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Old 2012-07-03, 08:37   Link #29521
Kealym
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Also regarding the blue truth: There is a huge difference to before. If I understood it right, then after Battler uses a (legitimate) blue truth, Beato has only 2 options:

1. She responds immidietly in red.
2. She responds in red at "endgame".
Maybe this is where I'm misunderstanding?
Because that sounds like what she ALREADY had the choices of doing before the Blue was introduced.
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Old 2012-07-03, 08:45   Link #29522
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Maybe this is where I'm misunderstanding?
Because that sounds like what she ALREADY had the choices of doing before the Blue was introduced.
The difference is She doesn't have a choice when you make a blue truth. She has to respond to a blue truth by the end of the game or the blue truth is considered true by her silence. With White text she doesn't have to do that. There's many times in the first 3 games, where Battler made a theory in white text, and she said that she "refused to respond". Blue text was added to make the game more fair.
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Old 2012-07-03, 08:58   Link #29523
GreyZone
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Didn't EP5 show is well? Thanks to the blue truth, the issues were either resolved immidietly, or at the trial. I am sure there never was a case where lambda out of nowhere returned to an older issue that was resolved already.
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Old 2012-07-03, 09:55   Link #29524
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But let us not forget how the characters in the metaworld are called by canon of the narrator:

幻想の住人

In other words "illusion dwellers", which implies the world they belong to is an illusion.

The question in umineko is not whether the metaworld is "real" or an "illusion", it is outright stated that it is an illusion. The question is whether this illusion is still a form of existence or not and how much an illusion can influence the real world.
Well my point is that these questions apply as much to meta-narrative characters as they do to board characters as they do to prime events, as far as I'm concerned.

If X is an illusion, it doesn't mean that Y is not.
Also there is absolutely no logic behind the idea that a fictional being who admits to be so is less real (or more fictional) then another who does not.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Didn't EP5 show is well? Thanks to the blue truth, the issues were either resolved immidietly, or at the trial. I am sure there never was a case where lambda out of nowhere returned to an older issue that was resolved already.
Arc 4 Ura ?
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Old 2012-07-03, 14:07   Link #29525
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Tch. Look at these fools. Believing Prime exists. Perhaps the Meta-World is the reality of things.

There never was a Rokkenjima. Can you find it on a map? Who are the Ushiromiyas, where is the evidence they ever existed? Can you attain it? Hah! You claim it is locked away in a box, filed on dusty police shelves in a universe you cannot see, cannot touch, cannot research.

There is a simple enough reason: It does not exist. It is not there. No one exists in it to provide you with that information. The information is a null value unto itself, unable to provide anything approaching useful data. The only "information" is information you generate to satisfy your own belief in a nonexistent truth.

This world of ideas, this world of speculation and
arbitrary assignment of truth, is the only world that exists.

For the crime to have a human culprit, it is not necessary that a "human world" actually exist outside the theater of Rokkenjima. Rokkenjima exists suspended in an endless and featureless ocean; there is nowhere to escape to and nothing that can be done to change the parameters of this existence. Humans exist upon it but they did not arrive there and they did not leave there. There is no "there" but where they already exist.

If you were born with motive to kill, what difference would it make than if you had developed that motive through experience? If a man were born believing he was once a man named Ushiromiya Battler, and apprehending and creating the supposedly "lost" memories of the same, in the absence of any further proof it is indistinguishable whether any such man has ever truly existed in the first place. Perhaps every instance of experience is nothing more than the memories which dress your piece on the witch's board. Or perhaps you merely deign to play at times, when in truth you exist above and within it simultaneously.

Who are the goats? Who are the witches? What identities make up the Grand Senate of creators and observers? In the absence of any other evidence, what else can you conclude? It is you. And possibly me. Or perhaps I am just a manifestation of existential self-doubt you formulated to keep your life from becoming boring. One way or another, it makes no difference.

(So gotta write this forgery... after the other two I'm working on...)
How do I prove that I exist? Maybe I don't exist. /Vivi

But I certainly would read such a forgery if you ever got around to it. XD

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
*Mind blowing stuff on the nature of reality in Umineko*
I didn't completely understand everything you were saying here, but what I got out of it is that in your interpretation of Umineko, the Meta-World always exists, but the form Prime is in gives shape and context to the Meta-World's existence. And the Meta-World affects how us (The readers) view Prime, which affects the Meta World and so on and so forth.

Like I said earlier, it's certainly a very interesting idea, but I'm not quite sure what to make of Umineko as a whole with it in mind. I see how it fits on a thematic level, though.
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Old 2012-07-03, 14:21   Link #29526
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Well my point is that these questions apply as much to meta-narrative characters as they do to board characters as they do to prime events, as far as I'm concerned.

If X is an illusion, it doesn't mean that Y is not.
Also there is absolutely no logic behind the idea that a fictional being who admits to be so is less real (or more fictional) then another who does not.
Well first: it's not a fictional being that admits to be an illusion, but the narration that says so. This is one of those cases where you can't really tell who is the narrator with certainty, I suppose you can speculate that it's Tohya or who knows who else, but you can tell for sure and at any rate it is a second party who makes this distinction.

Secondly since there is a narration that makes a distinction between "humans" and "dwellers of illusion" I argue that there is a logical basis to claim that the seconds are less real than the firsts. If you don't agree then you need to explain what's the narrative significance of this distinction in the narration. If it was meaningless the author wouldn't have written it.

It might not prove I'm right with absolute certainty, but I think it's wrong to claim it means nothing.

As for "If X is an illusion, it doesn't mean that Y is not."
Of course not, but if it is our premise that X an illusion then we are sure that "X" an illusion whereas we are not in the case of "Y", which amounts to a difference of at least 50%.
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Old 2012-07-03, 18:06   Link #29527
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The difference is She doesn't have a choice when you make a blue truth. She has to respond to a blue truth by the end of the game or the blue truth is considered true by her silence. With White text she doesn't have to do that. There's many times in the first 3 games, where Battler made a theory in white text, and she said that she "refused to respond". Blue text was added to make the game more fair.
Well, it was to give Battler more hope. No matter which way you look at it, the game was a losing game for Beatrice. The longer the game went on, the more red truths she gave out, and the more trapped she would become.
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Old 2012-07-03, 18:06   Link #29528
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It's actually a case where "You are told X is an illusion" period. No other info.

But... still end up believing "there must be a Y and it must not be an illusion - and the illusion of X must not be too far from Y".

Can you see why I find that "useless" as Battler say, at least?
It's like you are forever courting a "demon".
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Old 2012-07-03, 21:44   Link #29529
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Well, it was to give Battler more hope. No matter which way you look at it, the game was a losing game for Beatrice. The longer the game went on, the more red truths she gave out, and the more trapped she would become.
Yes, but it is in the grand scheme, at an individual game level it is still pretty unfair for human side. The blue balanced the game out a bit.

And isn't Yasu/Beatrice's aim is always for Battler to remember? So if he remembers and know the truth (ep 5 infamous:"And...I understand") doesn't it mean she already win?



Still think that the gold truth is pretty much Deus Ex Machina at the end of EP5.
I still remember the end of Witch and Wooland, when Battle screem out in gold something along the like: "I'M THE FREAKING GAME MASTER SO WHAT I SAY IS TRUE. "

Isn't it really how you interpreted the Gold, Jan-Poo?



This is some seperate issue but I don't quite get the "for world peace" thing in Amakusa and Okonogi.
Is that because they're afraid that the truth about the Italian submarines is annouced? Honestly I don't think she could find the gold or find any trace for the submarine story, which could be true or not.
In the same vein, I don't get why Amasuka has to kill Ange, too. The only way Ange is not killed is for her to abandon the fortune. It is quite irony then that the guy who kept speaking about LOVE ends up killing her for money, so I never took that theory serious.

At the end of EP6, I thought there would be some conspiracy behind...

Last edited by ndqanh_vn; 2012-07-03 at 21:54.
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Old 2012-07-03, 21:52   Link #29530
GabrieliosP
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Tecnically yes, when Battler figured the truth at the end of EP5 Beato fulfilled her goal, but sadly for her Battler figured out after she was dead. Then there was the whole thing with Chick-Beatrice at EP6 representing the Kuwadorian Beato and etc.
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Old 2012-07-03, 21:56   Link #29531
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Tecnically yes, when Battler figured the truth at the end of EP5 Beato fulfilled her goal, but sadly for her Battler figured out after she was dead. Then there was the whole thing with Chick-Beatrice at EP6 representing the Kuwadorian Beato and etc.
Which is creepily an echo of the whole incest issue of Kinzo.


Seriously I think the old guy is forgiven too easily. Love or not be damned, even if I understand his motive, I still find his action unforgivable.
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Old 2012-07-03, 22:01   Link #29532
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Shirakawa Go
Look into it, might be interesting if you didn't know about it.
Yeah I know about that place. What I mean't is the "actual" village doesn't exist like the disease and everything is all fictional which what makes it Hinimizawa.
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Old 2012-07-03, 23:26   Link #29533
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Still think that the gold truth is pretty much Deus Ex Machina at the end of EP5.
What happened is that the blue couldn't defeat the gold. That means that no matter how many theories arises about the truth that cannot be denied (even when supported by some level of red/facts), it cannot defeat belief/faith.

That seems pretty much fitting with the themes of Umineko so I take that scene as a way to present that idea to us as directly as possible. It also seems to suggest that either the truth is "really ugly" or "looks really ugly when you don't know it but really isn't".

Quote:
This is some seperate issue but I don't quite get the "for world peace" thing in Amakusa and Okonogi.
Is that because they're afraid that the truth about the Italian submarines is annouced? Honestly I don't think she could find the gold or find any trace for the submarine story, which could be true or not.
In the same vein, I don't get why Amasuka has to kill Ange, too. The only way Ange is not killed is for her to abandon the fortune. It is quite irony then that the guy who kept speaking about LOVE ends up killing her for money, so I never took that theory serious.

At the end of EP6, I thought there would be some conspiracy behind...
Well the only thing I can think of...
Okonoki claimed to be surprised when told he was the one who had said "without love it cannot be said". Now we see him talk about "world peace". That could be a way to define his character to us. He's the kind of guy who'll say grandiose sensational things on the spot without thinking much about them but he's a crook.

The other alternative I can think of is that this was a sort of alternate ending akin to arc 8's "trick" answer.
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Old 2012-07-03, 23:35   Link #29534
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post


Well the only thing I can think of...
Okonoki claimed to be surprised when told he was the one who had said "without love it cannot be said". Now we see him talk about "world peace". That could be a way to define his character to us. He's the kind of guy who'll say grandiose sensational things on the spot without thinking much about them but he's a crook.

The other alternative I can think of is that this was a sort of alternate ending akin to arc 8's "trick" answer.

Nobody could trust that child-killing mook from Higurashi, no matter how often he said about "love".

Actually what I am trying to ask is how Ange going to be related to "world peace" here?

Or as you say, it's just Okonogi smoothing things over. Still weird for Amakusa to agree, if he's not a jerk. And if he is, it is even weirder that in the end, Okonogi and Amakusa got everything they want just as plan. Actually in every kind of ending for Ange, to Okonogi he still got all the money. Okay now maybe it's not such an important plot thread.

I remembered there is a Conspiracy theory or something like that about Okonogi planned to kill the whole Ushiromiya family when EP6 comming out...
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Old 2012-07-04, 00:21   Link #29535
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Quote:
I didn't completely understand everything you were saying here, but what I got out of it is that in your interpretation of Umineko, the Meta-World always exists, but the form Prime is in gives shape and context to the Meta-World's existence. And the Meta-World affects how us (The readers) view Prime, which affects the Meta World and so on and so forth.

Like I said earlier, it's certainly a very interesting idea, but I'm not quite sure what to make of Umineko as a whole with it in mind. I see how it fits on a thematic level, though.
In a nutshell, "Meta creates Prime" and "Prime creates Meta" are both factually true, without contradiction (or atleast without negation of each other). There is Truth, but Truth may be mutable. Perhaps the devil is in the details, and the devil is a shapeshifter.

Perhaps when Beatrice writes a Gameboard, she isn't creating a fictional story OR creating an alternate universe, but rewriting reality itself, which can then shape the Meta-World and thus effect Prime again.

Bernkastel writes about Kyrie being the culprit, which makes it true, which makes people suspect Battler culprit theory, which makes Black Battler exist, which creates a story ABOUT Black Battler, which makes it true, which makes people think about....which makes....which becomes true....which....

Only the unveiling of Truth that claims to be Absolute can break the cycle, but doing so could kill all the sentient beings constantly born through the process. The truth may be liberating, but it may also be destructive. Which world is more important to you, Ange? Make your choice.

Quote:
Seriously I think the old guy is forgiven too easily. Love or not be damned, even if I understand his motive, I still find his action unforgivable.
In fairness to Kinzo, his remorse about what he did caused him to send his life down the shitter for something like 20 years, until the day he died. He didn't try to justify it; he didn't try to have his cake and eat it too, and he didn't try to move on with his life. He gave up everything in hopes of SOME sort of atonement, and when he finally found someone he felt he could give that atonement to, gave them literally everything he had to give them and still wanted to do more.

If you think he's not deserving of forgiveness, when he did everything he thought he could do, you...just might be kind of evil.

Quote:
Actually what I am trying to ask is how Ange going to be related to "world peace" here?
What is Okonogi's world? The business world. Relationships between corporations and the resulting legal and economic complications Ange poses.
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Old 2012-07-04, 02:19   Link #29536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Only the unveiling of Truth that claims to be Absolute can break the cycle, but doing so could kill all the sentient beings constantly born through the process. The truth may be liberating, but it may also be destructive. Which world is more important to you, Ange? Make your choice.
I would actually go so far as to side with BATTLER on this one and say that it is practically impossible to restore "PRIME" or a single reality to the past, especially to Rokkenjima. We would need the objective view of every possible event on Rokkenjima to actually do that or else it would forever stay in the cycle of being recreated continuously. We basically would need the Red Truth for that, and as he told Ange, humans have no access to that power.

Of course certain sentient beings are killed by the process of forming truth (be it the actual truth or just a convenient truth), but certain beings continue to exist. For example if culprit Battler were true, Black Battler could continue to exist as he is not solely dependent on the magical narrative like for example The 1000 Year Old Endless Witch Beatrice from EP1-5 is.
This is very well shown due to Kanon and Shannon. Let's assume we uncovered the truth of what actually happened in 1986, but the Kanon subplot had incidentally no relation to it whatsoever. Maybe this would lead to people just not questioning Kanon's existence in 1986 and thus he would continue to exist on Rokkenjima during that time from the perspective of the people in the future.

This actually leads me to an interesting idea about the Shannon and Kanon resurrection in EP3. Not only the original author has power over the existence of those sentient "beings of the fantastical realm", but everybody who contributes to the pool of "Rokkenjima stories and fabrications".
Basically the conviction of George and Jessica that the person they met was Shannon and Kanon respectively made them appear at that point because there was nothing disputing that point of view. Maybe, if we had questioned Beatrice about "that Shannon" or "that Kanon" she might have had to say:
"These are not the same Shannon and Kanon who died. That Shannon or Kanon can never be resurrected again."
(We actually have some hints of this in EP2 when Shannon says something along the lines, that she noticed too late how this Kanon was not actually Kanon.)

This is what I meant further above when I said that 幻想の住人 was closer in meaning to "Inhabitants of the Fantastical" than to "Illusion Dwellers", because they are less product of illusions but still dependent on believe and the creation of such a realm (which is fictional = fantastical).

The same thing is basically quintessential in historical studies. You have to be aware that everything you are dealing with is a reconstruction and get's more and more vague the less evidence you have. But even the evidence you have can be false, falsely read, falsely interpreted, anything.
The Queen Elizabeth I or Albert Einstein or even Adolf Hitler we talk about in history classes today is also to a great deal "fictional" in the way that they are recreated from evidence. Everything about them could change everyday, which basically would mean that the Elizabeth that existed in our 1576 would "die" and be replaced by a new (from over view more correct) Elizabeth.

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If you think he's not deserving of forgiveness, when he did everything he thought he could do, you...just might be kind of evil.
I'd agree on that one.
He might have been a pretty terrible father, an egoistical whiner, an adulterer, maybe even a murderer and rapist, but he seemed to hate himself for every one of those things. The only thing that apparently made him happy for a short while was his time with Bice.
Even in the time with his daughter, whom he fashioned to be a ressurection of Bice, he seemed to be subconsciously unhappy...getting angry whenever she called him father (it was a little visible in the EP3 scene, but it really becomes apparent with BATTLER and Chick-Beato), locking her up, etc.

I wouldn't want to make excuses for him, he probably was a pretty faulty person all put together, but because we never actually got to hear many views on how he ACTUALLY treated (or thought of) his grandchildren, Battler's depiction in EP8 might be true as well.
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Old 2012-07-04, 03:01   Link #29537
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And, and I can't stress this enough, HE TRIED TO REDEEM HIMSELF. He devoted the remains of his life to it.

But the only person who could absolve him of his actions is dead, and he didn't even have a hand in it. Even if he directly murdered her, he can't make up for it no matter how much he tries.

But...the same is true if you break a one of a kind vase, technically. The same is true if you're missing from your son's life for the first eight years of his life. No sin can TRULY be undone. It's impossible. You can only compensate for it.

Kinzo did his damnedest to compensate for it. If he could do more, he would have. Who the hell are any of us to deny him atonement purely because he can't do the impossible?

If we ignore the effort he did make, and judge him purely by the original sins he committed, then we are sending the message that the struggle to atone has no inherent value.

And I want no part of any system of ethics that doesn't acknowledge how beautiful such a struggle makes an otherwise broken man.
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Old 2012-07-04, 03:14   Link #29538
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And I want no part of any system of ethics that doesn't acknowledge how beautiful such a struggle makes an otherwise broken man.
Wonderfully said, couldn't agree more.

I remember how I actually teared up a little when I translated the line about Kinz˘'s fight with Rosa stemming from the fact that he threw a tantrum because he wanted to name Maria and had prepared "such a wonderful name" (whatever it was) for her.

Kinz˘ did try and he tried hard, so hard it drove him at least a little insane.
But imagine being in a house with 4 children from a possibly pretty loveless relationship, them growing older, reminding you every day how the time with the one person you loved slips further and further into obscurity. All the while you couldn't even talk about it, let alone openly mourn that loss.

It's actually also pretty sad to see how much alike he and Rosa were...and all she ever did was being afraid of him.
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Old 2012-07-04, 03:27   Link #29539
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All of that is part of the reason why I like to think of EP8 Kinzo as being canon. He does seem like he WANTED to love his grandkids, and they're not pecking vultures like his children.

And the older ones especially would've been Lion's playmates, and I can imagine that running through his mind whenever he looks at them.
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Old 2012-07-04, 05:28   Link #29540
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Well, I think it went too much into personal judgment. But to me, even if I understand how a person suffers throughout his life that might have influenced what he did, the act is still something that have to be judged seperately.

And it's very personal. So I don't hope you agree with me here, because you might not view those things the same way at I am. The implied fact that he made a child out of Beatrice II crossed the line for me, because maybe in my opinion, it's pretty much a sin that is unforgivable, in any circustance or reason. So I hope that he did not. There is a possiblity that he did not.

That kind of personal moral sense did put me in quite a strong difficulity in reading EP7. Because whatever the author says or shows me, I just cannot forgive Kinzo. I cannot appreciate the love he gave to Beatrice II. And the whole thing echoes EP6 make me feel even more uncomfortable looking at Chick-Beato (it was already quite uncomfortable to me at the point of reading it the first time) . So it gets a lot in my enjoyment to the story .
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