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Old 2012-07-05, 15:14   Link #541
Touko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I see. While I am not the most astute VN player, I find some of this information rather hard to surmise based on the in-game text. For instance, this 'root' was never properly described, in my view. Am I just bad at gleaning information, or are some of these concepts fleshed out more in related works (like Tsukihime, perhaps? I never completed the game)?
You need to broaden your horizon.

You will never be able to understand a single piece of Nasu's work by itself in isolation. His universe-building and philosophies are cumulative and explained throughout all the games/novels/supplementary materials.

That, and all his works allude to each other. You will miss a lot of those too if you have only been exposed to one or two games.
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Old 2012-07-06, 15:52   Link #542
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
The Root gets more fleshed out in Kara no Kyoukai.

Ufotable has adapted the novel in to seven movies.


I do recommend finishing Tsukihime, just because it's a Type-Moon work and The Far Side of the Moon routes (Akiha, Hisui, Kohaku) are more enjoyably than The Near Side of The Moon routes (Arcueid and Ciel), but that's just my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Touko View Post
You need to broaden your horizon.

You will never be able to understand a single piece of Nasu's work by itself in isolation. His universe-building and philosophies are cumulative and explained throughout all the games/novels/supplementary materials.

That, and all his works allude to each other. You will miss a lot of those too if you have only been exposed to one or two games.
It would appear to be the case! I'll try out Kara no Kyoukai, but we'll see how far I get... my days of anime fandom have definitively withered (I watched and played Fate during my heydey, which is the only reason I would even think to watch Fate/zero in the first place). I like that his work is set up like that, as it reminds me somewhat of my favorite author, Tolkien.
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Old 2012-07-06, 17:24   Link #543
Touko
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If you want to have terms defined and learn about concepts, go for Kara no Kyoukai. Touko Aozaki teaches you about Nasuverse lore every other page.

However, it is a horribly dry read. Tsukihime is definitely more fun.
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Old 2012-07-10, 17:40   Link #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
So you think he was lying? Because he made it seem like Tokiomi would be aware that Sakura would be sacrificed as an 'experiment' for their benefit. I suppose it's too ambiguous to know for sure.
Well we have this little snippet from Tokiomi in Volume 1 of Fate/zero:

Spoiler for Tokiomi:
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Old 2012-07-10, 17:55   Link #545
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Well we have this little snippet from Tokiomi in Volume 1 of Fate/zero:

Spoiler for Tokiomi:
Did the Einsberns actually lost sight of there goal? From there actions it still seemed like they where trying to regain there lost sorcery, Heavens Feel.
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Old 2012-07-10, 18:26   Link #546
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I am making the point more about the Matou than anything else, since you're right, that is the Einzbern's goal, so I dunno why he says that about the Einzbern's beyond maybe talking about bringing in hired help to do their work instead of participating themselves.
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Old 2012-07-11, 17:30   Link #547
Alaya
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
I am making the point more about the Matou than anything else, since you're right, that is the Einzbern's goal, so I dunno why he says that about the Einzbern's beyond maybe talking about bringing in hired help to do their work instead of participating themselves.
I think for a very traditional magus like Tokiomi, reaching the Root is more important that regaining the lost miracle.
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Old 2012-07-11, 17:35   Link #548
mAc Chaos
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I thought they too had lost sight of their original goal and wanted to win just to win.
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Old 2012-07-19, 13:00   Link #549
Cherry_Lover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I'm playing Heaven's Feel for the first time after finishing Fate/Zero. I recall much discussion about how much responsibility Tokiomi holds for Sakura's fate... I'm surprised no one mentioned in spoiler tags or anything about the scene I just played through...? Zouken plainly states he and Tokiomi were using Sakura as an experiment for both their sake's. Is he lying or am I asking questions that will be answered soon?
I'm pretty sure Zouken is just outright lying there. Or, it was retconned when Nasu/Urobuchi realised that he wanted Tokiomi to actually not be an unsympathetic jerk in Zero....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
True, I understood that bit, but from what Zouken said, it would seem Tokiomi was aware of his decision to 'experiment' with Sakura and turn her into a grail for them. Prior, I was under the impression (and it seemed many Fate/Zero viewers in the thread were as well), that while he knew her life wouldn't be easy, he didn't understand she would be made into a sacrifice/tortured... but based on what Zouken said this doesn't seem to be possible.
I see no reason to assume Zouken is actually telling the truth, though, given that we know Tokiomi did not give Sakura away to be used as an experiment. It's not like Zouken has any issue with lying for his own benefit, or even just for the hell of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
To add to this.

Zouken probably isn't even aware that what he is saying is wrong because
Spoiler for Heavens Feel:
(at least if I remember correctly, it has been some time since I played Heavens Feel)
What's so wrong with just assuming that he's outright lying? Zouken is not an honourable person, and nor is he someone like Kotomine, who uses the truth to make his trolling more fun.

He has nothing to lose from lying there, and it makes him sound a little more like a proper magus (and, thus, someone Shirou can trust to be being honest about his motives for killing Sakura). Essentially, he's saying that Tokiomi (who Rin very much looks up to) was willing to sacrifice his daughter for their purpose, so he isn't all that bad himself and, thus, can be trusted.

Remember, he's trying to trick Shirou into trusting him enough to attempt to murder his own girlfriend. The whole conversation is full of lies (he sure as hell doesn't want Shirou to actually succeed in killing her, and he's not asking him to do so because of the danger she poses to other people), so why not that specific part of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Well we have this little snippet from Tokiomi in Volume 1 of Fate/zero:

Spoiler for Tokiomi:
Well, all that proves is that he's an idiot.

It's pretty explicit elsewhere in Zero that he was acting in what he felt were Sakura's best interests, and that simply doesn't fit with what Zouken said in HF.
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