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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 20 28.99%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 25 36.23%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 24.64%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 4.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 5.80%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-07-03, 04:03   Link #61
Hyper
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Exactly. And instead of letting Hongou and everyone know it's boring, and maybe precipitate a confrontation when they find out nobody dies, she contrived that situation where everyone can back off gracefully - and they didn't even realize it.
It was made pretty clear though that herself thinking that it's boring is her concern. She does not try to avoid the class confrontation. What she did is trying to avoid telling Hougou outright that it's boring.

On this point, I might make Irisu too much of a bad person. Still, I believe what implied by Tomoe and to lesser extend Houtarou is that she did not do that for the benefit of Hougou or the class, but herself. She did not want to be the one rejecting it because that'll make her looks bad. If we thrust Eru's assertion, the class would understand and accepted Hougou's script just fine if she were to actually tell them that they screwed up. However, Irisu think that Hougou's script was so boring that it would make the project a failure. Therefore, she came up with a plan that would make Hougou retreated and she will get to choose how the story would be. Essentially a writing contest where Irisu is the only judge, as Houtarou said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeboygo View Post
And if the solution demonstrates that Houtaro has real genius as a mystery writer, why would he be angry about that, even if he had to be tricked into realizing this hidden talent? It should have been a source of gratitude instead.

I think what really pissed him off was that, for all his vaunted deductive abilities, Houtaro was the last person in the club to figure out that Irisu had played him for a sucker, an irony that could not have been lost him. All his friends suspected as much, but none of them had the heart to tell him outright.
He is pissed off more by the fact that we was toyed with. For the first time he feel like he was special, then he find out it was a lie. And he was wrong. It doesn't matter how fitting the theory is, if it's wrong, it's wrong. I'm sorry for a little technical example, but it's like Higgs model*. It solves a whole lot of problems and explains a bunch of experiments very nicely. But if we don't find it, then it's wrong. The rest doesn't matter.

Also, Mayaka will not pull any punch about it. If she suspect Irisu to that extend, she'll outright tell Houtarou about it. She might even tell him in front of Irisu. That's how her character is, I believe.

*Off topic: watch out for update results from LHC on July 4th!
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Old 2012-07-03, 04:27   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Kismet-chan View Post
Glad I'm not the only one who felt this way. The whole time I found myself saying aloud, "Is it REALLY that serious?"

I can understand that he's upset over being manipulated/used. I would be, too. But I wouldn't even be half that emotional about it. I found his reactions (as well as Chitose's during his private convo with Houtarou) a tad too dramatic to be realistic.
The reason you don't find it realistic is because you aren't putting yourself in Houtarou's shoes. You have to consider life from his perspective. He's someone who doesn't really have any real strong belief in himself, and believes himself to be quite average, and expected to go life living in an average manner, which is why he has his energy conservation ideals. Think about the main reason he lived the way he lived prior to meeting Chitanda.

Houtarou simply lived for the next day, without expectation, going about his life. And maybe you personally don't understand this kind of mindset, and that's understandable but it probably stems from some kind of disappointment in life. A simple example is when someone trains everyday in a sport they love, only to one day come across an athlete who completely crushes the other without effort. A genius talent, how does that person end up feeling? All that effort that person put into their life, into the sport they love, and they realize their own limitations. So then they go on with their life, understanding that there are boundaries only the selected few may cross, and so Houtarou probably lives life understanding that if he were to put hope into something, he's scared to be met with disappointment and failure, so he chooses to live without hope or expectation, so he never has to face that disappointment, which is why he talks as if the mysteries he solved were just luck. He honestly believes that, because he doesn't want to hope. Thus he lives in his grey world, because he was honestly probably just afraid.

Now I brought up that metaphor for a reason. Fast forward, someone tells Oreki that he has a talent that others don't have. You saw his reaction in the previous episode. He was surprised someone could say he had a talent. He even said, "Is it ok to believe in her?" which continues to exemplify his fear of having hope in himself, because he long ago threw that away. Houtarou chooses to believe, and what ends up happening? First Mayaka tells him if he's really right about it, so he begins doubting himself. Both Satoshi and Chitanda also give their doubts. Suddenly all this sudden hope he had in himself, and his "talent" are put into question. Houtarou gave into the hope that he was trying to avoid his whole life, and what happens, he gets burned instantly. And when he finally puts it together, he realizes that he was just used for the sake of the project. And he takes it to believe that a word like talent was used simply for the sake of using him. And that fear that he really believed he was talentless manifests itself. That kind of hope literally crushes a person when faced with the result that Oreki did. Someone who denies himself to such extremes, to be thought he had something, only to realize it was all a lie to get him to play his part. It's honestly not surprising that Houtarou takes it so harshly.

You can even look at the face Houtarou has back in episode 10, when he figures out his own ending, and tells it to Irisu, his face is filled with expression, of hope, happiness, and accomplishment. He finally thinks that maybe it's ok to believe in himself. The expressionless Houtarou actually looked happy, proud even. And as they say, the higher you are, the harder you fall. And he simply crashed back into the ground.

People who are surprised by how hard he takes it confuse me, because they've clearly never experienced something like this then. If you just look at it from Houtarou's perspective, you'll realize how realistic the emotions are. I don't find anything over the top, in fact I find it an extremely believable anime right now.

ps. I ran into that wall when it comes to intelligence, lol. I was always above average in tests, scores, and such without really studying. A lot came naturally. But I have some friends who I could never even touch when it comes to intelligence. People who I feel even if I studied my whole life, I would never be smarter than them, or accomplish anything even close to what they could in math or science. I realized that I think in my freshman year of highschool, it mighta been the end of middleschool, but yea when you come across something like that, it messes with the way you think, and approach anything. (And if anyone's wondering those friends went to MIT, CalTech, and Harvard, yes one for each, lol.. they are all insanely smart, and like me they slacked off, so I knew if they tried even a little bit, I wouldn't be able to match them.)
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Old 2012-07-03, 04:43   Link #63
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*snipped*
Great explanation. And I felt like I'm reading my own life on that last paragraph. Can I call you bro?

No bitter to my smarter friends and I'm not without hope though. I'm doing my best on what I like. I started to think that this maybe Hyouka author's intention after all.
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Old 2012-07-03, 09:50   Link #64
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great episode, the emotion was so real!
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Old 2012-07-03, 09:57   Link #65
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That ending had a nice touch of subtlety. When Eru said that she didn't like unhappy endings either, I felt like that was her way of cheering up Houtarou by implying, "I want everyone to be happy, including you, Houtarou."

And in Irisu's defense, I somewhat agree with her. Leaving Kaito alive and finding out he's perfectly fine later is a bit too anticlimatic for a mystery.
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Old 2012-07-03, 12:23   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
It was made pretty clear though that herself thinking that it's boring is her concern. She does not try to avoid the class confrontation. What she did is trying to avoid telling Hougou outright that it's boring.

On this point, I might make Irisu too much of a bad person. Still, I believe what implied by Tomoe and to lesser extend Houtarou is that she did not do that for the benefit of Hougou or the class, but herself. She did not want to be the one rejecting it because that'll make her looks bad. If we thrust Eru's assertion, the class would understand and accepted Hougou's script just fine if she were to actually tell them that they screwed up. However, Irisu think that Hougou's script was so boring that it would make the project a failure. Therefore, she came up with a plan that would make Hougou retreated and she will get to choose how the story would be. Essentially a writing contest where Irisu is the only judge, as Houtarou said.

He is pissed off more by the fact that we was toyed with. For the first time he feel like he was special, then he find out it was a lie. And he was wrong. It doesn't matter how fitting the theory is, if it's wrong, it's wrong. I'm sorry for a little technical example, but it's like Higgs model*. It solves a whole lot of problems and explains a bunch of experiments very nicely. But if we don't find it, then it's wrong. The rest doesn't matter.

Also, Mayaka will not pull any punch about it. If she suspect Irisu to that extend, she'll outright tell Houtarou about it. She might even tell him in front of Irisu. That's how her character is, I believe.

*Off topic: watch out for update results from LHC on July 4th!
In terms of Mayaka I'm not sure. She outright guessed that Irisu was the reason he was at school working on the mystery. While she couldn't guess at what Irisu did to lure him in, should have at least known she was the reason he was doing this. Since Satoshi was also there then he too should have known about Irisu's involvement. The only one that would have been in the dark about Irisu having fired Houtarou up somehow would be Chitanda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
That ending had a nice touch of subtlety. When Eru said that she didn't like unhappy endings either, I felt like that was her way of cheering up Houtarou by implying, "I want everyone to be happy, including you, Houtarou."

And in Irisu's defense, I somewhat agree with her. Leaving Kaito alive and finding out he's perfectly fine later is a bit too anticlimatic for a mystery.
Well it certainly would have been with how bad the actors were. I think they could have made it a pretty solid movie if the flashback or even the eventual reveal of the attacker was done well. Could have brought out some deep emotions going over why she attacked and why he tried to cover for her.

May be right with Chitanda. Though I do think that her thoughts lined up with Hongou and it explained why she wasn't into reading those kinds of books. Very likely a secondary motive to try and cheer up Houtarou who was clearly still shaken by these events.
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Old 2012-07-03, 12:38   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post

And in Irisu's defense, I somewhat agree with her. Leaving Kaito alive and finding out he's perfectly fine later is a bit too anticlimatic for a mystery.
Agreed. The one thing I didn't like about this episode is how it cast Irisu in a totally negative and unsympathetic light.

Irisu's motivations were perfectly sound. So was her desire to not needlessly piss people off or hurt their feelings. I don't think she was entirely in the right, of course, but I would have preferred a less
black-and-white portrayal of her than what was given. It lacked fairness and nuance, imo.


That being said, I could also get where Oreki was coming from on this. You feel good about yourself over successfully completing a project, as lots of people compliment you on it. Then your three best friends, one after another, all pick it apart and really critique it. That has to sting, and really crush one's self-esteem, at least for a short while. Keep in mind that what they're critiquing is central to Oreki's key talent - playing Detective. It would be comparable to a young protege pianist being told "It sounded nice, but it was not a good recital as you were way off on a few notes" by his three best friends.

Oreki feeling depressed, frustrated, and angry/irritable over it, makes sense to me. The good news is that it shows how much his character has developed. It shows how, deep down inside, he wants to be a guy that can feel proud of himself, and help other people. He doesn't really want to be an energy conserving loner ay more.

Well, after this incident, he may lapse a bit back into that energy conserving loner stage again, but I doubt he'll stay there.
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Old 2012-07-03, 13:39   Link #68
Anh_Minh
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Agreed. The one thing I didn't like about this episode is how it cast Irisu in a totally negative and unsympathetic light.

Irisu's motivations were perfectly sound. So was her desire to not needlessly piss people off or hurt their feelings. I don't think she was entirely in the right, of course, but I would have preferred a less
black-and-white portrayal of her than what was given. It lacked fairness and nuance, imo.


That being said, I could also get where Oreki was coming from on this. You feel good about yourself over successfully completing a project, as lots of people compliment you on it. Then your three best friends, one after another, all pick it apart and really critique it. That has to sting, and really crush one's self-esteem, at least for a short while. Keep in mind that what they're critiquing is central to Oreki's key talent - playing Detective. It would be comparable to a young protege pianist being told "It sounded nice, but it was not a good recital as you were way off on a few notes" by his three best friends.

Oreki feeling depressed, frustrated, and angry/irritable over it, makes sense to me. The good news is that it shows how much his character has developed. It shows how, deep down inside, he wants to be a guy that can feel proud of himself, and help other people. He doesn't really want to be an energy conserving loner ay more.

Well, after this incident, he may lapse a bit back into that energy conserving loner stage again, but I doubt he'll stay there.
It's normal for Houtarou to feel bad about the whole thing. To be angry. But as we're more impartial observers... I don't see her in that bad a light.

I think that's the problem with little white lies - when they're found out, it may turn out they're not so little or so white.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
It was made pretty clear though that herself thinking that it's boring is her concern.
Clear to whom? She never let on to Hongou. Houtarou didn't figure it out either, probably. She didn't mention it to her interlocutor on the other side of the world, even though she was seen through.

Quote:
She does not try to avoid the class confrontation. What she did is trying to avoid telling Hougou outright that it's boring.
Yes, and why? To avoid hurting her feelings, and also, possibly, to avoid having the class turn against Hongou. They're nice people, so it wouldn't have been that bad. But considering her personality, it would have been bad enough for Hongou.

Quote:
On this point, I might make Irisu too much of a bad person. Still, I believe what implied by Tomoe and to lesser extend Houtarou is that she did not do that for the benefit of Hougou or the class, but herself. She did not want to be the one rejecting it because that'll make her looks bad. If we thrust Eru's assertion, the class would understand and accepted Hougou's script just fine if she were to actually tell them that they screwed up. However, Irisu think that Hougou's script was so boring that it would make the project a failure. Therefore, she came up with a plan that would make Hougou retreated and she will get to choose how the story would be. Essentially a writing contest where Irisu is the only judge, as Houtarou said.
If they'd known from the start nobody would die, they'd maybe have accepted it or found another writer. Considering the project's advancement, and the fact that the whole scene with the body would have to be redone, and so on... Even if possible, it would have been unpleasant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeboygo View Post
The use of the word "wrong" may be throwing you off. If you change the term "wrong" to "not Hongou's" then you'll find that it doesn't take much of a deductive leap to figure out what just happened. If it's not Hongou's ending, then it can only be an Orecki original.

So what? Well, you can paraphrase what all three of his club mates were tactfully trying to tell him, each in their own way, as "do you realize that you wrote the whole ending of their movie and are getting zero credit for authorship?"

When you look at it that way, doesn't it suddenly seem obvious that he's been ripped off? And by who else?
The knowledge that Irisu knew Hongou's ending may be throwing you off. The other three had no reason to assume that - except maybe Chitanda, who did wonder why they didn't ask Eba. But she's too naive to have suspected foul play.

It was never presented as a guessing game where the solution was in a sealed envelope in Irisu's possession. It was, from the beginning, a question without a "right" answer - they were just to pick the best one, provided it was good enough, and call it right by default. Houtarou, after thinking it through, honestly drew a wrong conclusion. Why couldn't Irisu just as honestly conclude that he was right? Did she know about the rope? Is she a Sherlockian?

And even if she did spot the inconsistencies, why does she need to know in advance that there was no answer that'd be both good and right, and just went with "good enough" because she was pressed for time? And didn't point out Houtarou's mistake because, hell, why would she do that when he tried so hard for her sake?

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2012-07-03 at 15:06.
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Old 2012-07-03, 14:20   Link #69
OceanBlue
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Irisu's motivations were perfectly sound. So was her desire to not needlessly piss people off or hurt their feelings. I don't think she was entirely in the right, of course, but I would have preferred a less
black-and-white portrayal of her than what was given. It lacked fairness and nuance, imo.
It's seen from Oreki's point of view, so it's kinda hard to include separate POVs, and especially the POV of the "antagonist" of the arc. I think if we would have seen this from Hongou's POV, Irisu's POV, or from an objective third party, it would probably have been nicer to her, but with the POV we have, there isn't much you can do .

At least Irisu is humanized in this arc. She definitely seemed like an intelligent, though conspiring, person instead of an evil mastermind to me. I think that's as fair as you can do with the perspectives in this show.
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Old 2012-07-03, 14:29   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's normal for Houtarou to feel bad about the whole thing. To be angry. But as we're more impartial observers... I don't see her in that bad a light.
I don't either.

But the thing is - The way this episode is directed, the BGM you have playing during the scene where Houtarou confronts Irisu, the fact that Irisu never defends herself, and then that final online chat featuring Irisu - It all comes together to present Irisu in an entirely negative light. I personally find that disappointing. The narrative basically does all it can to present her as an unsympathetic antagonist. It's pretty heavy-handed in trying to get the viewer to dislike/hate her.

I just don't like that. I think it does a disservice to her character, and makes her out to be worse than what she is.

You yourself raise loads of great questions and points in Irisu's defense. It's a shame that the narrative itself basically ignored all of them.


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It's seen from Oreki's point of view, so it's kinda hard to include separate POVs, and especially the POV of the "antagonist" of the arc.
This anime does have the odd scene without Oreki in it. Those could have been used to show Irisu's side of things. Instead, they were used to make her look even worse.
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Old 2012-07-03, 15:43   Link #71
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I don't either.

But the thing is - The way this episode is directed, the BGM you have playing during the scene where Houtarou confronts Irisu, the fact that Irisu never defends herself, and then that final online chat featuring Irisu - It all comes together to present Irisu in an entirely negative light. I personally find that disappointing. The narrative basically does all it can to present her as an unsympathetic antagonist. It's pretty heavy-handed in trying to get the viewer to dislike/hate her.
Hm. Maybe I'm a bit insensitive to that sort of things. I pay more attention to the lines. The last chat especially - it showed she could be seen through, that she was vulnerable. And her line about not being a position to see the project fail - what did she mean?

And even with Houtarou, the fact that she didn't defend herself, but didn't confess guilt either. What was that? I don't think it was indifference. Was it a form of atonement? Or was she just stuck on how to make things better?
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Old 2012-07-03, 15:43   Link #72
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Clear to whom? She never let on to Hongou. Houtarou didn't figure it out either, probably. She didn't mention it to her interlocutor on the other side of the world, even though she was seen through.
To us, the viewer. We saw what Tomoe said and Irisu's reaction. She did not tell Tomoe, but it's pretty clear from her reaction that "it's boring" was her concern. She doesn't care much about protecting Hougou or trying not to piss people off. If not for that last part when she totally panic and defend herself by saying that she is responsible to make the project a success, I would totally agree with you and others who think Irisu is not that bad. That was my reaction too. I thought her method was nasty, but her intention was right.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, and why? To avoid hurting her feelings, and also, possibly, to avoid having the class turn against Hongou. They're nice people, so it wouldn't have been that bad. But considering her personality, it would have been bad enough for Hongou.


If they'd known from the start nobody would die, they'd maybe have accepted it or found another writer. Considering the project's advancement, and the fact that the whole scene with the body would have to be redone, and so on... Even if possible, it would have been unpleasant.
As seen above, I disagree. Her panic when Tomoe found out shows that she does not try to avoid hurting Hougou, or at least that was not the primary concern.

Someone else pointed this out. The thing is Irisu was missing the point. She think they have to produce a good movie, as seen when she defended herself against Tomoe. However, the purpose of this project was not producing a good movie, but the class having fun working on it. If she had realized that, she would've asked the class to write the rest of the (new) script together, or picked one of those three "detectives" idea.

She is a very responsible person. It's just that this time she got her priority wrong. She put "a good movie" above Hougou's, the classes', and Houtarou's feeling. That make her a complete antagonist this time. Of course, outside of this situation, she can be a good person. I personally want to see when she's the good guy(girl), but to me she's entirely in the wrong this time.
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Old 2012-07-03, 16:02   Link #73
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To us, the viewer. We saw what Tomoe said and Irisu's reaction. She did not tell Tomoe, but it's pretty clear from her reaction that "it's boring" was her concern.
It's why she took Hongou off the project yes. But she did it in such a roundabout way instead of just letting the class come to a consensus the script had to go because she didn't want to hurt or humiliate Hongou.

Quote:
She doesn't care much about protecting Hougou or trying not to piss people off.
Then what else does she care about? Well, I think there may be something untold about her motivations. But as I said earlier, if her only concern was that the script was boring, and she didn't care about Hongou and her classmates, changing the script could have been decided in a much more direct fashion.

Quote:
If not for that last part when she totally panic and defend herself by saying that she is responsible to make the project a success, I would totally agree with you and others who think Irisu is not that bad. That was my reaction too. I thought her method was nasty, but her intention was right.
She's clearly feeling guilty. As she said, she hurt Houtarou.

And the reason she started this whole mess - her dissatisfaction at the script - looks petty in the face of that. It doesn't change the fact she jumped through quite a few hoops to avoid just telling Hongou that what she'd written was bad.


Quote:
As seen above, I disagree. Her panic when Tomoe found out shows that she does not try to avoid hurting Hougou, or at least that was not the primary concern.

Someone else pointed this out. The thing is Irisu was missing the point. She think they have to produce a good movie, as seen when she defended herself against Tomoe. However, the purpose of this project was not producing a good movie, but the class having fun working on it. If she had realized that, she would've asked the class to write the rest of the (new) script together, or picked one of those three "detectives" idea.
None of them had an idea that could get the whole class enthused about. It would have been satisfactory for the author and maybe a few others, that's all. Even with Houtarou's idea, the prop guy was unhappy.

Quote:
She is a very responsible person. It's just that this time she got her priority wrong.
It looked like there was more than "responsibility" to me. She was afraid that something bad would happen to her if it failed.

Quote:
She put "a good movie" above Hougou's, the classes', and Houtarou's feeling.
Actually, most of their feelings were protected. Houtarou was only hurt because he figured it out, but that wasn't part of the plan.

If she'd let Hongou show her boring script, then feelings would absolutely have been hurt.

Quote:
That make her a complete antagonist this time. Of course, outside of this situation, she can be a good person. I personally want to see when she's the good guy(girl), but to me she's entirely in the wrong this time.
Wrong, maybe. Probably. But her motives may not be that bad.
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Old 2012-07-03, 16:27   Link #74
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Spoiler for Understanding Hongou:
Spoiler for Speculation for Understanding Irisu:
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Old 2012-07-03, 16:42   Link #75
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In terms of Mayaka I'm not sure. She outright guessed that Irisu was the reason he was at school working on the mystery. While she couldn't guess at what Irisu did to lure him in, should have at least known she was the reason he was doing this. Since Satoshi was also there then he too should have known about Irisu's involvement. The only one that would have been in the dark about Irisu having fired Houtarou up somehow would be Chitanda.
I agree that all of them know Irisu only want Houtarou. None of them show any surprise when they see Houtarou working on it alone. What I meant is had she know Irisu wasn't asking for help on solving the movie mystery but writing a good script for her, she would not wait any second telling him that.
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's why she took Hongou off the project yes. But she did it in such a roundabout way instead of just letting the class come to a consensus the script had to go because she didn't want to hurt or humiliate Hongou.

Then what else does she care about? Well, I think there may be something untold about her motivations. But as I said earlier, if her only concern was that the script was boring, and she didn't care about Hongou and her classmates, changing the script could have been decided in a much more direct fashion.
Instead, I believe that she just does not want to be a dictator, or she does not think she have enough power to do so. She also said that no one in class is capable of writing a good script. She told Houtarou outright about that. So not only she do not want Hougou's script, but anyone in the class as well.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She's clearly feeling guilty. As she said, she hurt Houtarou.

And the reason she started this whole mess - her dissatisfaction at the script - looks petty in the face of that. It doesn't change the fact she jumped through quite a few hoops to avoid just telling Hongou that what she'd written was bad.
I don't think she felt that guilty. She said that to Tomoe, and that's when Tomoe started mentioning that she shouldn't lie to her. I think it's a mixed of disappointment that Houtarou found out and now she is a bad person in his eyes. I do agree that she at least partially feeling guilty though.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
None of them had an idea that could get the whole class enthused about. It would have been satisfactory for the author and maybe a few others, that's all. Even with Houtarou's idea, the prop guy was unhappy.
The movie was boring, but I think the producing part already looks fun enough. All three of them seems to have a good time working on it. No need for a great script. What Houtarou's script did is make it a fairly fun movie.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It looked like there was more than "responsibility" to me. She was afraid that something bad would happen to her if it failed.
If I had to venture a guess, I think it has to do with her background, a daughter of a big hospital. I'd love to see this explain. That level of putting a good movie above other things is not appropriate in this situation though.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Actually, most of their feelings were protected. Houtarou was only hurt because he figured it out, but that wasn't part of the plan.

If she'd let Hongou show her boring script, then feelings would absolutely have been hurt.
I would say none of the protecting feeling was part of the plan, just a byproduct.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Wrong, maybe. Probably. But her motives may not be that bad.
Her motive is not bad at all. It's just inappropriate.

I think we're arguing about interpretation of her reaction at this point though. Maybe there is no correct answer.
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Old 2012-07-03, 19:13   Link #76
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People seem to be thinking that Irisu is the mastermind behind this entire project and forgetting that it was not her idea to use Houtarou like that, but his sister, Tomoe's. Remember the internet chat in episode 8?

Tomoe replied "I don't know if they'll help, but if you use them right, they might dance for you". Keep in mind that in the previous arc, it was also Tomoe who led Houtarou to join the Classics Club, then suggested him to make the anthology, then finally dropped the big hint about Eru's Uncle and the history behind "Hyouka".

It is true that Irisu used Houtarou as a means to her end, but she was no mastermind. It was Tomoe who directed her to him, and more than likely, Tomoe also told Iriso how to press Houtarou's buttons since it's clear that Tomoe knows Houtarou very well.


As for Hongou and the rest of the production team, Irisu hardly manipulated them at all. Whether Irisu rejected Hongou's script because she personally disliked it or because it was objectively a poorly written mystery, it does not change the fact that Hongou willingly withdrew herself from the production. Irisu also informed Hongou before she made contact with the Classics Club that the movie won't turn out the way Hongou originally intended. This is not indirect manipulation; Irisu directly took control of the production.
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Old 2012-07-03, 21:11   Link #77
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In this episode of Hyouka . . .
Houtauro gets played like a death metal drumkit. That's pretty much the whole episode right there. The whole mystery movie thing . . . a red herring. The real mystery of the arc is Xanatos Irisu's actions.

Apparently, she decides that Hongou's story is far too meta for a high school mystery film. That, and the production crew kept making stuff up as they went along, making Hongou's version of the story impossible to reconcile with the footage. So she butters up Houtarou with some motivational words and other forms of flattery, causing him to forget about solving the mystery that Chitanda and the others of the Classics Club first started with (ergo, what was the ending that Hongou wanted.) Instead, he winds up solving Irisu's problem of "how to end the movie in an exciting way" instead.

And his friends, more or less, hand him his ass for it. We see Mayaka actually trying to let Houtarou down easy. Satoshi's steely dissection of Houtarou's solution shows him to be the Shakespearean fool that he is. Chitanda shines a light on the elephant in the room (i.e. why didn't Irisu, or anyone else, ask . . . y'know, Hongou, or Hongou's BFF Eba about how the film should end?)

Later on, Houtarou realizes that, perhaps, Satoshi was trying to warn him about how he ends up wrapped around the little finger of some woman in his pronouncement that Houtaro was "Strength." He also has some realization about how he never tried to change his perspective. So he decides to pick a fight with a grizzly bear confront Irisu.

He points out that, from Hongou's perspective, she was averse to having anyone die, and deduces that he and the rest of the Scooby Doo gang were brought in as scriptwriters without ever getting wise to the fact, because Irisu was controlling how they saw things. He then calls her out on her words of encouragement, about how she seems to be an "the ends justify the means" sort of person . . . to which, Irisu, Ice Queen of Players essentially replies with "Yeah, and . . . your point being?"

In this, we see that Houtarou is, justifiably, furious. Furious with himself for getting it wrong the first time and letting down his friends, and furious at Irisu for playing him like a chump, a sucker, an easy mark. In the end, he's furious at himself for letting himself be played so skillfully . . . some badass master of logic and deduction he is, eh?

Later on, Irisu chats with Hongou:
Irisu: Sorry about totally redoing the end of the movie to be awesome and not in line with your creative vision.
Hongou: Eh, who cares about the movie? The point was for everybody to have fun making it! Hooray team-building!
Irisu: *facepalm*

And then she chats with Chuck Norris Houtarou's sister; who points out that it isn't nice to lie to someone who can kick your ass seven ways from Sunday; since it's obvious that Irisu was just bored with Hongou's deep, meta, mystery; and wanted a more exciting and to-the-point film. Which was the real reason she wanted Chuck Norris's Tomoei's help. To which, Irisu's reaction of followed by is simply priceless.

In the end, Houtarou and Chitanda muse about what Hongou really wanted. In the end, it was Yuki Nagato Kounsou, who did it through the window (Remember that open window in the empty room at the start of the arc? And you didn't think that was one of Chekov's guns did you?) And she didn't kill Kaitou. Kaitou locked himself in the room. Why did she do it? Why did Kaitou react the way he did? That was Hongou's real mystery.

Chuck Norris Tomoei Oreki can kick your ass 10/10 times drunk, with one leg tied behind her back.
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Old 2012-07-03, 21:57   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I agree that all of them know Irisu only want Houtarou. None of them show any surprise when they see Houtarou working on it alone. What I meant is had she know Irisu wasn't asking for help on solving the movie mystery but writing a good script for her, she would not wait any second telling him that.
Well then I completely agree there. She wouldn't hold back on something like that. Like with the teasing about him deciding to work becuase of Irisu, she wouldn't keep that information to herself. With Mayaka it is nice that there isn't much hidden.
Quote:
Instead, I believe that she just does not want to be a dictator, or she does not think she have enough power to do so. She also said that no one in class is capable of writing a good script. She told Houtarou outright about that. So not only she do not want Hougou's script, but anyone in the class as well.
Apparently she never watched the movie. No clever script was going to save that sad display of acting . Should have gone with the last girl's idea of just a mess of a story where almost everyone dies. At least the bad acting might actually work in that setting.
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Old 2012-07-04, 10:58   Link #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Agreed. The one thing I didn't like about this episode is how it cast Irisu in a totally negative and unsympathetic light.

Irisu's motivations were perfectly sound. So was her desire to not needlessly piss people off or hurt their feelings. I don't think she was entirely in the right, of course, but I would have preferred a less
black-and-white portrayal of her than what was given. It lacked fairness and nuance, imo.
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But the thing is - The way this episode is directed, the BGM you have playing during the scene where Houtarou confronts Irisu, the fact that Irisu never defends herself, and then that final online chat featuring Irisu - It all comes together to present Irisu in an entirely negative light. I personally find that disappointing. The narrative basically does all it can to present her as an unsympathetic antagonist. It's pretty heavy-handed in trying to get the viewer to dislike/hate her.

I just don't like that. I think it does a disservice to her character, and makes her out to be worse than what she is.

You yourself raise loads of great questions and points in Irisu's defense. It's a shame that the narrative itself basically ignored all of them.

This anime does have the odd scene without Oreki in it. Those could have been used to show Irisu's side of things. Instead, they were used to make her look even worse.
Unfortunately, I think I'm going to have to disagree with you almost entirely on these points you bring up. To begin with, I think you'll agree that it is not the narratives job to be fair in its portrayal of every single character. As others have noted, the story is framed through Oreki's point of view. We do not hear anyone's thoughts but his own. Similarly, we are generally limited to seeing only what he sees. As such, it is the narratives job to effectively portray Oreki's emotions and how he feels about himself and the characters and events happening around him. And as you pointed, this episode does a pretty good job doing just that. The episode is brooding, Oreki spends half the episode with a shadow covering his eyes, and directorial touches such as the "camera" shaking during his chat with Irisu and Satoshi's voice being muffled when he calls out to him all do an excellent job of letting us know just how Oreki is feeling.

Of course, all that being said, we as viewers have the luxury of stepping out of the characters shoes and looking at things in a more objective light. After all, Oreki is far from a reliable narrator. But even then, I find it very hard to agree with your claim that the narrative is out to get Irisu. In fact, I'd argue that the narrative was very fair in its treatment of her. Any negative characteristics that she may have shown in the episode are entirely on the shoulders of Irisu herself.

Consider this. As someone else pointed out, Irisu is a very "the ends justify the means" type of person. She is willing to do almost whatever it takes (in this case manipulating pretty much everyone around her) to get the job done. She admitted as much when she said "I was not in a position to let the project fail" after being called out by (presumably) Oreki's sister. Of course, when the "ends" are a success, people usually tend to forget all about the "means". And this is exactly what happens. As was shown in episode 10, everyone loved the movie. In fact, they were going to have a party to celebrate its success. Now, don't you think that if the narrative were really attempting to cast Irisu in a negative light, then it would have made the movie a failure instead, in spite of Irisu's best efforts? It would have been a nice "Hahaha that's what you get for being a manipulative ****" kind of statement. But that isn't what happened. As it turns out, at the end of the day, Irisu wasn't affected negatively at all by what transpired with Oreki. Instead it was Oreki who bore the brunt of the effects of her actions, what with his completely shot self-esteem and all. This narrative was not about pointing out whether "the ends justify the means" attitude is wrong or not. It was about showing what happens when one of those "means" finds out that he's been used and how he feels about it. And as the episode showed, the answer in this particular case was "not happy at all".

Furthermore, you say that her portrayal was very "black-and-white". Once again, I must respectfully disagree. Notice that during their final confrontation, Oreki never once accuses her of wrong-doing. He does not blame her for the fact that he feels like crap. He says nothing like "You did something horrible and should feel bad." He simply asks her to admit whether she was lying or not when they first met in the cafe. Oreki was not aggressively pressing her to admit she was wrong. And how does she respond? With some stone-cold indifference. Now, you can argue that that puts Irisu in a negative light, but you cannot blame it on the narrative. That was all on her character. Irisu had all the time in the world to do something like put on a sad face and express remorse or something, but instead she decided to show her true colors and lay her cards on the table. And more so, Oreki practically thanks her for her honesty afterwards when he says "That makes me feel better."

Now for the directing. You say it works to present Irisu in a negative manner, but does it really? As I'm sure you've noticed, Hyouka has shown a tendency to play with light quite a bit. Take a look at these images.

Spoiler for Image:

Here we see Irisu helping Hongou out of the darkness and into the light. In the third image we see Irisu with a shining light above her head. The way she's presented you'd think that she was some kind of angel coming in to save the day. And finally, this scene.

Spoiler for Image:

As you can see, we have Oreki cast completely in shadow while Irisu is bathed in sunlight. What is the directing trying to imply by having Irisu practically shining while Oreki is covered in darkness? Is it trying to say that she's perfectly justified in her actions? Or perhaps that it's Oreki's fault for even questioning her motives in the first place? So who exactly is in the wrong here? In any case, it is hardly black and white.

And finally, that chatroom scene. While even I'll admit that it was a pretty damning scene, I'll once again say that any negative impressions of Irisu were brought about primarily by her own character faults. Notice how till the end she continues to play both Hongou and Oreki's sister. Not only that but she lets her cheekiness get the better of her. Luckily, Hongou is clueless and Irisu is able to brush it off with a simple "Nevermind". But unfortunately for Irisu, Oreki's sis isn't so easy to fool. Irisu left open a hole ("There wouldn't be any point in bluffing...) and Oreki's sis just plows right through it. But notice how not only does the narrative allow Irisu to attempt to justify herself, it also leaves things quite ambiguous and allows viewers to decide whether or not her justification holds any weight. Oreki's sis does not reprimand her further or call her defense BS. Instead she simply logs out. Once again, I would hardly call that heavy handed.

To end on a lighter note, I'll go ahead and say that I personally actually really like Irisu. I feel like the title of "Empress" fits her perfectly. I find her personality strong and refreshing. And of course, just like the world needs sensitive and empathetic people such as Hongou, it also needs those who can just get stuff done like Irisu. It also helps that she's extremely beautiful, haha.

Last edited by NCP; 2012-07-04 at 11:44.
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Old 2012-07-04, 11:26   Link #80
Flower
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Well, after watching ep 11 all I have to say regarding Irisu is "I told you so." But in the same light I think Oreki's older sister is equally manipulative, though in a different way and degree tempered by knowing what things are more important because she has kept her eyes open as the years have rolled by.

It is one thing to be "heartless" and put achieving goals and fulfilling responsibilities above all else - truly an "ends justify the means" p.o.v.; it is another thing to be inspired to do this because one feels moved to help someone in trouble (as Irisu did) and then manipulate and wound others. That is - if you are close to her she will do you a favor and hurt others around her to do you the favor. I could almost audibly hear say "It's just business." like the mafiosos portrayed in the Godfather movies.

In other words, ruthlessness by itself is one thing. Ruthlessness when mixed with good intentions is much more dangerous. And Irisu is the latter in my opinion. I can't tell you how much I wanted Oreki to slap her when he found out what she had done, or at least for Chitanda to confront her morally and call her on her actions.

All that being said, I have to give the show yet another plume in it's crown. The portrayal of the interaction between Oreki and Irisu was extremely real and convincing, and it really got me (and others, it seems) involved and riled up - moreso than many a series in a very long time. That's a mark of a well done piece of work.
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