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Old 2012-07-05, 17:03   Link #9901
ccie20012
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@Tenchi Hou Take

agree. Medaka brain operate "nonhuman" logic. Medaka is not a human. Now almost a human.

Think different (c)
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Old 2012-07-05, 19:50   Link #9902
chidorimen
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Somebody might've already mentioned this, but it's pretty obvious that the director is the next bad guy.
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Old 2012-07-05, 23:58   Link #9903
orangejuicetang
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I think there are actually several plotlines Nisio could choose to pick up after this arc for his next arc.

The first is obviously the mysterious Director introduced in the latest chapter, who despite arguably working in a place researching abnormals, insists that 'there are no special people within this world'.

Another would be to explore the 'dark side' of the Kurokami family. What was so special about Medaka's parents? What was the reason that Medaka turned out so special? Why did Medaka turn out so special? Note that this could even tie back to the original flask plan where Ouji tries to take Medka'as abnormality and discovers 'something' within her.

Of course, another plotline could simply also be hunting down Medaka's foster father's murderer.

Or it may be some combination of these ideas, or something else entirely.
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Old 2012-07-06, 00:39   Link #9904
Hendog
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Or he could even have an arc about Zenkichi's dad.
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Old 2012-07-06, 00:45   Link #9905
Clarste
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I don't think it's possible to mention Zen's dad, because there'd be no avoiding the fact that he's clearly a pedophile.

I think Hitomi works best as a character when you don't examine her apparent age too closely. The series has done a remarkable job of making me take her seriously as a doctor and a mother, and I think introducing Zen's dad would ruin that.

She seems like the "single mom" type anyway.
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Old 2012-07-06, 01:24   Link #9906
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I don't think it's possible to mention Zen's dad, because there'd be no avoiding the fact that he's clearly a pedophile.

I think Hitomi works best as a character when you don't examine her apparent age too closely. The series has done a remarkable job of making me take her seriously as a doctor and a mother, and I think introducing Zen's dad would ruin that.

She seems like the "single mom" type anyway.
Probably but it's not exactly rare in manga's for guys to go out with girls that are clearly loli's even when there's a rather large age group. There's also the chance that he is also a shouta lol.
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Old 2012-07-06, 07:36   Link #9907
Randrak42
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I'm sorry but Zen having a loli mom and a shouta dad would kill him...outright kill me from laughter.
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Old 2012-07-06, 10:43   Link #9908
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Medaka has always been dumb, she gave up on a guy she seemingly still likes because he rejected her when he was two. That's a new whole level of moron. I pretty certain there's extremely socially inept people out there that would see the issue with that scenario.
Not really. Medaka's feelings for Zen were pretty much explained in this chapter, didn't people notice? We were given an explicit explanation for the basis of all of Medaka's previous "no one is special" statements regarding people, and confirmed that the way that Medaka has always viewed Zenkichi all along is as being completely "ordinary".

Medaka's initial desperate marriage proposal to Zen was based on the perception that he was "special". Similarly, her initial determination to stay together with him. In Medaka's words, the idea of someone "special" seems to be a person whose status or existence has been fixed in place or fixed together somehow by "bonds" of "fate" or outside influence. That is to say, the notions of "Zen and I are meant to be together", or "Zen matches me", are explicitly the kinds of "fated" ideas which Medaka does not believe in.

You can say that Medaka's infatuated/dependent feelings for Zen arise from this illusion of "specialness". Yes, this applies to Medaka's proposal at 2 years old, and also the way Medaka responded after her loss at the 99th Student Council elections. In essence, what Zenkichi has now given (several times) to Medaka is guidance/a path towards staying human. Because this is such a huge deal for Medaka, she has often responded to this by temporarily "falling in love" with him; but the point which Medaka actually brought up in this chapter is that the most important thing for her now is erasing this dependence she has on Zenkichi. Medaka should be, and is, learning how to be human on her own. Like she said, a human who is dependent on others cannot truly be with others. Since Zenkichi's human guidance for her has always been the entire basis for Medaka's attraction/attachment to him, what this is basically saying is that Medaka is intentionally erasing her own motivations for depending on/liking him.

So you see, the actual basis of Medaka's relationship with Zen right now is "even if no one is special, I don't want to be alone". And in this regard, there is no reason in particular for Medaka to desire marriage (alternatively, on somewhat the same level however, there is no reason in particular at the current moment for Medaka to reject Zenkichi's proposal). The point is actually that up to this point Medaka had reason to believe "Zenkichi will chase after me/catch up to me/never leave me alone" anyway, regardless of what sort of relationship they had between them, so there was no reason for Medaka to even think about marrying Zenkichi after he rejected her two-year-old proposal.


In any case, expanding a bit on this--regarding my own thoughts on the current developments in the story (which I might seem to have a blatant position on, as everybody might already have a predisposed image of me as a Kumagawa x Medaka shipper, lol). Let me first say that Nishio has actually avoided one of my major criticisms by erasing Medaka's attraction/infatuated dependence upon Zenkichi. Ever since the end of the "main character" Election/Not Equals arc, I thought it was absolutely retarded for Medaka to be emotionally reliant on Zen for matters regarding her own humanity, and embarrassing for her to be unable to stand independently. However, here in this chapter what we have seen is that gaining that independence is actually one of Medaka's major motivations, and that she has put a substantial amount of thought towards that aspect of her personality. This has gone a long way towards restoring my respect for Medaka's character.

However, what this also means is that the potential Zenkichi x Medaka romance which is on the verge of being set up with this cliffhanger has a basis in something else entirely. Furthermore, in particular, as a matter of writing, it is a basis which makes any romantic relationship Nishio might decide to push forward at this point far less easy to immediately criticise. So, yes, Medaka x Zenkichi might happen.

The point is: yes, Medaka doesn't think Zenkichi is special, but she's firmly decided that she doesn't want to be alone. (From a human perspective, this is completely natural). If Medaka chooses marriage as a matter of resolving that simple loneliness, while there isn't any reason Medaka has to choose Zenkichi (Kumagawa, for example, is someone whom we also know would work with Medaka just as well), there is one big edge in favour of Zenkichi: Medaka's faith that Zenkichi in particular, as a matter of human will and simple personality, is a person who will always catch up to her and not leave her alone. This is something Medaka has more reason to trust Zenkichi in than any other person in the universe, due to their 14 years of history--through which Zenkichi has always followed her, and doggedly stayed by her side.

From Medaka's side I think this decision is pretty straightforward. We'll wait for her reply next week. Even if she's not driven by "love" or "fate" or "bonds" or any such feelings, if there are no compelling reasons for why Medaka should not accept Zenkichi's proposal, we might well see this relationship go forward. On the other hand, the one big question which still remains for me and which I expect to see answered eventually is: why would/does Zenkichi even love Medaka in the first place?

Until that question is answered, I can't fully consider Medaka x Zenkichi a cinch. Ultimately, even Medaka's whole faith in their 14 years of history is based on this fundamental question. Why did Zenkichi, at 2 years old, decide that he would always chase after Medaka? How did Zenkichi, at 2 years old, become possessed by a "love" that would even lead him to committing seppuku to reject other girls in the future? Has there ever actually been any rational basis for Zenkichi's feelings? If this question isn't answered, Zenkichi's interest in Medaka will always seem to me to be irredeemably shallow.

In any case, here's the real issue which is at stake. We've got Emukae, who is a Minus who's lived through a lifetime of suffering and only found the strength to become human thanks to her love for Zenkichi. Then we've got Medaka, who's lived a life depending on Zenkichi for her humanity and has determined for her own good that she should break from that dependence, and forge her own humanity apart from him. One's connection to Zenkichi is a genuine love and devotion; the other's only real connection to Zenkichi is a desire to avoid loneliness. Is there any rational justification for why Zenkichi should pursue Medaka on a romantic level? (If he is going to friendzone anybody, I would think the other way around would be most suitable.)

The one thing that I do have faith in, by the way, is that thus far in all of Nishio's writings I have found him to be an eminently rational and intelligent author. While leveraging the interactions of his characters as entertainment, and at the same time treating their emotions and beliefs as human, the actual themes and conclusions Nishio has pushed by the end of his stories have had fully rational and educational resolutions. So I don't expect Nishio to leave this obvious imbalance between Medaka and Emukae hanging. Ultimately Nishio is going to introduce either a correction or justification for Zenkichi's choice to chase after Medaka, and I am currently betting on "correction"; but if it turns out to be a worthy justification, I will of course allow myself to be satisfied.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 20/5 :: Yama no Susume 30/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-07-06 at 12:35.
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Old 2012-07-06, 10:46   Link #9909
Randrak42
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I wonder what would happen if a male version of Medaka came into the picture then.
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Old 2012-07-06, 11:23   Link #9910
ccie20012
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@Sol Falling

The absolute demagoguery. Agree, you just for some unknown reason do not like the obvious couple - Zen x Medaka. Previously, there were many pages of debate, that Zen does not like Medaka. This argument has been exhausted. Zen loves a one girl - and it Medaka.

The last chapters of Zen make a huge poster - "I chose the Medaka. I needed only Medaka. Sorry, Emukae, but I love another."

I do not want to anticipate the future, but I'll be very happy if Medaka respond to feelings of Zen. I think it will be so.

Sorry for my English.

P.S. "loli mom and a shouta dad" - ROFL
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Old 2012-07-06, 12:20   Link #9911
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
@Sol Falling

The absolute demagoguery. Agree, you just for some unknown reason do not like the obvious couple - Zen x Medaka. Previously, there were many pages of debate, that Zen does not like Medaka. This argument has been exhausted. Zen loves a one girl - and it Medaka.

The last chapters of Zen make a huge poster - "I chose the Medaka. I needed only Medaka. Sorry, Emukae, but I love another."

I do not want to anticipate the future, but I'll be very happy if Medaka respond to feelings of Zen. I think it will be so.

Sorry for my English.
I see that most of my post went over your head, and that indeed it might be pointless to try too hard to communicate with you on account of your unfamiliarity with English. Here's an attempt to put what I've said in simpler terms, however:

- I've pretty exhaustively explained my issues with Medaka x Zenkichi as a couple. They are not "unknown" reasons. There are two things:
  1. The fact that Medaka's attraction to Zen is based only on some cheap and shallow feeling of "fate", whereby Zen saying simple things like "You were born to help people" or "You should find your own purpose" was enough to make her emotionally dependent on him.
  2. The fact that Zenkichi's attraction to Medaka is also similarly cliched/shallow, and has received even less explanation or justification in the story.

- No one has ever denied the obvious reality that Zenkichi is in love with Medaka. This has been completely clear and has practically defined Zen's character since chapter one. However, the lack of reasoning for Medaka to be interested in Zen has already been clearly explained
  • Medaka doesn't believe in fate: she learned that no one is special, and is only content to be with Zen because she is human and doesn't want to be lonely.

So, it would be very simple for Nishio to address the other half
  • Why does Zenkichi love Medaka?
and fully deconstruct both sides of this obviously cliche and poorly-constructed romantic relationship.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 20/5 :: Yama no Susume 30/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2012-07-06, 12:22   Link #9912
willx
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@Sol Falling

That was a huge block of text. Here's my 2 cents as a former "bad boy" "playboy" and someone who never ever wanted to get married (nor do I want kids) -- but just recently got engaged.

At some point, having been with a person and having grown together and experienced a plethora of experiences together - you simply cannot imagine your life without them at your side. As a rationale human being, you simply take the things you dislike, but are important to your partner, into consideration when you make your choices and sometimes acquiesce.

tl;dr version: Why do I love you? Let me count the ways.. Er, I can't think of anything concrete but in Medaka's own words -- In Chapter 6 -- "Do you think I'd ever like it if you left me? I wouldn't like it! I'd cry!"
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Old 2012-07-06, 12:29   Link #9913
Randrak42
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Gonna get flamed for this but...

Love ain't rational or logical most of the time. Having a clear-cut explanation as to why you love someone isn't always needed or even possible.

Well that's what I think, at least :I
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Old 2012-07-06, 13:31   Link #9914
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
@Sol Falling

That was a huge block of text. Here's my 2 cents as a former "bad boy" "playboy" and someone who never ever wanted to get married (nor do I want kids) -- but just recently got engaged.

At some point, having been with a person and having grown together and experienced a plethora of experiences together - you simply cannot imagine your life without them at your side. As a rationale human being, you simply take the things you dislike, but are important to your partner, into consideration when you make your choices and sometimes acquiesce.

tl;dr version: Why do I love you? Let me count the ways.. Er, I can't think of anything concrete but in Medaka's own words -- In Chapter 6 -- "Do you think I'd ever like it if you left me? I wouldn't like it! I'd cry!"
Heh. Thanks for your thought and input; I admit that that block of text was pretty huge. I think the factors you've mentioned here are a very natural reason for why Medaka might accept Zenkichi's proposal. However, they don't explain Zenkichi's proposal itself.

Moments like you quoted from Medaka are exactly the kind of thing which Medaka said she wanted to grow out of when she mentioned no longer wanting to be "a human who can't do anything without Zenkichi around". Medaka doesn't want to depend on Zenkichi, find him necessary, or be bound to him--she wants to be able to stand independently. In that sense, "friendship" is pretty much a perfect form of relationship that she could have with Zenkichi; because then she could always be together with him, but not depend on him. At the same time, though, marriage itself being only a formal contract, there's no reason Medaka has to become dependent on Zenkichi again even if they got married to each other--so she might agree to go through with it simply because Zenkichi wants to.

Zenkichi, though, is the "pursuer" here--he's the one trying to push himself and Medaka towards a closer relationship. He's the one who is explicitly in love with Medaka, to the extent of rejecting Emukae. From a selfish perspective, if Zenkichi wants to marry Medaka and Medaka's okay with it, everything is perfectly fine. However, from an empathetic or rational perspective, this course of events is certainly painful for others (i.e. Emukae in particular; Kumagawa as somewhat a distant secondary, because he is used to losing). It's precisely because Zenkichi does recognize the pain he is causing that he committed harakiri.

However, if Zenkichi does recognize the pain he is causing, and is not simply pursuing Medaka for selfish reasons (i.e. "I want to grope breasts" or whatever, lol), then he has to eventually present (to us, or himself) a rational justification for why he is actually following this current course of action. The explanation Zenkichi threw out to Emukae on the spur of the moment was "I will always be in love with Medaka; even in another life", but that is purely emotional. At some point, Zenkichi has to sit down and think about why he has those emotions, and whether they actually make sense at all; because at the very least, those emotions were detrimental enough to Zenkichi that he was driven to cut his stomach open. Would it really be so bad to accept Emukae, and friendzone Medaka? Is the difference really so huge for him that he would even stab himself to prove it?

What is Zenkichi really chasing after? Is it really worth so much that he should give up everything he has thus far to obtain it? As an impartial member of the audience observing Zenkichi's actions, these are the questions which have to be answered before I can consider him a complete character. Can anyone actually understand why Zenkichi loves Medaka so much that he would reject Emukae while stabbing himself in the stomach? If we can't find a rational explanation for this, and a rational explanation never arrives in the form of the story, then this would become a real example of those often abused words, "bad writing".


edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Gonna get flamed for this but...

Love ain't rational or logical most of the time. Having a clear-cut explanation as to why you love someone isn't always needed or even possible.

Well that's what I think, at least :I
You are correct in this on a personal level. Lots of people, most often, aren't really aware on a logical or conscious level why they are in love with someone. However, from a storytelling perspective, narrative events and characterization certainly do require some form of rational justification. That's the entire basis of other people, aside from the author, being able to appreciate the story.

Why does Zenkichi love Medaka might not be truly important for Zenkichi to know, but it is something important for us as the audience to know. As far as I'm concerned, right now (or for most of the story actually) Zenkichi's love for Medaka has been presented as unsympathetic and irrational.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 20/5 :: Yama no Susume 30/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-07-06 at 13:58.
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Old 2012-07-06, 13:33   Link #9915
ccie20012
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@ Sol Falling
I understand you. Maybe I can not write an answer to the correct English. But I understand the text.

The bottom line is that:
- You're trying describe a love in terms of scientific theory. is puzzling. this is not an equation of type
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...74763a30ab.png
- I just like watching a romantic history - as Zen conquers the heart of his beloved. It's fun for me. I'm not try describe or analyse manga. I do not appreciate the artistic techniques. I just read the manga like a normal/regular person.

- Medaka not quite human. So that she could love a man, you need to first "give freedom to Medaka". If Zen confession to Medaka at the beginning of the manga, I think the answer would be this - I can not love you because I can not love the individual. To some extent, the manga is dedicated to the transformation Medaka to an ordinary girl. And the role of Zen in this is enormous. Therefore, he deserved it (love of Medaka).

Love does not demand an explanation. It is an axiom in itself.
I love this girl and not love another girl.
Zen loves to Medaka. Zen does not like Emukae.
You go to a restaurant and order the meat.
To you bring the fish and explain that the fish is delicious.
Or even this:
To you bring the fish and require you explain why you want the meat.
But you just want the meat. You do not need to explain it, and you do not need an explanation.


+5 cent

Do you drink your favorite beer. Do you like the taste of this beer. You are seek at this moment a rational explanation for why you like the taste?
Perhaps this could be the subject of scientific or pseudo-scientific work.
But it can not be done simultaneously.
You can not explore why the likes beer and enjoy drinking beer at the bar. simultaneously.
About Zen.
Zen also very consistent in their feelings. This is not the weak and weak-willed hero manga, which can not choose a girl, can not confess to the girl and the like. A weak heart, weak-willed character.
Zen wonderful character who loves one (!) girl throughout the manga.

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-06 at 15:51.
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Old 2012-07-06, 13:37   Link #9916
kingstonbeer
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The minute someone said Zen's dad might be a shouta I instantly thought of Maya tenju tenge to explain away the childlike forms for him and his wife.
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Old 2012-07-06, 13:58   Link #9917
willx
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@Sol Falling - this is my first LONG post in a LONG time :P

You're not understanding my point and you're missing something fundamental. My Medaka quote is something SHE said, but can NOW be applied to HIM.

Why does he love her? Is she special, amazing and an absolutely awesome existence? Yes. Does she have some terrible flaws? Yes. Does he love her for and as well as despite those qualities? Maybe .. but your question is WHY?!

The answer?

1) This isn't romantic, but is simply something that happens in the world -- Time. They are and have been partners for a very long time.
2) Because as a child he loved her, childishly. As a young boy, he loves her, as a young boy can. And as a man that's been close to her, and that can still see her as a woman, he .. *ahem* "loves" her that way too (she is hot after all!).
3) He's also human (and selfish) -- he thought about making her new purpose in life be his girlfriend, but decides that it's more important for her to be her - this event is now a catalyst: "While you search for yourself .. be beside me .. and let me be beside you (recite to yourself in cool boss sounding voice)"

And about Emukae, having personally dated a number of girls over the years I can answer you this -- it's not right or wrong to pick one girl over another .. but it's incredibly easy to choose between those you'd like to date (or do more ..) and those that you don't.

Don't even need to think about it. It's like breathing. Heck, you can date them on a whim and leave them if you don't like them -- but if there's no chemistry .. it ends. Quick.

..Now, that doesn't mean you don't feel like crap for dumping or hurting a girl and perhaps may pay penance for it .. not sure I'd gut myself though.

tl;dr - (revised) Zenkichi: "Do you think I'd ever like it if you left me [Medaka]? I wouldn't like it! I'd [never give up]! (..and continue to be a boss!)"
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Old 2012-07-06, 16:02   Link #9918
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
Love does not demand an explanation. It is an axiom in itself.
I love this girl and not love another girl.
Zen loves to Medaka. Zen does not like Emukae.
You go to a restaurant and order the meat.
To you bring the fish and explain that the fish is delicious.
Or even this:
To you bring the fish and require you explain why you want the meat.
But you just want the meat. You do not need to explain it, and you do not need an explanation.
Haha. First of all, love actually can be explained completely in the manner of a scientific equation. Factors such as biology, psychology, social/environmental conditions and personality can all be logically synthesized into an explanation for why one person loves another person. It's not that it's impossible to do it; it's just that most people would never bother (and that's okay. Thinking too hard about these kinds of things occasionally leads to some unnatural conclusions. For a large proportion of humanity, the natural loves they develop instinctually are the correct ones that they should live by.).

However, from an external perspective, when you are not the person being caught up in wild feelings of love for somebody, you can hardly say that its acceptable for some random pointless and potentially (self-)destructive "love" to be accepted as an axiom. Using your example, if you talk about humans liking meat, the explanations for that are immediately obvious: Meat is nutritious. It tastes good. Humans have evolved towards this kind of inclination. There is no sense that "you do not need an explanation", simply that the explanation is immediately clear to anybody and everybody. However, if instead of cow meat or fish meat you were talking about a person who liked to eat garbage, no longer would it be valid to say "It's just an axiom, no need to think about it". Whether as the garbage eating individual him/herself, or as an impartial external observer, circumstances would warrant that someone begin thinking about the reasons and correctness of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
@Sol Falling - this is my first LONG post in a LONG time :P

You're not understanding my point and you're missing something fundamental. My Medaka quote is something SHE said, but can NOW be applied to HIM.

Why does he love her? Is she special, amazing and an absolutely awesome existence? Yes. Does she have some terrible flaws? Yes. Does he love her for and as well as despite those qualities? Maybe .. but your question is WHY?!

The answer?

1) This isn't romantic, but is simply something that happens in the world -- Time. They are and have been partners for a very long time.
2) Because as a child he loved her, childishly. As a young boy, he loves her, as a young boy can. And as a man that's been close to her, and that can still see her as a woman, he .. *ahem* "loves" her that way too (she is hot after all!).
3) He's also human (and selfish) -- he thought about making her new purpose in life be his girlfriend, but decides that it's more important for her to be her - this event is now a catalyst: "While you search for yourself .. be beside me .. and let me be beside you (recite to yourself in cool boss sounding voice)"

And about Emukae, having personally dated a number of girls over the years I can answer you this -- it's not right or wrong to pick one girl over another .. but it's incredibly easy to choose between those you'd like to date (or do more ..) and those that you don't.

Don't even need to think about it. It's like breathing. Heck, you can date them on a whim and leave them if you don't like them -- but if there's no chemistry .. it ends. Quick.

..Now, that doesn't mean you don't feel like crap for dumping or hurting a girl and perhaps may pay penance for it .. not sure I'd gut myself though.

tl;dr - (revised) Zenkichi: "Do you think I'd ever like it if you left me [Medaka]? I wouldn't like it! I'd [never give up]! (..and continue to be a boss!)"
The question at stake here is precisely whether you think factors like "time" or "chemistry" or "sexual attraction" are enough to make Zenkichi stabbing himself believable. Do you really think those are the reasons Zen prefers Medaka over Emukae? Do you really think Zenkichi feels those reasons strong enough to stab himself before even thinking of just having a normal friendship with Medaka, or a romantic relationship with Emukae?

Like, I can buy that Zen finds Medaka more sexually interesting than Emukae. That is certainly the order of my own preferences. However, the idea of Zenkichi gutting himself over something like that would make him plain retarded, period.

As for something as simple as chemistry, you can already see from Zenkichi's words when Kumagawa failed to heal his wound that this rejection of Emukae is something he means to carry eternally. Zenkichi's devotion to Medaka is clearly at a level that the question isn't whether Zenkichi wants to be with Emukae, but that he can't even be with Emukae.

The point is, all signs so far point to Zenkichi's love for Medaka arising from a far deeper aspect of his personality, than simply "I've been in love with her all this time, might as well keep doing it" or "I'm sexually attracted to her". Medaka was, and continues to be simply "special" to Zenkichi for reasons he cannot explain or fathom, and which Nishio has not begun to explore yet. However, at the time that Nishio does begin to explore it, he will also have the opportunity to break it down. In particular, there is a high chance that Nishio will break it down because Zenkichi's "Medaka is special" belief fundamentally contrasts and contradicts with Medaka's "No one is special" axiom.

The existential/nihilistic perspective of the universe Medaka is moving towards (i.e. "no one is special") is the most simple and natural conclusion that any logical mind will eventually come to. I have a bias towards it, I believe Nishio shares a bias towards it, and it's also explicitly the philosophy which was presented by three year old Kumagawa. Based on this philosophy, I believe Nishio will eventually crush Zenkichi's naive/unthinking conclusion that "Medaka is special". At the same time however, what Medaka is, and all of the other characters in Medaka Box are, is "human". That is a strong enough basis for all of the characters to come to share "empathy", and "empathy" alone is sufficient for a story to ensure a happy ending. Whereas Medaka will always be indebted to Zenkichi for guiding/anchoring her along her path to becoming human, in the end she will become independent of him; and at that time Zenkichi might find that Emukae is more deserving of his empathy. The naive idea of "fate" or "special" individuals, however, is almost certainly the concept which this manga was specifically conceived of to criticise.

To reiterate the point: Medaka Box as a narrative by Nishio Ishin was not conceived to be a "romance" between Medaka and Zenkichi; neither was it conceived as a story to say "Hey! Medaka is special". The central point Medaka Box's narrative is working towards is actually the philosophical statement "no one is special", even in spite of all of these ridiculous categories of "Pluses" or "Minuses", or metafictional "Main Characters"; this will be followed by a secondary corollary, equally valid for all characters, that "everyone is human".
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 20/5 :: Yama no Susume 30/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Old 2012-07-06, 16:24   Link #9919
ccie20012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
It is possible, but not necessary. Not every possible is necessary.
When I eat meat, I did not explore reasons why I love the taste of meat. I'm just eat.
And over 9000 human in world just eat it.
Or explore taste of meat or you eat it.
Deviate from the topic of food
Art operates on emotion, by senses.

I'm not sure I can well translated it into English

I refer to an authoritative source

Source - the tragedy "Mozart and Salieri" (1830) Alexander Pushkin (1799-1837). Word of Salieri (scene 1):
To art I made out of facility,
And facile I became: my fingers gained
A dry obedient dexterity,
My ear reliability. I deadened
The sounds, dissected music like a corpse,
Proved harmony by algebra. And then,
Then only did I dare, with all my lore,
Yield to the bliss of my creative fancy.
I started to compose, but quietly,
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/push...eksandr/p98mo/
Ironically: the futile attempt to judge the artistic creation, based only on a rational beginning, excluding the feelings, the unconscious, etc.


+ 5 cent

If we talk about science.
Also your approach is too mechanistic. In the genre of classical physics Newton.
A simple example. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e52d1b6cb0.png
You can not explain source this formula. The so-called interpretation. It just works, and it does not logical. In terms of consumer logic. But it's quantum mechanics and it is quite a scientific theory.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0709.4024



Quote:
Whereas Medaka will always be indebted to Zenkichi for guiding / anchoring her along her path to becoming human, in the end she will become independent of him; and at that time Zenkichi might find that Emukae is more deserving of his empathy.
Why?
I agree with the first part and disagree with the second.
There is Occam's razor. Do not invent unnecessary entities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
Emukae - then an extra essence. This is an artificial construct.
Zen love to Medaka. Medaka love to Zen. End.
The principle of least action.

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-06 at 17:24.
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Old 2012-07-06, 17:29   Link #9920
Tenchi Hou Take
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Haha. First of all, love actually can be explained completely in the manner of a scientific equation. Factors such as biology, psychology, social/environmental conditions and personality can all be logically synthesized into an explanation for why one person loves another person. It's not that it's impossible to do it; it's just that most people would never bother (and that's okay. Thinking too hard about these kinds of things occasionally leads to some unnatural conclusions. For a large proportion of humanity, the natural loves they develop instinctually are the correct ones that they should live by.).

However, from an external perspective, when you are not the person being caught up in wild feelings of love for somebody, you can hardly say that its acceptable for some random pointless and potentially (self-)destructive "love" to be accepted as an axiom. Using your example, if you talk about humans liking meat, the explanations for that are immediately obvious: Meat is nutritious. It tastes good. Humans have evolved towards this kind of inclination. There is no sense that "you do not need an explanation", simply that the explanation is immediately clear to anybody and everybody. However, if instead of cow meat or fish meat you were talking about a person who liked to eat garbage, no longer would it be valid to say "It's just an axiom, no need to think about it". Whether as the garbage eating individual him/herself, or as an impartial external observer, circumstances would warrant that someone begin thinking about the reasons and correctness of the situation.



The question at stake here is precisely whether you think factors like "time" or "chemistry" or "sexual attraction" are enough to make Zenkichi stabbing himself believable. Do you really think those are the reasons Zen prefers Medaka over Emukae? Do you really think Zenkichi feels those reasons strong enough to stab himself before even thinking of just having a normal friendship with Medaka, or a romantic relationship with Emukae?
Your kinda entirely missing the point, color would be a more logical example there is no right and logical choice for the most part it's a combination of factors. Fact of the matter is there's a few thousand stimuli that determine a persons each individual behaviour some are simple with obvious significant effect in which certain key stimuli can be infered as a factor others are not, to say we understand love to the degree your talking about is fallacious at best. We still understand a very small amount of the human brain, we may be approaching the amount of ram required and rough processing speed to reproduce a human brains functions but we're still very far from understanding it.

We have a rough understanding, but our very sentience itself affects the standard instinctual to some degree, which love encompasses. Your talking in definitive answers when the what we're talking about doesn't have one so I take offense to what your saying as your talking bull. I don't know how much you understand about the subject, but your conclusions are sentience. I'm actually laughing about incorrect it is such a you would require a ridiculous amount of information on each individual subject matter to come to reasonable response which could be entirely wrong.

Some advice never talk in definitives and facts in these sorts of subjects are professional could see your inaccuracies from a mile off.
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