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Old 2012-07-04, 20:51   Link #29561
AuraTwilight
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Not really. A fiction is not a fiction in its own universe. Let's take your standard eroge. You can say it's fiction, but you can only say that in this world. Inside the universe the novel describes what happens is reality not fiction. Now in a standard eroge there are many "routes" you can follow depending on the action you make. You can consider these routes the same of many "what-if" scenarios. While there is often what people call a "true route", it is not mandatory and normally it is implicit that every route is as much "real" as the others.

Conversely if inside this eroge one of the characters writes a story and this story gets somehow briefly narrated, that story is fiction even inside the universe described in the novel and it is by no means to be considered the same as an alternate route.
You're right. The thing is, Umineko doesn't take this approach. The way it's narrative structure was set up, either one thing is true, or EVERYTHING is true. There is nothing to indicate that Ange's 1998 can branch into alternate continuities while the Gameboards are still just "fictions".

Quote:
I'd also like to mention that even if any of us ended up in "prime", we potentially could never actually verify the existence of Rokkenjima. It's not on any maps. No ships ever goes there. We know the general area but it's likely we could never find the given island.
Uh...yes it is, and yes they do. Ange has a map of Rokkenjima and Kawabata went there several times. Boats STOPPED going there, but they used to go there literally every day to take Jessica to and from school. If we ended up in "Prime" we could find it verily easily. It only seems to be a 40 minute boatride from Nijima, so that gives us a pretty small area to look in.
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Old 2012-07-04, 20:54   Link #29562
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
How are you defining a catbox, here?
Hmm the typical Umineko catbox.
Like 1986 Ushiromiya family conference.
We cannot know it's content and cannot know the exact details of the results.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Uh...yes it is, and yes they do. Ange has a map of Rokkenjima and Kawabata went there several times. Boats STOPPED going there, but they used to go there literally every day to take Jessica to and from school. If we ended up in "Prime" we could find it verily easily. It only seems to be a 40 minute boatride from Nijima, so that gives us a pretty small area to look in.
Well if could time travel back into pre-Rokkenjima disaster prime yeah.
But they said as early as arc 1 that Rokkenjima is not on any maps and that there isn't any maps of it. I didn't remember arc 4 contradicted that (I still don't, where exactly does Ange says she has a map to/of Rokkenjima), but now I'm not sure which I should trust.
I really doubt Kawabata would give any of us a ride to Rokkenjima.
The point is even if you did land on Rokkenjima you might not be able to verify that it is actually Rokkenjima.
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Old 2012-07-04, 21:23   Link #29563
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If I remember, there's a line about it in EP4. The anime also has Ange pull out a map.


I'm just gonna guess, by the way, that you can guess it's Rokkenjima by the big fuck-off crater and the government sectioning off telling trespassers to go home.
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Old 2012-07-04, 22:38   Link #29564
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're right. The thing is, Umineko doesn't take this approach. The way it's narrative structure was set up, either one thing is true, or EVERYTHING is true. There is nothing to indicate that Ange's 1998 can branch into alternate continuities while the Gameboards are still just "fictions".
Well I'm not so sure about that, in the beginning I expected Umineko to be consistent and only use one way or another, but after EP8 I wouldn't bet my money on it.

The main problem I see here is that the fictions of the gameboards are justified. Not only they represent actual fictional stories that were found in prime, but there is a meaning behind them, a reason for them to have been written.

What would be the reason and the justification behind what we've been shown regarding Ange in 1998, if it wasn't real?


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Magic scenes happening outside of fiction makes no sense whatsoever. Even if this is a sort of figurative auto-biography, it remains a fiction.
You haven't seen "fight club"? Or "dancer in the dark"? Or... "higurashi"? Just because you see things through the eyes of a characters that mixes illusions with reality it doesn't mean that it's all fake or that it's all fiction. You don't need a fictional interpretation at all. And in fact practically nobody did before EP6 made it blatantly obvious.
It isn't true that it doesn't make sense, it does in some cases.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Edit : I'd also like to mention that even if any of us ended up in "prime", we potentially could never actually verify the existence of Rokkenjima. It's not on any maps. No ships ever goes there. We know the general area but it's likely we could never find the given island. It's landmaks are either destroyed or hidden to the point that sibblings who searched them all their lives couldn't find it. So you probably would fail at it too.
If you mean that no one could possibly verify its existence it's not true. We know that Erika went near it with a pleasure boat. You just need one yourself, I'm sure the coordinates of this island were leaked and at any rate it was said it was about 30 mins from Niijima. If one really wanted, he could find it.

However if you mean that the common person couldn't verify its existence, well... the mere fact that the authorities and official channels claim it exists isn't what people would normally consider proof enough of something existing?

I could say the same for any crime reported by newspapers. What proof do you have that those crimes happened except for what newspapers tell you? Of course you could check if you wanted... but you don't.


About the map issue: there are maps of Rokkenjima, but Rokkenjima can't be found in maps. I don't think the maps of Rokkenjima are sold to the public... except maybe they were after the incident, you know... but before that, there was absolutely no market for those.
This issue however would become moot as soon as Google earth was released in the prime universe of Umineko.
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Old 2012-07-04, 22:43   Link #29565
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If I remember, there's a line about it in EP4. The anime also has Ange pull out a map.


I'm just gonna guess, by the way, that you can guess it's Rokkenjima by the big fuck-off crater and the government sectioning off telling trespassers to go home.
You might be right, I'm not going to ever watch the anime so I wouldn't know.


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You haven't seen "fight club"? Or "dancer in the dark"? Or... "higurashi"? Just because you see things through the eyes of a characters that mixes illusions with reality it doesn't mean that it's all fake or that it's all fiction.
It isn't true that it doesn't make sense, it does in some cases.
Wait are you suggesting that every magic scene in Umineko are the same as the Hinamizawa disease? I thought these theories were flushed pretty much straighfowardly by 07/LD in arc 5.




Quote:
If you mean that no one could possibly verify its existence it's not true. We know that Erika went near it with a pleasure boat. You just need one yourself, I'm sure the coordinates of this island were leaked and at any rate it was said it was about 30 mins from Niijima. If one really wanted, he could find it.

However if you mean that the common person couldn't verify its existence, well... the mere fact that the authorities and official channels claim it exists isn't what people would normally consider proof enough of something existing?

I could say the same for any crime reported by newspapers. What proof do you have that those crimes happened except for what newspapers tell you? Of course you could check if you wanted... but you don't.


About the map issue: there are maps of Rokkenjima, but Rokkenjima can't be found in maps.
This issue however would become moot as soon as Google earth was released in the prime universe of Umineko.
Convenient how you are sure they are leaked. I'm sure they weren't? Well I'm not but I "could be" as much as you are sure of the opposite.
I agree that reasonable proof of it existing is there and I mentioned so earlier. If you'd be living in Prime, it'd be folly to doubt it's existence. I then mentioned I'm talking about red truth.
Tho I disagree about the press' factuality. I've been reading six newspapper daily lately and compared their "factual info" on various topics. It's incredible how much discrepency can occur. I'm not simply talking about the pov the journalist is giving to his article, I'm talking about statistics and things that should normally be facts that lies outside of the realm of interpretation.
Not to fall into witch-hunter like conspiracy theories, but journalists also tend not to verify their "facts" very much.

But I disagree about how easy of access it is : if it was it would've been full of witch hunters all the time.
You're fighting me using arguments that normally would be a given and make sense, but those same kind of arguments denied Shkanon among things - things that aren't actually part of the story but that we tend to assume. Like for one how can you know that Google Earth was released on prime universe of Umineko?

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-07-04 at 23:01.
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Old 2012-07-04, 23:18   Link #29566
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What would be the reason and the justification behind what we've been shown regarding Ange in 1998, if it wasn't real?
Witch Hunters notice Ange Ushiromiya went missing in 1998. FANFICTION TIME <3
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Old 2012-07-05, 00:36   Link #29567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Witch Hunters notice Ange Ushiromiya went missing in 1998. FANFICTION TIME <3
Pretty much that, I would agree.

Though if there's one thing that should be considered when talking about Umineko's universe, it's that even fictions rely on their credibility, probability and possibility or else they can simply be denied.
Remember how Beatrice had to say only one sentence and Eva-Beatrice practically vanished into thin air? I think what that was meant to show us was not that everything in the fantasy-realm is non-existent, but just like AT and me have been saying, that they exist in a dual-system where they depend on each other.

I hope I don't go too theoretical again, but you could actually say it's a triple structure. Reality in which people live highly depends on the interaction between what they are told and what they can observe. That is the Real and the Symbolic, or in Umineko's case "the real world of Prime proposed by us" and "the fictions through which we learn about this world". Through those we create the Imaginary space, that is our proposed truth of Umineko, and we communicate it by using the Symbolic layer from the story.

What I mean by that is, that it doesn't matter if Ange 1998 on Rokkenjima happend or if she simply gave up her fortune while standing on the rooftop, because it doesn't destroy the reality at which we end up. this basically tells us, that both have equal rights to be true and concerning the story they can be considered to be both true...not at the same time, but as long as we arrive at the same "Yukari" it has both equal rights to be considered the truth.

And that is what EP8 keeps on telling us, doesn't it?
Isn't it better to accept the best possible event of what happened in the past over the worst? I'm not saying that I agree on all levels of what the implications of such a worldview would be. But the basic idea of "we shouldn't always think the worst" is not that bad.
It's the same as with the Kinz˘ catbox. You can condemn him for the sins he's done or you can use the implications made and create a Kinz˘ who was conflicting but loving.

-----
Oh...and concerning Google Earth: I'd assume they wouldn't simply let you take a stroll around the island via Google Earth. I haven't checked so much private property on Google Earth, but I'd assume they would blur pretty much everything by the reason of privacy.
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Old 2012-07-05, 01:03   Link #29568
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If it's a "what-if scenario", it's something that would have really happened if the "if" was true.

If it's fiction, it's something that someone imagines could have happened or could happen at best, and something that has absolutely no relation to reality at worst.
Hm... I think there's a lot of crossover here. I think that if it's fiction, written fiction, that exists in Prime then it's in a sense more real because then it has power to influence Prime. To go similarly cyclical to AuraTwilight, the fiction influences Prime which influences new fiction, which influences Prime again, and so on. And any fiction that depicts events shrouded in a cat-box is a legitimate what-if scenario, at least until the cat-box is opened.

Funny that one of the difficulties with Umineko is that we probably know more about what's inside the cat-box than what's outside. It's kind of a weird, inverted viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
The scene we saw in arc 4 was actually a figurative event. What really happened is that Ange understood Kasumi and managed to bring her to her senses. The "Kasumi" that we are presented in arc 4, which is mostly an equivalent of Rosa's "dark witch", died as a result of that. Afterward Ange vanished because she changed her name to be a Sumadera and continued to live with Kasumi as a happy family - seperating herself from her past by giving up on her family name, much like her brother did before her.
Well, the point I'm making is that if the 1998 EP4 narrative was a cat-box that existed as a fictionally written story in Prime, Kasumi's status should be independently verifiable and thus a way to falsify that fiction. Of course if Kasumi did disappear at that time for some reason it could still work. Actually, it wouldn't be such a surprise if Okonogi was responsible for that, even if Kasumi never chased Ange to Rokkenjima.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Witch Hunters notice Ange Ushiromiya went missing in 1998. FANFICTION TIME <3
Haha, but I think the question is about why RK07 would have us read Witch Hunter fanfiction.
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Old 2012-07-05, 01:27   Link #29569
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Because it tells us stuff that's important, and it's relevant to Meta-Ange's character arc regardless of what this may or may not mean for "Prime Ange".

Also, it's Ryukishi. The guy who can write 17 pages on why tea is brown. I don't really question why he puts shit in his novels anymore.
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Old 2012-07-05, 01:50   Link #29570
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Originally Posted by Wanderer;4238622Funny that one of the difficulties with Umineko is that we probably know more about what's inside the cat-box than what's [B
outside[/B]. It's kind of a weird, inverted viewpoint.
More like we know absolutely nothing about the outside, but we've been allowed to make some non-random guesses about it (at least not entirely random).


Quote:
Well, the point I'm making is that if the 1998 EP4 narrative was a cat-box that existed as a fictionally written story in Prime, Kasumi's status should be independently verifiable and thus a way to falsify that fiction. Of course if Kasumi did disappear at that time for some reason it could still work. Actually, it wouldn't be such a surprise if Okonogi was responsible for that, even if Kasumi never chased Ange to Rokkenjima.
Death (in Umineko) is a subjective word with a lot of subjective value. As thus the life/death status of anyone cannot be used to credit or discredit anything. If the story was meant to be figurative, it'd be useless to discredit it based on literal facts.
"This is not the literal truth" is beaten down by "I never said it'd be the literal truth".

I don't think even expecting a single literal element in the entirety of Umineko is a very good idea. We're basically reading a bible-sized poem about love.


Oh and uh I feel like I've been repeating that over and over, but Ange's role is to be a parallel to our own relation to the story on one side, and on the other side she was meant to parallel Yasu's life. That Ange's life shares so much with Yasu's life in term of traumatic events suggest to me that either or both are actually entirely fictional. You could overall say that if you mix up Battler and Beatrice, you get Ange. That's just way too convenient for the author to be the actual truth.

Edit : Ending up expanding on this. Maria in arc 7 denies the events between her and Ange mentioned by Ange in arc 4. Isn't there a chance Maria from arc 7 is right? I guess I'm proposing this :
Both the Ange story of 1998 and Battler/Beatrice's story of 1986 share a lot of elements, especially figuratively and, if both are fictions, in the purpose they have for the author. Both actually points out to the same one truth and this is where "prime" really lies. If anything that's not an approach I think anyone had yet. It could be worth a try to see the results.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-07-05 at 02:21.
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Old 2012-07-05, 07:38   Link #29571
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Wait are you suggesting that every magic scene in Umineko are the same as the Hinamizawa disease? I thought these theories were flushed pretty much straighfowardly by 07/LD in arc 5.
No... I didn't just mention Higurashi... the other two have nothing to do with "hinamizawa" syndrome. And I didn't say that all the magic scenes in Umineko are like that. I'm just saying that the imaginary things Ange sees in EP4 do not necessarily imply that everything in the narration of Ange in 1998 is fake. And I cited other stories where this is definitely true.
Beside the fact that Ange is the only one who sees all these strange things is consistent with the idea that she just fantasies about them or that they are illusions, and this is in stark contrast with magic scenes in the gameboards where when a demon appears everyone sees it.

That's why defining Ange's illusions as "magic scenes" doesn't make sense to me. They're not, they're completely different.

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Convenient how you are sure they are leaked. I'm sure they weren't? Well I'm not but I "could be" as much as you are sure of the opposite.
Let's just say it's a possibility, and why not? there's nothing that would make me think someone would go all the trouble to shut everyone up about the existence of that island. There are probably hundreds of different people that have been there.
There are in the first place all the people who built the various Mansions and since the guesthouse was built about 30 years after the rest I suppose that's even two differen teams.
Then you have all the various persons that are mentioned going to Krauss to propose their investments, and there have been probably some that have talked to Kinzo before.
Then you have the people that Krauss hired to investigate the island.
The you have all the fukuin servants that for a 30 years have been working there and none of them stayed for more than 3 years.
Then of course there's Kawabata.

If that island existed it'd be practically impossible to keep its existence and location secret. Beside nothing suggests that Jessica or Rosa ever made a mystery of where they lived with their classmates.


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Tho I disagree about the press' factuality. I've been reading six newspapper daily lately and compared their "factual info" on various topics. It's incredible how much discrepency can occur. I'm not simply talking about the pov the journalist is giving to his article, I'm talking about statistics and things that should normally be facts that lies outside of the realm of interpretation.
Not to fall into witch-hunter like conspiracy theories, but journalists also tend not to verify their "facts" very much.
Well I agree with that. It's appalling how imprecise or outright wrong some articles you find in nation-wide distributed newespaper are. But at least I think that they can't be imprecise enough to claim the existence of a whole island if it doesn't exist. Not for a prolonged time. Unless there is conspiracy in action. But my stance with conspiracy theorists is that they're always the ones that must provide the proof that they are right. Because there's absolutely nothing you can't explain or that you cannot question by postulating a conspiracy theory. It's like magic.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
But I disagree about how easy of access it is : if it was it would've been full of witch hunters all the time.
You're fighting me using arguments that normally would be a given and make sense, but those same kind of arguments denied Shkanon among things - things that aren't actually part of the story but that we tend to assume. Like for one how can you know that Google Earth was released on prime universe of Umineko?
No I can't, but normally in a story, unless it's outright stated it's an alternate universe, you assume that the world is the same as ours with the only exception of the story being told. If it wasn't so, then why would people even talk about anachronisms? Anyway the many historical events that have been narrated match with those of our world and the technological advancement is also consistent. There is no mention of internet in 1986, but it is mentioned in 1998 and beyond. So why not google earth?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Witch Hunters notice Ange Ushiromiya went missing in 1998. FANFICTION TIME <3
I guess I can't really debate if your stance is that ryuukishi wrote something for absolutely no reason such in the brown tea you mentioned earlier.
But let's just say that I strongly doubt that's the case with Ange's story in Ep4. I think it's meant to be significant. besides Ryuukishi in an interview implied you're supposed to use informations that come from there to understand that a huge explosion occurred.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Oh...and concerning Google Earth: I'd assume they wouldn't simply let you take a stroll around the island via Google Earth. I haven't checked so much private property on Google Earth, but I'd assume they would blur pretty much everything by the reason of privacy.
Like nothing is blurred at all? Your house is there for everyone to see it.
But there is indeed a chance Rokkenjima couldn't be seen on google earth, not for privacy reasons but because only populated areas are scanned at high definition.


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Oh and uh I feel like I've been repeating that over and over, but Ange's role is to be a parallel to our own relation to the story
Except Ange there finds things that we could never find simply by using our reasonings. The parallelism doesn't really work because Ange doesn't really reason about the gameboards she had read, she approaches the problem from a perspective we never tried before, it's a perspective we didn't even know existing before. She looks for actual proofs in the real world.
And about all those closed rooms we've been reasoning up to that point... she couldn't care less.
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Old 2012-07-05, 09:12   Link #29572
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Like nothing is blurred at all? Your house is there for everyone to see it.
But there is indeed a chance Rokkenjima couldn't be seen on google earth, not for privacy reasons but because only populated areas are scanned at high definition.
Don't you have the option over in your country to get your place blurred out?
Of course only in personal view, but the satellite view brings you only so close most of the time, that it doesn't actually give you a really informative view anyway.

Also, Google Maps, including the satellite/aerial view, was only launched in 2005, 19 years after the Rokkenjima incident and pictures are very likely to be from at least 15 years after it.
It's not unlikely that Kuwadorian was already overgrown with vegetation during the time of the last conference, considering it went "out of business" in the late 60's. That means by the 2000's it will probably be nothing more than a slightly visible, less densely overgrown space (if the garden really was as spacious as the anime made us believe)...parts of the Kuwadorian ruin are very likely invisible from even several hundred feet in the air.
And the only thing that'd actually be visible of the mansion's site would be a crater which over a century later would have also widely been reclaimed by the wild.

You would probably find an island in 2005 using Google Earth, but you'd have no way to prove what stood where and what could have happened there without closer investigation.
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Old 2012-07-05, 09:30   Link #29573
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Wait... but this is only 20-30 years after 1986.... not an entire century. How do we know that the Lizzie Bordon house was where a gruesome murder took place after a century?
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Old 2012-07-05, 10:04   Link #29574
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Wait... but this is only 20-30 years after 1986.... not an entire century. How do we know that the Lizzie Bordon house was where a gruesome murder took place after a century?
Argh, decade, not century
But there is a pretty big difference between a murder case committed in the middle of a town, with not only active media coverage of the case, but the suspect continuing to live at the crime scene. Still the murder remains debated even today, though we have much closer access to it than people of Prime would have to Rokkenjima.
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Old 2012-07-05, 14:56   Link #29575
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I guess I can't really debate if your stance is that ryuukishi wrote something for absolutely no reason such in the brown tea you mentioned earlier.
But let's just say that I strongly doubt that's the case with Ange's story in Ep4. I think it's meant to be significant. besides Ryuukishi in an interview implied you're supposed to use informations that come from there to understand that a huge explosion occurred.
I'm not disagreeing with this at all. The information is useful and possibly important.

That doesn't mean any of that 1998 narrative actually happened, though. Not the slightest bit.
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Old 2012-07-05, 21:59   Link #29576
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No... I didn't just mention Higurashi... the other two have nothing to do with "hinamizawa" syndrome. And I didn't say that all the magic scenes in Umineko are like that. I'm just saying that the imaginary things Ange sees in EP4 do not necessarily imply that everything in the narration of Ange in 1998 is fake. And I cited other stories where this is definitely true.
Beside the fact that Ange is the only one who sees all these strange things is consistent with the idea that she just fantasies about them or that they are illusions, and this is in stark contrast with magic scenes in the gameboards where when a demon appears everyone sees it.
Hmm well I can't go with this, sorry. I didn't mean necessarily Hinamizawa discease, but basically the same sort of situation where someone's perception is genuinely altered. I just basically think that redefining magic scenes's logic to suit your specific need of your specific theory/belief doesn't go very well.
It's again, a bit too convenient.

Right in arc 1, btw, Battler is with Maria/Kanon/Kumasawa and they tell him that Beatrice is right there but he cannot see her.
What's so different?

Quote:
~ everything else
Bah I don't really think this is getting anywhere. Let's just say from my POV you are preventing yourself from approaching Umineko in a different light. I suppose if you are already satisfied with the story as it is, it makes a lot of sense to be that way.
However if you aren't, well maybe that's why.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm not disagreeing with this at all. The information is useful and possibly important.

That doesn't mean any of that 1998 narrative actually happened, though. Not the slightest bit.
Just to support this further, that religious myth are not necessarily based on reality at all doesn't change that they can have a lot of value. Discarding the essence of a message based on realism things is pretty much missing the point to me. Sadly in that specific case it's that proponents and opponents both treat something figurative as literal.
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Old 2012-07-06, 06:32   Link #29577
haguruma
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I just basically think that redefining magic scenes's logic to suit your specific need of your specific theory/belief doesn't go very well.
It's again, a bit too convenient.
I would partly agree with thus phrase, especially because it overvaluates certain scenes and utterances on the gameboard. But I need to go further, because I don't agree with you completely either.

I would go so far as to say, that there is not a single scene where the existence of the fantasy-plane is actually acknowledged at a 100% by any character until Chiru, and even then it only happens in asides that are clearly constructed as being "at the sidelines of the gameboard" (like characters switching in and out of roles). Such scenes are for example Erika halting her detective character to make her role clear to Battler or Jessica in the tea-room recognizing her existence as a piece on a gameboard.

During the consistent stories (which are told to us as stories and not discussed like in the analysis that is Chiru) there is always ambivalence about what characters actually witness. Take for example the scene of EP4's first twilight:
Yes, Battler is told that the people witnessed demons from hell being summoned by Kinz˘ and we witnessed it, but there is nothing indicating that it is actually what the characters witnessed because they did not comment on it directly.

Of course it is possible to compare the "rational narrative + magical narrative" structure of Umineko to Higurashi's "reality vs. paranoia-delusion narrative" on a technical level and what it tries to achieve. Both depend on the reader growing aware of the small narrative inconsistencies left at the seams where the two layers were fused together.
The difference is that, while Higurashi's two-layer structure has an actual impact on the plot of the one narrative reality we are told, Umineko's two layer structure happens parallel to each other and we are positioned on the upper stratum (the meta world) together with other characters to investigate it from outside.

This leads me to the conclusion that it doesn't matter within Umineko whether something is "real" on one of the layers within the narrative, because we are looking at it from above and have this multiple access to everything.

If we had to draw a comparison to Higurashi it would be, that unlike there where we were only slightly less knowledgeable than Rika and only slightly more than her friends, in Umineko we are a "spectating witch" from the very beginning.
Assume the future of the Kai anime version of the Devil's Script where a certain person survived or Yoigoshi had these characters becoming authors and proposing explanations to the Hinamizawa disaster by writing the tales we witnessed. To the world of Tsumihoroboshi for example the events of Onikakushi would be ficticious, as would be the world of Matsuribayashi, but it wouldn't make it less true for us, because we witnessed it along with the characters.

What this also entails in the very end is that: In a world where magic exists (and as we should already know there is nothing like a 0 chance) the parents would have witnessed Ushiromiya Kinz˘ summoning the demons from hell to rip his family apart. BUT, in a world where magic does not exist it was probably simply Yasu entering the room, tossing the Winchester rifles on the table and everyone going batshit crazy out of fear to end up being killed.
What role we actually have in all this is what AT already said: Deny the magical characters entrance into our world and thus killing them more and more or allowing them to exist. This extends to the message that we, as people over the future possess the power over the reality (not the real events, simply what we perceive as our past reality) of the past.
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Old 2012-07-06, 07:28   Link #29578
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Don't you have the option over in your country to get your place blurred out?
Of course only in personal view, but the satellite view brings you only so close most of the time, that it doesn't actually give you a really informative view anyway.

[...]

You would probably find an island in 2005 using Google Earth, but you'd have no way to prove what stood where and what could have happened there without closer investigation.
I thought the issue was just confirming the very existence of the island, not what's inside it.
Beside, if there's really a 1km wide crater it should be quite visible from above, and I think that'd be pretty significative.

As for going all the trouble to make google earth blur Rokkenjima, who exactly would bother do that several years after the incident and why?



Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Hmm well I can't go with this, sorry. I didn't mean necessarily Hinamizawa discease, but basically the same sort of situation where someone's perception is genuinely altered. I just basically think that redefining magic scenes's logic to suit your specific need of your specific theory/belief doesn't go very well.
It's again, a bit too convenient.
It's not to suit my "need" it's part of my theories regarding the narrative system in Umineko. I "redefined" the interpretation of the gameboards back at the time of EP5 when the author theory still wasn't accepted. I don't tnink there's anything wrong with that, it's just the way I see it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Right in arc 1, btw, Battler is with Maria/Kanon/Kumasawa and they tell him that Beatrice is right there but he cannot see her.
What's so different?
I never considered that a magic scene... and that's the first time I hear anyone considering it as such...


Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Bah I don't really think this is getting anywhere. Let's just say from my POV you are preventing yourself from approaching Umineko in a different light. I suppose if you are already satisfied with the story as it is, it makes a lot of sense to be that way.
However if you aren't, well maybe that's why.
It's not a habit of mine to interpret things the way I "like" them, just the way I think it's more rational and consistent with the informations I possess.
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Old 2012-07-08, 06:13   Link #29579
Drifloon
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Hm, there seems to be some kind of 'battle' going on between the Shkanontrice supporters and the KnownNoMore supporters on /seacats/ right now.

Though it just seems to be the same repeated arguments over the logic error and the EP3 first twilight that always seem to happen.
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Old 2012-07-08, 07:13   Link #29580
Xenon_gun
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Hm, there seems to be some kind of 'battle' going on between the Shkanontrice supporters and the KnownNoMore supporters on /seacats/ right now.

Though it just seems to be the same repeated arguments over the logic error and the EP3 first twilight that always seem to happen.
Yeah. The biggest problem for any side is that there is no opponent that knows the real truth, or a solution. If they manage to reach something logical, props to them, but I doubt they will.

I mean, we have a number of variant theories just stemming from Shkanontrice, any of which might or might not be correct. Let's not forget George culprit or Battler culprit or of course the candy theory. Then, there's also the Gohda EP2 circus theory (courtesy of Renall).
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