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Old 2012-07-03, 15:55   Link #21
Tempest35
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Speed does entail Mobility, Relfexes (is a Reaction within a span of Time so including it twice would be redundant so it would have to be either/or), Agility. We'd also have to make the note that this does NOT include spells that do instant transmission/teleportation.
Jellal's Meteor spell would fall under a speed class since it ENHANCES his speed and reaction and also gives him flight.

In Gildartz case of the prosthetic limbs, I don't think it affects his speed enough to matter. By all accounts, he's most likely using his magic to facilitate the movement of those limbs so they move just as his normal limbs would do. And he was already in good physical condition but it's his sheer magical power that what makes him so devastating. Of course, being in his physical condition, it doesn't hurt him any, especially since he's also a physical brawler type himself.

Most of the mages have already trained their bodies to utilize their respective magic as they need it. The more physically involved one's magic is, it only makes sense that the user is in good enough physical condition to use it effectively. The Vanish Bros were correct in assuming that most mages neglect to condition their body since they almost specialize in their magical ability.

Let's compare Natsu's physique to Gray's and Lucy's to Erza's , (who's arguably the most physically fit female we've seen in the series, despite the lack of definition her body shows). Natsu hits people with his fist a lot more than most other mages so his physical condition is extremely toned and muscular. Gray does not have to hit his opponent to utilize his magic but thanks to regular brawls against Natsu, his body has also becomed toned and muscular as well, not to Natsu's extent but it is close. It is demonstrated when Gray lost most of his ability to channel his magic against Lyon back on the Garuna Island and he resorted to just beating the crap out of him. This is one of the rarer instances where one's physical condition played a decisive part in a fight - and it works since the two were utilizing the same type of magic and thus had a much more balanced playing field. But physical condition comes into play as a sub-attribute to Durability and not to Speed or Offense. I guess another instance would be when Gray fought Juvia. Her scalding water had to remind him of Natsu's flame. If he didn't take Natsu's flame as much as he had in the past, he most likely would have lost against Juvia's very effective attack. Again, this works as a sub-attribute to Durablity.

For the Lucy/Erza comparision, it really falls flat because showing muscled females is NOT Mashima's style at all... In Rave Master's case, the strongest female was also a Dragon who was shape-shifted to a human form but still retained much of her dragonic strength. It doesn't help that she looks like a lingerie model while being that strong as well... While Erza is NOT a Dragon in human form, she is often compared to having a monster's strength. This is partly due to her habit of carrying around so much luggage and also her drive to become a powerful mage as well. She handles a variety of weapons: from swords to spears, to clubs, to axes and all of them are of various sizes and weight. I assume that when she is in her general default armor and using her weapons, that they are normal weapons of appropiate weight and density. With all of her 'weight training', using heavy polearms and swords should not be a problem for her. When she uses her armors, the weapons that she uses along with them might become lighter since it is attached to the armor and the magic within them. I'm slightly tenative on this point since it's obvious that while she is in Purgetory Armor, that huge sword definitely weighs a lot but she is able to jump and manuver so deftly, it doesn't really have a drawback other than being marginally slower on the attack speed. It makes sense that Erza is heavy for a girl her size due to all the muscle she has as well as just being solidly built (bone density, I'm using bone density to explain her weight ).

As for Lucy, in appearance, she is close to Erza but unlike Titania, Lucy does not nearly have 1/5th of Titania's physical constitution. Even so, Lucy has taken enormous amounts of physical punishment over the time she's been with Fairy Tail so while she won't be tanking hits, she does have a surprising amount of magical power at her disposal. This is evident in the simple fact that she is a summoner-class mage. Lucy is very battle-hardened for a summoner and able to use physical weapons as well (her whip). Lucy may very well be the most physically fit summoner-class mage in the series so far. But again, her physical fitness plays a much larger role in her overall durability than to her overall stamina (magical capacity).

Another girl to consider is Mirajane, who is much closer to Erza's lvl and also Ultear as well. The both of them are obviously physically strong, moreso in Ultear's case than Mirajane's. Ultear was out-techniqueing Gray in a stand-up physical fight, using manuvers that only someone that had trained their body long and hard could pull off. Mirajane's strength comes out when she uses her Take Over magic in that she gets extremely physical while in Satan Soul and all their variants.
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Last edited by Tempest35; 2012-07-03 at 16:28. Reason: Some other points to consider came up...
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Old 2012-07-03, 18:57   Link #22
longguilol
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@Tempest35

You just won the internet with that post.

On topic: I'm inclined to agree with most of the points that you've made. Reactions & Reflexes are pretty much one & the same. We'll just stick with Reflexes. Also, I agree that Physical Conditioning plays more of a role in a character's Durability than their Offense/Speed.

However, I'm not sure about the teleportation part. IMO, character's with teleportation abilities should be given a higher Speed score.

Son Goku (from DBZ) for example, was able to utilize his teleportation technique to its full advantage in battle:

-Convenient escape mechanism: running away without being detected or putting oneself at risk of being tracked/chased down, especially, by a superior opposition. [Goku vs. Fat Buu]

-Sneaking up to/or behind an opponent almost instantaneously and hitting them with full power. [Goku vs. Cell / Goku vs. Pikkon]


As such, wouldn't teleportation be a huge advantage to someone in a fight?

Doranbolt/Mest's Speed score should reflect his teleportation abilities, IMO.

Edit:

Slightly tweaked the definitions in the opening post based on the discussion so far.

Last edited by longguilol; 2012-07-03 at 19:37.
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Old 2012-07-03, 20:01   Link #23
Tempest35
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If any of the others can come up with validations for putting teleportation with speed, I'll accept it

EDIT: In the case of Mest...even though he had that 'teleportation-like' ability, it really didn't help him in a battle against Gray...lol. The way he used it, yeah, I would add it on as a 'speed'-class magic but it's the 'magic vs ability' thing that does it for me. But, if I allow Meteor for Jelly, I guess I have to allow this manuver for Mest.

I guess I'm not fully clear yet as to if we are measuring their base attributes without any self-buffs or whether we are allowing for their magic to be active when we take the measure of their attributes.

For instance, are we taking Natsu's basic haymaker punch or his Kayruu no Tekken or even one of his Metsuryuu Ougi as a factor to his physical strength in Offense? If we split up Offense between Physical Str and Magical Str, then we'd have to do the same for Defense, which would result in Durability being moved to underneath Defense for the physical side and Magical Defense being created to balance it out.

Of course, this means that we could also do smaller ability lists for many of their moves, as to how strong Natsu's fire-enhanced attacks are in constrast to basic attacks or even to him being in Dragon Force Mode, but that might be too much work...
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Last edited by Tempest35; 2012-07-03 at 21:21.
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Old 2012-07-04, 09:40   Link #24
longguilol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
If any of the others can come up with validations for putting teleportation with speed, I'll accept it

EDIT: In the case of Mest...even though he had that 'teleportation-like' ability, it really didn't help him in a battle against Gray...lol. The way he used it, yeah, I would add it on as a 'speed'-class magic but it's the 'magic vs ability' thing that does it for me. But, if I allow Meteor for Jelly, I guess I have to allow this manuver for Mest.

I guess I'm not fully clear yet as to if we are measuring their base attributes without any self-buffs or whether we are allowing for their magic to be active when we take the measure of their attributes.

For instance, are we taking Natsu's basic haymaker punch or his Kayruu no Tekken or even one of his Metsuryuu Ougi as a factor to his physical strength in Offense? If we split up Offense between Physical Str and Magical Str, then we'd have to do the same for Defense, which would result in Durability being moved to underneath Defense for the physical side and Magical Defense being created to balance it out.

Of course, this means that we could also do smaller ability lists for many of their moves, as to how strong Natsu's fire-enhanced attacks are in constrast to basic attacks or even to him being in Dragon Force Mode, but that might be too much work...
I don't think we should take "Gray vs. Mest/Doranbolt" seriously, since the latter obviously had other ulterior motives and most likely wasn't trying to win.

As to how to measure the attributes, one way of doing it would be as follows: (I'll take Offense as an example):

-Magical Power/Magical Enchanced Strength: X points
-Physical Strength: Y Points
-Versatility/Attack Range: Z Points
-Maximum damage via single attack ability: W Points

Total: X+Y+Z+W <-- total score used as a basis to come for an overall / accurate score for Offense, i.e, Offense would reflect the sum of the parts.

But, everyone will have the freedom to interpret the definitions the way they see fit, and come up with a respective score. After all, this is a fan based collaboration.

Durability & Defense are inherently different, since Defense covers any magical or physical ability that shield a character from taking damage, whereas, Durability tries to quantify how much damage one is able to withstand, etc.

Physical forms of Defense could be armor, shields, or large frying pans (Vanish brothers)
Magical forms of Defense could be energy waves that are able to nullify Magic, etc (example: Yuka Suzuki)
And then there are Physical forms of Defense that are Magically Enhanced (Erza Ultimate Defense Armor for example).

In the case of Defense, the better overall ability/form could be taken into consideration, or be given more weigh, as in:

Defense = better of (PHY DEF or MAG DEF). But the freedom to interpret how an overall score should derived is totally up to the voter.

Anyway, I was thinking that if everyone is cool with the current tentative attributes and their definitions, we should push ahead with the voting process.

Tentative timeline:

Now: ~14:30 Wednesday (GMT) - Time in Greenwich Mean Time
Voting Begins: ~06:00 Friday (GMT) - Time in Greenwich Mean Time

So in less than 40 hours.
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Old 2012-07-04, 10:32   Link #25
Tempest35
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Well I don't wat to overcomplicate it too much, but I wanted some provision for those who want to get really technical.
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Old 2012-07-04, 11:30   Link #26
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So, how would you calculate defense for someone like Juvia? Water body makes her impervious to physical attacks but she got owned by Erza and 1HKO'd herself(?) in Freed's runes.
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Old 2012-07-04, 11:58   Link #27
longguilol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Well I don't wat to overcomplicate it too much, but I wanted some provision for those who want to get really technical.
No worries, thanks to your input I'm sure others now have a clearer picture of how to vote for each attribute (which factors to consider and how to apply them)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
So, how would you calculate defense for someone like Juvia? Water body makes her impervious to physical attacks but she got owned by Erza and 1HKO'd herself(?) in Freed's runes.
Those were the exceptions, not the norm. Thanks to Erza's Sea Empress Armor, she was able to fight Juvia's water form with water. As for the battle against Freed, Juvia willingly turned herself into water and destroyed one of the thunder palace lacryma and got herself electrified by the lightning. (Lightning > Water). So that was more of a suicide on her part.

Unsurprisingly, according to the GMG Report, Juvia's defense scores 5/5, i.e. it is pretty impervious, but not perfect. Yuka Suzuki defense's (more imprevious) scores 6/5 (COOL label), for example. I think no defense is absolutely perfect.

Her durability is questionable though (ability to withstand damage).

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-07-24 at 06:13.
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Old 2012-07-04, 13:58   Link #28
Tempest35
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Juvia's defense is pretty much 'all-or-nothing'. Either you swing and you do no damage completely, or you swing and you hit. Thing is, you'd have to hit with a non-physical attack or another element. Depending on how high the elemental mastery is of the other person and how much magical power they have, they can overwhelm her:

Natsu can pretty much turn her to steam...
Jura can squish her between rocks or bury in dirt over and over again...
Gray can freeze her...
Laxus can electrocute her...
Wendy could blow her so far apart that her magic can't hold the water together...
Corba could probably posion the water, and therefore, Juvia herself...

With the elemental counters, it's pretty much 'rock-paper-scissors'.

But even with the case of Meldy, someone who was thrashing her in the first half of the fight, when Juvia got her 2nd wind, she was curb-stomping Meldy so bad, it was unbelievable.

I'll still give Juvia a 5/5 DEF since it takes a special/specific attack to even do damage to her but when it does, it usually is a knockout if they hit hard enough.
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Old 2012-07-06, 22:50   Link #29
longguilol
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@Tempest35

Great analysis. I think since she's so used to relying on her defense, and hence, not being used to actually being hit/taking damage, her durability is pretty low.

As always, opinions may vary, that's why a poll will be created

Edit:

Realized that I have to be somewhere tonight, as such, I'll open up the character polls a bit ahead of schedule (by ~2 hours). Since a new chapter is expected to come out tomorrow, the turn-out should be satisfactory.

Vote Here -- or check the opening/first post.


Be sure to have fun and remember to vote as objectively as possible
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Old 2012-07-07, 11:12   Link #30
Tempest35
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We are measuring them as they are at this present time?
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Old 2012-07-07, 11:32   Link #31
longguilol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
We are measuring them as they are at this present time?
Indeed.

You can always refrain from voting if you don't know / don't have sufficient information / or just don't feel like it.

Edit:

Here is a tentative work-in-progress battle card of Lucy (by ~Sal~: follow on deviantart)

Spoiler:


Please let us know your thoughts about it, and if it could use some improvements (colors, presentation, picture, etc).

Do you have a better picture that could be used in mind? Don't hesitate to share it
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Last edited by longguilol; 2012-07-07 at 11:58.
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Old 2012-07-07, 12:02   Link #32
Kafriel
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Sex-appeal: 0 I'd say she's got more stamina than your average mage, she's handled consecutive and multiple summons at times. Probably a bit less defense too, since her only defensive spirit is horologium.
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Old 2012-07-07, 12:20   Link #33
longguilol
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Sex-appeal: 0 I'd say she's got more stamina than your average mage, she's handled consecutive and multiple summons at times. Probably a bit less defense too, since her only defensive spirit is horologium.
Oh well

Can't change the results now, after ~300 votes. How do you like the presentation though? Could it use some improvements? Let us know what you think ^^
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Old 2012-07-07, 13:33   Link #34
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Presentation's good enough, no problems there. Time to start voting
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Old 2012-07-08, 14:38   Link #35
longguilol
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Voting Results


Lucy, Natsu, Erza, Gray, & Happy:


Edit: Check the opening post.
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Last edited by longguilol; 2012-07-09 at 14:57.
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Old 2012-07-14, 10:43   Link #36
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Added more results. Check the opening/first post

--Curent Ranking:
Spoiler:
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Old 2014-04-25, 15:43   Link #37
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Have you discontinued you this, or why has there not been an update for so long?
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