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Old 2012-07-04, 06:07   Link #29541
Uberzaki
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
This is some seperate issue but I don't quite get the "for world peace" thing in Amakusa and Okonogi.
Is that because they're afraid that the truth about the Italian submarines is annouced? Honestly I don't think she could find the gold or find any trace for the submarine story, which could be true or not.
In the same vein, I don't get why Amasuka has to kill Ange, too. The only way Ange is not killed is for her to abandon the fortune. It is quite irony then that the guy who kept speaking about LOVE ends up killing her for money, so I never took that theory serious.

At the end of EP6, I thought there would be some conspiracy behind...
I personally doubt that Amakusa actually murdered Ange, for one thing, they seemed pretty close.

For a second thing, that scene where he talked to Okonogi and Okonogi accused him of going soft on her (I doubt they are in love though)? I believe its presence is to show that he may end up not killing her.

And finally, the scene where he snipes all of Kasumi's men was an opportunity for those men to kill her, he could have sniped them after they shot her. But he didn't. For all we know, Ange might have merely gone "missing" afterwards.
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Old 2012-07-04, 07:19   Link #29542
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
All of that is part of the reason why I like to think of EP8 Kinzo as being canon. He does seem like he WANTED to love his grandkids, and they're not pecking vultures like his children.

And the older ones especially would've been Lion's playmates, and I can imagine that running through his mind whenever he looks at them.
Back in ep 1 Kinzo's reason for considering Battler unworthy of succession is that "he is a fool who left behind the name of the Ushiromiya" or something like that.
Considering Kinzo probably died before Battler's coming back being in the picture it sure make sense, but the point is that if this is all he dislikes about Battler he probably did love him.
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Old 2012-07-04, 07:21   Link #29543
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Okonogi's plan was indeed for Amakusa to wait until they killed Ange and then snipe them.
The fact that they start dying before Ange is killed strongly suggests that Amakusa finally decided to save Ange.

It is quite probable that he's been looking at them the whole time and he waited because originally he actually wanted to stick with the plan. You can imagine what kind of thoughts went through his mind as he saw Kasumi and her men bully Ange.
I guess in the end he realized he couldn't stand that anymore and decided to kill them.

There is still the fact that what we can deduce from EP4 suggests that Kasumi still managed to shoot Ange and that's why she died. But it's unlikely that Amakusa's plan really involved killing everyone and then wait for Kasumi to kill Ange once she was alone. This would have been a pretty stupid plan as logic dictates that if someone knows he's been targeted by a sniper he'd think about his life first. It was a lot more rational to attack after Ange died if he really wanted them to kill her.
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Old 2012-07-04, 08:57   Link #29544
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is still the fact that what we can deduce from EP4 suggests that Kasumi still managed to shoot Ange and that's why she died. But it's unlikely that Amakusa's plan really involved killing everyone and then wait for Kasumi to kill Ange once she was alone. This would have been a pretty stupid plan as logic dictates that if someone knows he's been targeted by a sniper he'd think about his life first. It was a lot more rational to attack after Ange died if he really wanted them to kill her.
Technically if we look at Ange's fate the same way we are presented to Battler's and Shkannon's, then Ushiromiya Ange died in 1998 is possible.

No matter what happens, if she get's lost at sea or is supposedly to be killed on Rokkenjima or abandons all her rights to Okonogi in exchange for a new identity. In 20XX when the epilogue takes place there is no mention of her being recognized as Ange. She is a famous author who writes tales featuring a main character that to readers probably looks just like a toy from the 80's. Even the coverage of her illness seems to draw no connection to the Ushiromiya name.

So technically even the story how she handed over all her money and rights at the corporation over the Okonogi could have been fiction. He gets it either way and Ushiromiya Ange is "discarded" either way.
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Old 2012-07-04, 09:26   Link #29545
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I wasn't referring to the end scroll but rather to the fact that unlike with the goons nowhere it is said that Kasumi's bullet was deflected. This led to the speculation that Ange was killed then.

As usual with Umineko you can't be sure about a damn thing, since even when something it's outright stated you can still think it's a lie or that the words must be interpreted with an uncommon definition. But a possible hint that Ange was killed by Kasumi there in that scene exists, all I said is that this is "suggested".
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Old 2012-07-04, 10:17   Link #29546
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So, why is it that Ange is referred to as "Ange-Beatrice" and "The Witch of Resurrection"? It's something I've kind of wondered about for a long time and I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts on it.
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Old 2012-07-04, 10:27   Link #29547
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She's ANGE-Beatrice because she inherited the name from EVA-Beatrice. In EP8 it was implied that the handing down of the name Beatrice represented someone gaining control over the contents of the cat box (Ange presumably found Eva's diary and this gave her the choice of whether to open the box or let it remain closed).

She's 'The Witch of Resurrection' because her goal was to revive her family, and she also 'revived' Sakutaro for Maria. In EP8 she was said to be the Witch of Resurrection because she revived her hope of her family coming back despite the apparent certain evidence of their death (presumably obtained from the diary). You could also say that Yukari 'revived' Sakutaro with her fantasy series which made him a part of many people's worlds.
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Old 2012-07-04, 14:33   Link #29548
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I think becoming Beatrice sorta means becoming the main character, more or less.

Alternatively you could say that each Beatrice represents a different story. They are linked but at the same time not. That's actually my understanding of what most people call prime.

In Ange's world, Eva's world and Beatrice's worlds are also true. They are built atop of it.
In Eva's world, Beatrice's world is also true. It is built atop of it. However Ange's world isn't necessarily true of it.
In Beatrice's world, neither Ange nor Eva's world are necessarily true to it (after all in many arcs even after 3 Eva still dies and thus the future of Ange with her would also never occur).

Beatrice is more free then Eva or Ange in the sense that anything could really happen in her world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As usual with Umineko you can't be sure about a damn thing, since even when something it's outright stated you can still think it's a lie or that the words must be interpreted with an uncommon definition. But a possible hint that Ange was killed by Kasumi there in that scene exists, all I said is that this is "suggested".
The magic scenes strongly suggests that arc 4 is a fiction as much as the gameboard. Doesn't have to have any relation with prime.

Even going with what we learn later, it seems the closest thing to the truth we've got is that Ange vanished after her suicide contemplation atop of a building. Hell she might never have travelled with Amakusa to begin with. We basically only ever heard of scenes of Ange that the "public" would never ever learn about. Isn't that weird? Sure she went to that private school, but no one will ever know what happened there. No one will ever know Eva's dying words to her. No one will ever know about the people she questioned supposedly in arc 4. No one would ever know she went to Rokkenjima, to that secret bank, travel with Amakusa, murdered people/was murdered, etc.
She is a sort of "celebrity" yet the only things we ever learn about her in Umineko are things that would be unverifiable for anyone living in prime.

For all we know she had a lot of fun at school and Eva truly believed she would be a worthy successor to the family once she died, for instance. Kasumi might even love her niece.
How would you know any of that, even if you lived in Prime?
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Old 2012-07-04, 15:07   Link #29549
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
The magic scenes strongly suggests that arc 4 is a fiction as much as the gameboard. Doesn't have to have any relation with prime.
You mean the 1998 scenes from EP4? In which way and which magic scenes strongly suggest that it was fiction?
Since in EP8 we have two different outcomes of a choice you can make, what if the one in EP4 is yet another "what if" scenario?
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Old 2012-07-04, 15:28   Link #29550
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To be a Beatrice means to gain power from the denial of the Truth and the spinning of illusions. Even Ange is responsible for this, because her hopes caused her to deny the grim reality of the tragedy and hope beyond reasons that her family would all just roll up in a limo one day.
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Old 2012-07-04, 16:17   Link #29551
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It's interesting to get these different perspectives. I've been inclined to think that being a witch/sorcerer means that you had power to shape "the truth" and that the title of Beatrice in particular means that you had the power to shape "the truth" of Rokkenjima, 1986 in particular. "Resurrection" definitely refers to Sakutarou (at least), and I agree that it points towards the Yukari ending. What's interesting is that the concept of resurrecting Sakutarou was introduced as early as EP4.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
For all we know she had a lot of fun at school and Eva truly believed she would be a worthy successor to the family once she died, for instance. Kasumi might even love her niece.
Speaking of Kasumi, she should also have had to disappear from Prime around the same time as Ange in order for the 1998 EP narrative to fit.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You mean the 1998 scenes from EP4? In which way and which magic scenes strongly suggest that it was fiction?
Since in EP8 we have two different outcomes of a choice you can make, what if the one in EP4 is yet another "what if" scenario?
What's the difference between the story being a "what-if scenario" and being fiction?
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Old 2012-07-04, 17:22   Link #29552
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What's the difference between the story being a "what-if scenario" and being fiction?
If it's a "what-if scenario", it's something that would have really happened if the "if" was true.

If it's fiction, it's something that someone imagines could have happened or could happen at best, and something that has absolutely no relation to reality at worst.
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Old 2012-07-04, 17:38   Link #29553
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But all what-if scenarios are fiction, because by virtue of not having happened, they do not exist unless someone tells the what-if scenario.
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Old 2012-07-04, 18:21   Link #29554
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
For all we know she had a lot of fun at school and Eva truly believed she would be a worthy successor to the family once she died, for instance. Kasumi might even love her niece.
How would you know any of that, even if you lived in Prime?
Well, I look at Ange's characterization as the same as everyone other humans. Sure, perhaps they COULD have been largely different sort of people in actuality, but I make the (admittedly somewhat baseless) assumption that Ryukishi portrayed the humans as they actually were, in their lives, for the MOST part.

Especially since a large part of Ange's EP4 narrative was Ryukishi basically providing information we would never get to see if we stayed focused on Rokkenjima, but was, in his eyes, relevant enough to still include for us.

At the very least, it'd be fairly easy to ask whether or not Ange was happy at school 'cause there were lots of people to just ask.

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Speaking of Kasumi, she should also have had to disappear from Prime around the same time as Ange in order for the 1998 EP narrative to fit.
OH MAN, I never thought of that.
Yet another plot thread tossed to the winds.
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Old 2012-07-04, 18:28   Link #29555
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Does it really matter what happened to Kasumi in the real world? No one treated the Gameboards any less legitimately when they killed off Eva in 1986. Why should she be any different?


I do like to think, however, that Ange did go to Rokkenjima, and did have her epiphany that awakened her love for Eva and her budding nature as a potential Bodhisattva. Whether by the Meta-World/Prime-World Continuity Shenanigans I posited, or whatever else.
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Old 2012-07-04, 19:45   Link #29556
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Speaking of Kasumi, she should also have had to disappear from Prime around the same time as Ange in order for the 1998 EP narrative to fit.
Did Kasumi ever personally see Ange before she got to Rokkenjima? In the Yukari ending, maybe Amakusa just led her on a wild goose chase while pretending to be with Ange and then wiped out her entire group once they'd been lured to the island.
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Old 2012-07-04, 20:21   Link #29557
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But all what-if scenarios are fiction, because by virtue of not having happened, they do not exist unless someone tells the what-if scenario.
Not really. A fiction is not a fiction in its own universe. Let's take your standard eroge. You can say it's fiction, but you can only say that in this world. Inside the universe the novel describes what happens is reality not fiction. Now in a standard eroge there are many "routes" you can follow depending on the action you make. You can consider these routes the same of many "what-if" scenarios. While there is often what people call a "true route", it is not mandatory and normally it is implicit that every route is as much "real" as the others.

Conversely if inside this eroge one of the characters writes a story and this story gets somehow briefly narrated, that story is fiction even inside the universe described in the novel and it is by no means to be considered the same as an alternate route.
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Old 2012-07-04, 20:30   Link #29558
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@ Aura, Wanderer
Thanks for clarifying things for me.


@ Jan
Magic scenes happening outside of fiction makes no sense whatsoever. Even if this is a sort of figurative auto-biography, it remains a fiction.

You know I've been thinking more about what I said and I might be realizing something:

Wether it is in Ange's world or in the Rokkenjima of 1998, every time we see anything, it is part of a catbox. The event itself is often provable but not it's content, they're catboxes.

The only event I can think of that wasn't catbox is when Ikuko "revealed" Eva's diary.
That much probably had enough press to not be a catbox, however the content of Eva's diary (or rather, wether or not it is Eva's diary at all) were never revealed.

Still this seems to be probably one of the basic rule of Umineko.
It sounds as if Umineko sorta does begin as a sort of "Prime" where there are "holes" where no one can ever know the truth and "writer(s)" is writing a story in these holes and then remove the Prime parts. I guess it's like "mystery is to prime what fantasy is to mystery".


Edit : I'd also like to mention that even if any of us ended up in "prime", we potentially could never actually verify the existence of Rokkenjima. It's not on any maps. No ships ever goes there. We know the general area but it's likely we could never find the given island. It's landmaks are either destroyed or hidden to the point that sibblings who searched them all their lives couldn't find it. So you probably would fail at it too.

This could be the result of a sort of overlook of Ryuukishi, but that is sorta stranger then anything else. It's a demon's proof of course, you couldn't prove that "Rokkenjima doesn't exist" but it remains sorta big that you can't even prove that the setting for the entire story ever existed even if you were in that world.
You could attain reasonable proof, such as much press release and stuff, but to put it in Umineko's term, I'm not talking about white, blue or gold, but rather red proof.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-07-04 at 20:40.
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Old 2012-07-04, 20:47   Link #29559
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Speaking of Kasumi, she should also have had to disappear from Prime around the same time as Ange in order for the 1998 EP narrative to fit
Maybe not. I'll sorta go too far but this seems to be Ryuukishi's thing with the Battler breaking red death thing...

The scene we saw in arc 4 was actually a figurative event. What really happened is that Ange understood Kasumi and managed to bring her to her senses. The "Kasumi" that we are presented in arc 4, which is mostly an equivalent of Rosa's "dark witch", died as a result of that. Afterward Ange vanished because she changed her name to be a Sumadera and continued to live with Kasumi as a happy family - seperating herself from her past by giving up on her family name, much like her brother did before her.

Edit: Uh sorry about double post.
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Old 2012-07-04, 20:47   Link #29560
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Does it really matter what happened to Kasumi in the real world? No one treated the Gameboards any less legitimately when they killed off Eva in 1986. Why should she be any different?
Mm? The introduction of "a future where Eva is alive" changed how almost everybody viewed the gameboards. And while EP4's 1986 may be some kind of fiction / what-if-scenario, I wouldn't call it a gameboard. I guess it isn't that important in the grand scheme of things ... but some kind of statement on her life/death status would put EP4's misadventures on a much firmer ground, as far as understanding it. Also, presumably the Sumadera's had been planning to abduct Ange as soon as Eva fell ill.

I dunno, it just would've been some cool enlightening information, like if Natsuhi's family was at all grieved with her dead-ness or something.


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I do like to think, however, that Ange did go to Rokkenjima, and did have her epiphany that awakened her love for Eva and her budding nature as a potential Bodhisattva. Whether by the Meta-World/Prime-World Continuity Shenanigans I posited, or whatever else.
Agreed. It rings a bit better than her deciding on suicide by building jump, then taking a good long look down and goin' "Well fuck that. Gonna go back in there and be happy now."

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
The only event I can think of that wasn't catbox is when Ikuko "revealed" Eva's diary.
That much probably had enough press to not be a catbox, however the content of Eva's diary (or rather, wether or not it is Eva's diary at all) were never revealed.
How are you defining a catbox, here?
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