AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-07-02, 20:31   Link #29501
Kwr32
Kakerawalker
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: The Right Side of the Internet
Send a message via Skype™ to Kwr32
I've watched this thread for a while, but never actually posted. I do have some theories and questions about Umineko. ...Said theories are basically jokes, the theory I mainly believe in is the George Culprit Theory of which there are many variants. The one I've come up with is a bit... well, I guess normal, but I may post it later to receive feedback on it anyway.

As for these (joke) theories:

1. Yasu is the greatest roleplayer known to mankind. I actually wonder if this is true, since it's in a sense how I see the entire Shkanon thing.

2. Prime doesn't exist, the Rokkenjima Incident is a mass media troll and Tohya and Ikuko are getting rich off it while Ange and Eva are having a great time looking down on anyone who believes in it in their minds, especially Ange. The aforementioned four are the real Ushiromiyas.

3. The culprit of Prime is the adventurous little Maria, who goes outside and gets lost in a forest, finding a secret entrance somewhere underground! She finds a mysterious clock, and, ignoring the obvious giant pile of gold in the room, gets fascinated with the switch because it seems to do absolutely nothing. She turns it on the side that it wasn't on before and leaves to see if anything as changed. Nothing has, so she explores the forest some more. In the meanwhile, Eva is writing her thousand plans to ensure the truth about Kinzo's status is revealed in her diary. Rosa believes Maria's still at the guesthouse, and the cousins are going batshit crazy that she isn't there. So near midnight, they decide to get all the adults' help, and kaboom goes that clock. Maria is still in the blast range, but her distance is enough so that she isn't completely vaporized and her jaw remains. It's her jaw because she was climbing a tree and trying to get and apple by biting it off and climbing down. ...Or something.

4. Umineko and Higurashi both take place in the Nasuverse because Ryu07 is a fanboy. I wonder just what possibilities could stem from this idiocy, honestly.

As for my questions, at the moment I only have one that's been bothering me for a bit, and it stems from Ougon:
Does anyone know the nature of Black Battler's "Black Truth", or is it just some cool stuff that exists for no apparent reason other than to make it so that he seems evil?
Kwr32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-02, 20:37   Link #29502
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
The "Black Truth" thing is basically just because it's cool and evil-sounding. In reality "black truth" is equivalent to black ink in a book...or the white text of Umineko. The default 'text' and 'speech' we use normally.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-02, 20:58   Link #29503
GabrieliosP
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Natal-RN, Brazil
Age: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The "Black Truth" thing is basically just because it's cool and evil-sounding. In reality "black truth" is equivalent to black ink in a book...or the white text of Umineko. The default 'text' and 'speech' we use normally.
I prefer the theory that Black Truth is something among these lines:

Ushiromiya Rosa never loved her daughter Ushiromiya Maria.
Ushiromiya Eva despised Ushiromiya Ange with all her heart and soul until the last second of her life.


Okay, the sentences above aren't really truths but you get the idea. B.Battler is supposed to be a heartless killer (as in he lacks the "heart" of crime, the whydunnit) so it makes sense for the only known wielder of Black Truth if the Black Truth is like this.
GabrieliosP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-02, 21:03   Link #29504
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
One might be gifted with the the power to see what no one else can see. But as long as he's the only one with that power, and as long as he can't demonstrate that what he sees is real, then his "reality" is no different from an illusion.
But if that person can get just one other person to see what they can see, they can create an entire Universe.

And all that jazz.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-02, 21:51   Link #29505
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The "Black Truth" thing is basically just because it's cool and evil-sounding. In reality "black truth" is equivalent to black ink in a book...or the white text of Umineko. The default 'text' and 'speech' we use normally.
Most of the time we refer to it as "the text" even. I say it like that when talking about foreshadowing in umineko.

I've never heard of this being connected with B.Battler though. Probably mentioned in the fighting game I guess? Haven't played that.

@GabrieliosP: I don't see any difference between that and a heartless blue truth though.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-02, 22:15   Link #29506
GabrieliosP
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Natal-RN, Brazil
Age: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Most of the time we refer to it as "the text" even. I say it like that when talking about foreshadowing in umineko.

I've never heard of this being connected with B.Battler though. Probably mentioned in the fighting game I guess? Haven't played that.

@GabrieliosP: I don't see any difference between that and a heartless blue truth though.
B.Battler has Black Truth instead of heartless Blue Truth 'cause he's SUPAH EBIL.

Also, Battler's meta super in Ougon is named "Blue Truth that pierces through everything" and is a blue beam. B.Battler's is a black beam named "Black Truth that pierces through everything".

Also, Battler has some attacks with the name "Blue Truth" in it. In B.Battler's moveset "Blue Truth" is changed to "Black Truth".
GabrieliosP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-02, 22:22   Link #29507
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
The thing is, EP7 defines Black and White text as ordinary text. And it's kind of...more canon than Ougon.


Black Battler is just invoking "rule of cool." That's all.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-02, 22:23   Link #29508
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Maybe black text is just really really blue and you can't tell.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-02, 22:34   Link #29509
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The difference between reality and illusion. There are only two ways to tell them apart:

One is by checking how consistent and logic they are. If they're not, then they're probably illusions.
One is by checking how many people see them or agree about their existence. If you're the only person that sees them, then they're probably illusions.
The problem I see is, that I don't think this applies to Umineko, though of course this is a valid reality construct.

In Umineko truth and reality are very much different and similar to Slavoy Zizek's reading of Jaques Lacan, truth is just a verbalized reconstruction of the reality before our eyes, formulated by using everything that is not perceivable as a signifier towards what is perceivable.
Truth how it is handled in itself within the text of Umineko is basically an illusion. It is the idea that we can perfectly reconstruct what is (or was) real with words. Both stories about the human crime as well as the demonic ritual that took place on Rokkenjima are equally "illusions". For example Black Battler does not only consist of "Evil Sorcerer Battler" theories, but also of simple "Battler = human-culprit" theories. The reality of Rokkenjima during those 2 days is made eternally inaccessible for us and therefore stays in an eternal vortex of being everything at the same time.

@AuraTwilight: I'd love to hear you get more "incoherent"
What you said so far sounds pretty logical to me and applies perfectly to Umineko.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-02, 23:16   Link #29510
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I managed to stop myself before I got into my legitimate "incoherent" mode. I just noticed by vocabularity was changing and did a hardcore backpedal.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 00:56   Link #29511
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maybe black text is just really really blue and you can't tell.
I think there tends to be a misunderstanding about Blue Truth - it CAN be wrong, after all. That's why Will's solutions didn't need fancy colors - he had hit the mark, so there was no red that could refute them, anyways.

Blue truth is only effective so long as it hasn't been cut down by a Red truth. But ... regular old, non-colored words achieve the same thing, really. Making it blue just ... makes the postulatory process cooler.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 01:23   Link #29512
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
And requires a response, which is why it was invented in the first place. If Beatrice wasn't being a contrarian asshole we'd of never needed it (or, rather, if the fanbase had trusted Ryukishi more, we wouldn't of needed it).

But Blue Truth works well as "the truth of humans" like Erika and Dlanor defined it. I like that use for it.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 04:14   Link #29513
ndqanh_vn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post

Blue truth is only effective so long as it hasn't been cut down by a Red truth. But ... regular old, non-colored words achieve the same thing, really. Making it blue just ... makes the postulatory process cooler.

Hm, according to the rule the difference is that the rule is changed slightly by Gretel in EP4. Now the witch side has to respond to every statement, or maybe more correct, theories that the human side put forward. Before that the rule is really bad for human side, as the witch might win with only one illusion remained, while the human must debunked all the fantasy of the witch to win.



I think it makes the argurment flow actually easier to follow, as it clarify in a clearer maner which Red is used against which Blue (which facts are used against which theories)


I'm still not sure about what is the Golden Truth. Is it the view that is intended by the Game Master? That's why it not Red Truth (it's not objective), but it is closer to the core of the story than Red? (Yasu definitely did not use magic for Maria's candy). And therefore anybody understands the "heart" could use it. Wait, or only GM can use it? I think both are mentioned?
ndqanh_vn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 04:45   Link #29514
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Anyone who qualifies as a Gamemaster can use it, therefore it's usable by those who understand the truth. It's essentially a fanfiction that doesn't contradict canon.

For instance, let's say I wrote a Forgery, and the premise was that Shannon and Kanon are separate people. This is not a valid Gold, because we all know it is false. Not that it's an interesting premise, but I can't claim it's the truth of Umineko.

Now say my premise was George did it. Does it contradict the facts? No. It's a perfectly legitimate theory that answers all the questions necessary. Is it the correct answer intended by Ryukishi, Battler, Beatrice, whoever?

Not necessarily. But prove me wrong.

Essentially, think of it as "A blue created by the Gamemaster."
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 05:15   Link #29515
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Hm, according to the rule the difference is that the rule is changed slightly by Gretel in EP4. Now the witch side has to respond to every statement, or maybe more correct, theories that the human side put forward. Before that the rule is really bad for human side, as the witch might win with only one illusion remained, while the human must debunked all the fantasy of the witch to win.
Except the witch ALREADY had to respond to every statement. Battler accepted the validity of Red Truth without much argument, in order to avoid a perpetual stalemate. However, it's still the witch's obligation to INTRODUCE her illusions, or ANY sort of thing Battler says is an acceptable truth.

For example, I think their very first argument with red was about the chapel door in EP2, to which Battler just says "there was a hidden door somewhere", which ended in Beato responding that the adults had enterred through the single front door, in red. If she DIDN'T respond, Battler's "hidden door" theory would have been totally acceptable, and her illusion would've been crushed. At that point, she plays pretty coy and gives him a false victory with a theory about switching keys around or something. Anyway, the point remains that until she gave more red to support herself, she would've lost. If Battler had said, in plain text, "The chapel door was never locked in the first place!!", she would have been utterly defeated.

...well, unless she decided to go "logic error" mode and make up some more constricting red on the fly. Anyway, the point remains that as far as a human victory is concerned, the Blue Truth doesn't accomplish anything that wasn't already being done.

However, I agree with AuraTwilight's sentiment that the Blue was very interesting and fitting, THEMATICALLY, and I enjoyed it alot. It also allowed for alot of badass meta-imagery, like Beato literally being struck with wedges of Blue truth, and was flashy and enjoyable. I guess I'm just saying that it wasn't strictly NECESSARY, and was a ploy by Ryukishi to squeeze some more tension out of things.

Like, a more legitimate version of Dlanor's blatant cheating for Erika during the EP6 wedding, or that whole nonsense Ange mentioned once about having to respond "within a minute".
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 07:01   Link #29516
ndqanh_vn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Except the witch ALREADY had to respond to every statement. Battler accepted the validity of Red Truth without much argument, in order to avoid a perpetual stalemate. However, it's still the witch's obligation to INTRODUCE her illusions, or ANY sort of thing Battler says is an acceptable truth.
I think the point is different. The witch COULD have given up on that point, but as long as there's one "illusion" that the human side could not answer, she still won (as there's something that cannot be done by human). She might lose everything elseo but just needed to defend only ONE illusion, it's enough. That means she's allowed to lose most of the small battles but still be able to claim victory at the end.

But the human side has to respond to EVERY illusion that she gave out. If he answered all but just ONE puzzle, it's still his lost as he could not answer EVERYTHING by human means. Even if it's only one point, it is still magic. So he has to win every small battles to claim victory.

Well, if it is an actual game, I think it is pretty unfair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Now say my premise was George did it. Does it contradict the facts? No. It's a perfectly legitimate theory that answers all the questions necessary. Is it the correct answer intended by Ryukishi, Battler, Beatrice, whoever?
I actually likes the Geogre theory. He's too shady that it is hard to imagine he was innocent. But it is full of problem. I bet if it is the truth, Ange will say something like "Hell that bitch's son was the killer! And she kept repeating to me he's so awesome and shit!"
ndqanh_vn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 07:13   Link #29517
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
But the human side has to respond to EVERY illusion that she gave out. If he answered all but just ONE puzzle, it's still his lost as he could not answer EVERYTHING by human means. Even if it's only one point, it is still magic. So he has to win every small battles to claim victory.
Yes, I think we're in agreement that Battler would need to answer EVERYTHING, but that's still the case whether he says everything in blue or not. He can answer everything in regular-coloured text, too, and not be any worse off. Either way he still has to solve every riddle, and either way the witch can decide to accept a false answer as a legitimate one. :-/

Last edited by Kealym; 2012-07-03 at 07:38.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 07:16   Link #29518
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Illusion and reality ?
Rokkenjima is fictional.
Magic is fictional.
In many fictions magic is real.
In Umineko Rokkenjima is real.
In reality they are only fiction.

No fictions are "more real" then others, wether they make sense or not.
Yes the more I think about it, the more this sounds likely. In Umineko the real "definition" of magic is "fiction".
But let us not forget how the characters in the metaworld are called by canon of the narrator:

幻想の住人

In other words "illusion dwellers", which implies the world they belong to is an illusion.

The question in umineko is not whether the metaworld is "real" or an "illusion", it is outright stated that it is an illusion. The question is whether this illusion is still a form of existence or not and how much an illusion can influence the real world.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 07:42   Link #29519
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But let us not forget how the characters in the metaworld are called by canon of the narrator:

幻想の住人

In other words "illusion dwellers", which implies the world they belong to is an illusion.
Though I'd argue that the implication the author was getting at is much closer to this term:

幻想文学

Gensoubungaku is a term that is not all that easy to equate with a genre or literary trope in Western theory. It is most often translated as Fantasy literature, but also encompasses fables, legends and myths, basically everything that deals with the super- or preternatural. It basically goes back to the greek and latin terminology and thus today Gensoubungaku can be everything from epic poems like the Odyssey, religious texts like the Bible, to modern stuff like Edgar Allan Poe and postmodern Magic Realism....or yes, also Mystery literature that does not commit to a fully rational explanation.

So I'd argue that it is much more reasonable (especially in the light of how much Ryűkishi made this a meta-textual discussion with all the name and term drops) to understand this term as "Inhabitants of the Fantastic".
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-03, 08:17   Link #29520
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
But the human side has to respond to EVERY illusion that she gave out. If he answered all but just ONE puzzle, it's still his lost as he could not answer EVERYTHING by human means. Even if it's only one point, it is still magic. So he has to win every small battles to claim victory.

Well, if it is an actual game, I think it is pretty unfair. :heh
Yes, but on the other hand, if Battler finds out the truth himself, then Beato cannot do much. The only thing Beato can do is to to delude Battler from the truth, but all in all, after the preperation part, her active part is done and then she has to react to Battler's moves and can only hope that it works out.


Also regarding the blue truth: There is a huge difference to before. If I understood it right, then after Battler uses a (legitimate) blue truth, Beato has only 2 options:

1. She responds immidietly in red.
2. She responds in red at "endgame".

After all the reason for the blue truth to be introduced was, so that Beato couldn't just destroy a theory at any time she sees fit. Now she has to decide whether she crushes the blue truth from the beginning, or if she wants to let it be till endgame.
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.