a hybrid. Likewise, it's notably that all Reaper troops consist of Organics consumed with cybernetic implants.

I think the closest analogue I can think of to the Geth are the homunculi of Fullmetal Alchemist. Each Homunculi contains the souls and consciousnesses of thousands of human beings, but the homunculi itself has an independed personality that overwhelms them. The homunculi can draw on the experiences of the people within it, without being ruled by them.

Anyway, I wouldn't think of Reapers in "synthetic" terms, they don't have "programming".
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Old 2012-07-01, 17:45   Link #3327
MeisterBabylon
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1. Well, we all know that when you take out people's consciousness, they turn into orange Tang.
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Old 2012-07-01, 17:49   Link #3328
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
That's even explicitly stated by the Catalyst, actually.
I tend to think of it like will smith's I, ROBOT.

In that the computer core, VIKI, was programmed with the 3 laws which prevented her from harming any humans.

However, she eventually evolved to a different understanding which led her to cause a revolution where the robots would take over. The reasoning for this is because as time went on she couldn't get humans to stop killing each other (murders, wars, etc.) so the only logical conclusion she came to was to take control.

For the catalyst, he couldn't figure out a solution to the problem so therefore he came up with the Reapers and took his creators into it regardless of their objections.

Oh wait...that would mean that Mass Effect took their ideas from I, Robot....so much for artistic integrity.

What I don't understand is why they went that route and not just destroy synthetics in that era. In Warhammer 40K, robots rebelled against humanity which led to humanity destroying robots and banning AI outright.
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Old 2012-07-01, 18:09   Link #3329
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I tend to think of it like will smith's I, ROBOT.

In that the computer core, VIKI, was programmed with the 3 laws which prevented her from harming any humans.

However, she eventually evolved to a different understanding which led her to cause a revolution where the robots would take over. The reasoning for this is because as time went on she couldn't get humans to stop killing each other (murders, wars, etc.) so the only logical conclusion she came to was to take control.

For the catalyst, he couldn't figure out a solution to the problem so therefore he came up with the Reapers and took his creators into it regardless of their objections.

Oh wait...that would mean that Mass Effect took their ideas from I, Robot....so much for artistic integrity.

What I don't understand is why they went that route and not just destroy synthetics in that era. In Warhammer 40K, robots rebelled against humanity which led to humanity destroying robots and banning AI outright.
That's how I interpreted...I thought maybe their creator created them to stop the killing all together, but maybe the AI took a more literal meaning to their programming and therefore they unwillingly became the first reapers...It can be interpreted different ways though...
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Old 2012-07-01, 18:14   Link #3330
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
What I don't understand is why they went that route and not just destroy synthetics in that era. In Warhammer 40K, robots rebelled against humanity which led to humanity destroying robots and banning AI outright.
The same reason any robots start killing humans for no reason other than they are evil; they are stupid.

There is no way the Reapers were thinking clearly when they decided to purge the galaxy like this. Quite simply, all cases of synthetic life going on genocidal rampages are not because it is somehow inevitable, but because they are just nuts.

I have yet to see a single logical justification to explain why "machines need to die because otherwise they will kill us all". And there is definitely no justification for machines to decide "Oh, I think I should just start a war killing all organic life and waste resources doing so, with no gain."

Retards are retards. The Reapers are retarded, and whoever programmed them even more so. There is no cure for artificial stupidity.
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Old 2012-07-01, 18:26   Link #3331
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post

What I don't understand is why they went that route and not just destroy synthetics in that era. In Warhammer 40K, robots rebelled against humanity which led to humanity destroying robots and banning AI outright.
The same thing happened in the Duneverse (a literal Bible was written with one of the core commandants being the ban of any "thinking machines" (which was in turn influenced by Samuel Butler's Erewhon))...and lo and behold the final "villain" was still a machine. And the final solution...Synthesis. . (This is actually a fairly common ending to many of these types of stories.)

You can't really blame Mass Effect for using tried and true story cliches and ideas (they've done it in the other games, and on paper there is nothing particularly wrong with the idea of the starchild, rather it is the execution that was at fault). The ending results were exasperated because the individual player felt that their "presence" was not felt in the conclusion (which is a death toll for a series built around the idea of player participation).
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Old 2012-07-01, 18:48   Link #3332
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The same reason any robots start killing humans for no reason other than they are evil; they are stupid.

There is no way the Reapers were thinking clearly when they decided to purge the galaxy like this. Quite simply, all cases of synthetic life going on genocidal rampages are not because it is somehow inevitable, but because they are just nuts.

I have yet to see a single logical justification to explain why "machines need to die because otherwise they will kill us all". And there is definitely no justification for machines to decide "Oh, I think I should just start a war killing all organic life and waste resources doing so, with no gain."

Retards are retards. The Reapers are retarded, and whoever programmed them even more so. There is no cure for artificial stupidity.
Like I said. Gardner's logic. The reapers are gardeners, cutting the weeds (synthetics) to prevent it from choking all the garden and trimming the plants while harvesting its fruits (organics) to sustain themselves and keep the plants healthy.

Yeah, it's fucked up logic from a human point of view, because we're the guys getting culled. I'm pretty sure cows would call us monsters too, if they could. It's the age old "do you worry about the ants beneath your feet?" question that higher beings tend to pose in stories.

And yes, synthetics do use different reasoning compared to humans on how and why to do things. There's a simple reason for that: They're not human. They don't follow the same line of thinking as we do. It's like how you don't expect a krogan to settle an argument over a nice cup of tea, except on an even bigger scale.

Sci fi tends to make everyone follow human standards, but completely different beings could (and should) have completely different ways of thinking. Whether we agree or like that way of thinking is a different story altogether, but that they have it should be all but guaranteed.
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Old 2012-07-01, 18:51   Link #3333
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Still, why would the Geth be considered a threat worth exterminating, when those like the Batarians and Vorcha are not?

The logic that "it doesn't matter when Organics kill each other, but we need to go up in arms when Synthetics kill Organics" is just racism pure and simple. Being Organic doesn't make you SPECIAL. This entire logic that "we need Organics to exist in the galaxy" is flawed.

In short, are you going to use genocide as standard tactics against races that are a threat to you, or not? To allow to wipe out the Geth means I also have the moral imperative to wipe out the Batarians and Vorcha "because they are a threat".

And if you say I can't do that because they are organic... Well, why the hell not?
Quote:
Sci fi tends to make everyone follow human standards, but completely different beings could (and should) have completely different ways of thinking. Whether we agree with that way of thinking is a different story altogether, but that they have it should be all but guaranteed.
I don't have a problem with differing opinions. I do have a problem when Bioware telling us to AGREE with said ridiculous opinions. The Reaper's plans are stupid, but Bioware does not think so.
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Old 2012-07-01, 18:59   Link #3334
Keroko
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You seem to be misunderstanding something here... the reapers' goal is not preservation of peace, it's preservation of organic life. If batarians and vorcha somehow managed to kill all other intelligent species, there'd still be organic life. Ergo, it does not conflict with the reapers' goals.

Synthetics doing the same though, would wipe out all organic life. Thus endangering the goal of the reapers.

And you still seem to look at things from a human point of view. "we need organics to exist in the galaxy" needs a logical reason? No, it doesn't. It's just that this is their programming. Again, don't look at it from a human point of view. Humans seek their own goals. Synthetics have their goals from creation and live by them.

Different way of thinking.
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Old 2012-07-01, 19:07   Link #3335
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You seem to be misunderstanding something here... the reapers' goal is not preservation of peace, it's preservation of organic life. If batarians and vorcha somehow managed to kill all other intelligent species, there'd still be organic life. Ergo, it does not conflict with the reapers' goals.

Synthetics doing the same though, would wipe out all organic life. Thus endangering the goal of the reapers.

And you still seem to look at things from a human point of view. "we need organics to exist in the galaxy" needs a logical reason? No, it doesn't. It's just that this is their programming. Again, don't look at it from a human point of view. Humans seek their own goals. Synthetics have their goals from creation and live by them.

Different way of thinking.
As I say, just because it is a different way of thinking doesn't give Bioware the right to tell us they are right. Bioware flat out told us everything Reapers said should be accepted at face value, that if we disagree we should just die.

It is one thing to have a Synthetic way of thinking. It is another entirely that Bioware told us everything we do is irrelevant because what the Reapers want is more important.
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Old 2012-07-01, 20:05   Link #3336
DonQuigleone
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People keep making the mistake of labelling the Reapers as machines. Asides from the fact they're all giant spaceships, there's no reason to think they are machines, at least in the conventional sense.

The exact nature of the Reapers is not elaborated upon at any point in the game (I would consider this a plus, not a minus myself...). We only really have two hints:

1. The Geth called them "the Old Machines", I don't think this means much, it was convenient to Sovereign for the Geth to think of him as a fellow machine.

2. Reaper manufacture is shown to require turning organics into Tang, and constructing some kind of metal exoskeleton.

My hunch is that the reaper is a large brain or something using the tang, surrounded by a metal exoskeleton and weaponry, used to protect it.

Even if they are machines, they're not programmed in any conventional sense. Reapers have their own free will (albeit one subservient to the Star-Child).

The reapers could have any number of reasons for wiping out life on a regular basis, the stated reason of "organic vs. synthetic" is silly, but you could think of any number of reasons.

But frankly, the Reapers don't have to justify themselves to us. It's like God in the Book of Job. In Job, the question is asked "why does god allow bad things to happen to good people" and the answer is "God does not have to explain himself, he does not have to justify himself". While it is unsatisfying (as it dodges the question), it is true.

The reapers don't need logic for their actions, they just are.

Unfortunately, Bioware felt the need to explain their galactic plan, I say Boooo. The reapers don't have to explain themselves to puny mortals like us. We simply must obey or die.
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Old 2012-07-01, 22:37   Link #3337
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Actually from what I recall, the blue kid says that the creators became the first Reapers. They didn't want to but there was no choice. I interpreted that as: "Creators came up with a plan, made the Reaper blueprints, then chose to become themselves Reapers because they probably trusted no other sentience, organic or otherwise to fulfill the plan. Given a better choice, they'd have avoided that."
That's too idealistic. The Starchild outright says that the creators didn't want to ascend but the solution was carried out anyway. It wasn't something they planned, it was a solution the the first Reaper came up with on their own because of certain unknowns that we may never know. All we know is that the Creators went to war with Synthetics and made what would later become a Reaper which forced Ascension upon its creator race as the final solution.
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Old 2012-07-01, 23:04   Link #3338
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Old 2012-07-01, 23:35   Link #3339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Unfortunately, Bioware felt the need to explain their galactic plan, I say Boooo. The reapers don't have to explain themselves to puny mortals like us. We simply must obey or die.
Bioware explaining the Reapers' motivations is just as bad as if Lovecraft explained Cthulhu's motivations.
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Old 2012-07-02, 00:24   Link #3340
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When you have a super-overpowered evil. There is no need to explain their motivation, just make them look awesome~ From my point of view.
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