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Old 2012-07-06, 21:23   Link #9921
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
I refer to an authoritative source

Source - the tragedy "Mozart and Salieri" (1830) Alexander Pushkin (1799-1837). Word of Salieri (scene 1):
To art I made out of facility,
And facile I became: my fingers gained
A dry obedient dexterity,
My ear reliability. I deadened
The sounds, dissected music like a corpse,
Proved harmony by algebra. And then,
Then only did I dare, with all my lore,
Yield to the bliss of my creative fancy.
I started to compose, but quietly,
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/push...eksandr/p98mo/
Ironically: the futile attempt to judge the artistic creation, based only on a rational beginning, excluding the feelings, the unconscious, etc.
While your source might be historically respected, it cannot be called authoritative. There are many schools of art, and the school emphasizing emotional responses which you have cited here is specifically the school of romanticism, popular amongst the artists/intellectuals of Europe in the 18th/19th centuries. While I myself am hardly interested in puffed-up academic studies which aren't immediately accessible to mass/general people, if you were to actually place Nishio's writings into some school of art in particular, it would be better to interpret them from the perspective of post-modernism.

Quote:
Why?
I agree with the first part and disagree with the second.
There is Occam's razor. Do not invent unnecessary entities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
Emukae - then an extra essence. This is an artificial construct.
Zen love to Medaka. Medaka love to Zen. End.
The principle of least action.
Heh. The "Occam's razor" part you have forgotten here is that Medaka actually doesn't love Zenkichi. Not in any sense that she thinks he is a "special" person, and not in any sense that she feels that they are bound together. If Medaka doesn't in the end carry any special feelings for Zenkichi, then why should they actually end up together?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Your kinda entirely missing the point, color would be a more logical example there is no right and logical choice for the most part it's a combination of factors. Fact of the matter is there's a few thousand stimuli that determine a persons each individual behaviour some are simple with obvious significant effect in which certain key stimuli can be infered as a factor others are not, to say we understand love to the degree your talking about is fallacious at best. We still understand a very small amount of the human brain, we may be approaching the amount of ram required and rough processing speed to reproduce a human brains functions but we're still very far from understanding it.

We have a rough understanding, but our very sentience itself affects the standard instinctual to some degree, which love encompasses. Your talking in definitive answers when the what we're talking about doesn't have one so I take offense to what your saying as your talking bull. I don't know how much you understand about the subject, but your conclusions are sentience. I'm actually laughing about incorrect it is such a you would require a ridiculous amount of information on each individual subject matter to come to reasonable response which could be entirely wrong.

Some advice never talk in definitives and facts in these sorts of subjects are professional could see your inaccuracies from a mile off.
That's kind of irrelevant. Obviously it is true that no single human or computer currently possesses the capacity to completely analyse things like "love" (or most other aspects of personality) in a mechanical manner. I'm not talking about something complicated like predicting all the microscopic processes through which a person comes to experience a feeling of "love" towards other people, though. I'm just talking about the possible causes which would form the root basis of that happening. I.e. Why does Zenkichi love Medaka? 1. Sexual attraction? 2. Emotional attachment? 3. Intellectual agreement? etc. etc. There might be one or two or hell maybe even three main factors/causes ( lol), but so long as you can describe/understand all of them, you have a rational understanding.

On a more abstract level, there are tons of fields like Thermodynamics which studies the macroscopic behaviour of some sort of system, and this sort of approach is sufficient to begin to rationalize any sort of system of incomplete information. Macroeconomics, Social Psychology, and etc. countless other disciplines all exist as examples of a scientific/logical methodology which deals with imperfect degrees of information. As a matter of fact, macroscopic judgements based on incomplete information is a model for how people generally make interpretations about everything throughout their everyday living. Rational understanding does not have anything in particular to do with "perfect" information; as a matter of fact, "perfect" understanding being an impossible concept anyway, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a "rough" understanding, just so long as it is accurate.
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Old 2012-07-06, 22:42   Link #9922
ccie20012
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I say only one. Let's wait for chapter 154. Most likely 154. If Medaka say - "I love you Zen", then your arguments are worthless. Not the experimentally observed fact. It does not matter why people love each other. What is important is the fact - or the like or not.
I do not know why you have decided that Medaka does not like Zen. We will judge the experiment.
Phenomenon or is observed or not. The rest is demagoguery and scholasticism.

Plus.

I want to reiterate, you are in captivity mechanistic views. What can we fully explain the behavior of the system, if you know the initial conditions and the equation of motion. So it was in classical physics of the 19th century.
But.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
You can not explain why it works.
But it works.
No matter physics give the interpretation of this equation.
We know only one thing there are no hidden variables, just the way nature is.

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-06 at 23:03.
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Old 2012-07-07, 00:41   Link #9923
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The naive idea of "fate" or "special" individuals, however, is almost certainly the concept which this manga was specifically conceived of to criticise.
That's kinda a BS concept though. People might be insignificant little specks, but to say that everyone is equal is just as equally BS as saying everyone/people are special. If your close family member, say sister/mother/dad was drowning and some random unrelated person was drowning and you could only save one, you'd probably save your family member (unless you really hate them). Hence people are special to one another. They might not be 'absolute' special (unlike Medaka) but who the hell can measure absolutes anyway.

Plus saying Medaka thinks Zen is a totally ordinary person who isn't special in anyway while saying she also believes he is the only person who can catch up to her is kinda wtf. Anyone who can catch up to Medaka is already not an ordinary person
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Old 2012-07-07, 00:41   Link #9924
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
I say only one. Let's wait for chapter 154. Most likely 154. If Medaka say - "I love you Zen", then your arguments are worthless. Not the experimentally observed fact. It does not matter why people love each other. What is important is the fact - or the like or not.
I do not know why you have decided that Medaka does not like Zen. We will judge the experiment.
Phenomenon or is observed or not. The rest is demagoguery and scholasticism.
I am perfectly willing to settle on this "experiment". Let us wait to see what Medaka says. It's notable to me that as far as I remember Medaka has never herself spoken of "loving" somebody.

Quote:
Plus.

I want to reiterate, you are in captivity mechanistic views. What can we fully explain the behavior of the system, if you know the initial conditions and the equation of motion. So it was in classical physics of the 19th century.
But.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
You can not explain why it works.
But it works.
No matter physics give the interpretation of this equation.
We know only one thing there are no hidden variables, just the way nature is.
It's funny that you keep bringing this up because I actually spent two years as an undergrad student majoring in Physics. I am perfectly familiar with the implications quantum physics carries towards determinism.

However, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle which you're mentioning actually does have a fully rational explanation. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is basically a statement of a limitation we humans have in being able to simultaneously determine the location and momentum of a particle. However, the reason we face this limitation is precisely a result of the method we're forced to use to obtain any particle's location and momentum.

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle arises from the fundamental dual wave-particle nature of matter. While it's unnoticeable at the macro scales of human perception, the truth is that actually, all matter behaves like a wave. At the scales of quantum physics this wave nature of matter pretty much completely takes over; so that unlike the concept in classical physics whereby all particles can be characterized by a position and momentum, it is difficult to speak of waves having a "position" or "momentum" in the first place.

Basically, this is where Heisenberg's uncertainty principle arises from: for a wave (particle), "momentum" is measured by the wave's energy (i.e. its amplitude). However, because individual "waves" are pretty much just an infinite oscillation, it pretty much does not make sense to even talk about waves having a "position". The only thing which you actually can do to accordingly reduce waves into some sort of localized "position", is to add multiple waves together into what is known as a "wave packet". When you add multiple waves together, the wave amplitudes build up on each other to create peaks where they are all "in phase", and stretches of zero amplitude, where their amplitudes have all cancelled out each other. So in this kind of scenario, I suppose it becomes sort of possible to say that the waves (particles) have "position" only along the points of the wave where it does not have zero amplitude.

The more waves you add together, the more localized the packet; therefore, accordingly, the more "fixed" the wave particles' positions. However, if a wave packet is the result of many waves added together, then the wave packet's amplitude no longer reflects any specific wave/particle's individual energy. That is to say, the more waves you add together to localize their positions, the less knowledge you are able to retain about any individual wave's momentum/energy. It's a direct and inescapable trade off.

The equation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle basically states the limits of this trade off: i.e. for however much a you localize a wave (particle)'s period, you lose this much information regarding its amplitude. None of that really reflects any inherent parameter of the wave/particle itself; in the end it's really pretty much just a statement about the boundaries of our imperfect human knowledge. In the end Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is just a natural consequence of our unnatural attempt to apply the concept of "position" to something without any position in the first place. For the record, the mathematical basis for this is pretty much extremely straightforward/logical. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is hardly an example of a fact of science which "just works" or is irrational; the reason it seems to imply an irrational characteristic of reality is because it's the result of trying to apply an irrational standard (particle-like parameters) onto something which doesn't possess them (waves) in the first place.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-07-08 at 12:13.
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Old 2012-07-07, 01:18   Link #9925
17Sevens
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I... I think I learned something.
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Old 2012-07-07, 02:24   Link #9926
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I am perfectly willing to settle on this "experiment". Let us wait to see what Medaka says. It's notable to me that as far as I remember Medaka has never herself spoken of "loving" somebody.



It's funny that you keep bringing this up because I actually spent two years as an undergrad student majoring in Physics. I am perfectly familiar with the implications quantum physics carries towards determinism.

However, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle which you're mentioning actually does have a fully rational explanation. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is basically a statement of a limitation we humans have in being able to simultaneously determine the location and momentum of a particle. However, the reason we face this limitation is precisely a result of the method we're forced to use to obtain any particle's location and momentum.

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle arises from the fundamental dual wave-particle nature of matter. While it's unnoticeable at the macro scales of human perception, the truth is that actually, all matter behaves like a wave. At the scales of quantum physics this wave nature of matter pretty much completely takes over; so that unlike the concept in classical physics whereby all particles can be characterized by a position and momentum, it is difficult to speak of waves having a "position" or "momentum" in the first place.

Basically, this is where Heisenberg's uncertainty principle arises from: for a wave (particle), "momentum" is measured by the wave's energy (i.e. its amplitude). However, because individual "waves" are pretty much just an infinite oscillation, it pretty much does not make sense to even talk about waves having a "position". The only thing which you actually can do to accordingly reduce waves into some sort of localized "position", is to add multiple waves together into what is known as a "wave packet". When you add multiple waves together, the wave amplitudes build up on each other to create peaks where they are all "in phase", and stretches of zero amplitude, where their amplitudes have all cancelled out each other. So in this kind of scenario, I suppose it becomes sort of possible to say that the waves (particles) have "position" only along the points of the line where the wave does not have zero amplitude.

The more waves you add together, the more localized the packet; therefore, accordingly, the more "fixed" the wave particles' positions. However, if a wave packet is the result of many waves added together, then the wave packet's amplitude no longer reflects any specific wave/particle's individual energy. That is to say, the more waves you add together to localize their positions, the less knowledge you are able to retain about any individual wave's momentum/energy. It's a direct and inescapable trade off.

The equation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle basically states the limits of this trade off: i.e. for however much a you localize a wave (particle)'s period, you lose this much information regarding its amplitude. None of that really reflects any inherent parameter of the wave/particle itself; in the end it's really pretty much just a statement about the boundaries of our imperfect human knowledge. In the end Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is just a natural consequence of our unnatural attempt to apply the concept of "position" to something without any position in the first place. For the record, the mathematical basis for this is pretty much extremely straightforward/logical. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is hardly an example of a fact of science which "just works" or is irrational; the reason it seems to imply an irrational characteristic of reality is because it's the result of trying to apply an irrational standard (particle-like parameters) onto something which doesn't possess them (waves) in the first place.
Fascinating, you realising there's a dozen other examples like this that we're pretty far from understanding. I know this if you have reasonable understanding of quantum physics etc then you know this. I'm not going to state them because it's pointless. This isn't a physics forum.

Fact of the matter is in regards to this, while there may be a system when there's a lot of data incomplete you cannot state that your results are accurate for all scenario's and regards to something like love where there's some 6 billion with a magnitude more variages it's practically worthless.

So yes your wrong, it's a worthless discussion and it's quite laughable you brought it up. The thing that annoys me most in regards to this sort of crap is when people who gain some mild amount of scientific knowledge, forget basic scientific principles and come up with some bullshit results and whats worse try persuade the informed. That shit can get dangerous, because of a persons callousness.
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Old 2012-07-07, 02:31   Link #9927
Kaisos Erranon
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And now people are using abstract physics to try and justify a Zenkichi and Emukae pairing. Will wonders never cease?
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Old 2012-07-07, 02:50   Link #9928
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And now people are using abstract physics to try and justify a Zenkichi and Emukae pairing. Will wonders never cease?
I know right my reaction to this topic. WTF is this shit?
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Old 2012-07-07, 03:27   Link #9929
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Fascinating, you realising there's a dozen other examples like this that we're pretty far from understanding. I know this if you have reasonable understanding of quantum physics etc then you know this. I'm not going to state them because it's pointless. This isn't a physics forum.

Fact of the matter is in regards to this, while there may be a system when there's a lot of data incomplete you cannot state that your results are accurate for all scenario's and regards to something like love where there's some 6 billion with a magnitude more variages it's practically worthless.

So yes your wrong, it's a worthless discussion and it's quite laughable you brought it up. The thing that annoys me most in regards to this sort of crap is when people who gain some mild amount of scientific knowledge, forget basic scientific principles and come up with some bullshit results and whats worse try persuade the informed. That shit can get dangerous, because of a persons callousness.
The hell are you talking about? While it's true that in real life it would be irresponsible to make assumptions based on incomplete data as a matter of fictional storytelling it should be a basic assumption that the author will provide enough information to achieve a rational understanding of a character. That is why there is such a thing as character background and development. The entire point of a story is to be understandable on some level to the audience. A large part of that is character motivations, such as "why does one major character love another major character". This random tangential bullshit about "oh, it's impossible to ever rationally describe why someone would fall in love with someone else" is completely irrelevant and ridiculous. Yes, it actually is possible for people to explain why they love another person. That's why words exist. To communicate thoughts and human experiences. You can do it in real life, and you can most certainly do it in a story.

Are you actually going to argue that it is pointless or impossible for a writer to explain (through their story) why and how one of their characters came to love another? Do you seriously have trouble comprehending this idea? It doesn't take "thousands of factors" or "billions of possibilities", the author only has to show one possibility, the actual possibility which shows up in the story. Hundreds of fictional characters have their emotions and love towards other characters developed and rationally communicated to an audience in stories every day, it is complete delusion to say "lol nope, you can't explain love, it's just totally irrational". The bullshit you've brought up twice now is completely irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And now people are using abstract physics to try and justify a Zenkichi and Emukae pairing. Will wonders never cease?
My explanation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle hardly has anything to do with my arguments. ccie20012 was the one who brought up the concept, repeatedly. Try to actually follow the conversation: ccie20012 was trying to say that "hey! Even science is irrational" or "According to some 18th century poet, art is about emotion" in order to criticise the fundamental concept of using a rational/analytical approach to interpreting Medaka Box's story/characters.
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Old 2012-07-07, 03:40   Link #9930
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The hell are you talking about? While it's true that in real life it would be irresponsible to make assumptions based on incomplete data as a matter of fictional storytelling it should be a basic assumption that the author will provide enough information to achieve a rational understanding of a character. That is why there is such a thing as character background and development. The entire point of a story is to be understandable on some level to the audience. A large part of that is character motivations, such as "why does one major character love another major character". This random tangential bullshit about "oh, it's impossible to ever rationally describe why someone would fall in love with someone else" is completely irrelevant and ridiculous. Yes, it actually is possible for people to explain why they love another person. That's why words exist. To communicate thoughts and human experiences. You can do it in real life, and you can most certainly do it in a story.

Are you actually going to argue that it is pointless or impossible for a writer to explain (through their story) why and how one of their characters came to love another? Do you seriously have trouble comprehending this idea? It doesn't take "thousands of factors" or "billions of possibilities", the author only has to show one possibility, the actual possibility which shows up in the story. Hundreds of fictional characters have their emotions and love towards other characters developed and rationally communicated to an audience in stories every day, it is complete delusion to say "lol nope, you can't explain love, it's just totally irrational". The bullshit you've brought up twice now is completely irrelevant.


No we're working under the assumption that the average person in will not neccessarily be able to explain the reason, they fell in love. This is fact. They may even fall in love irrationally based on the amount of data, we have. The author could use this concept in the story.

This isn't quantum physics, it's actually quite logical in itself as some who has actually been in love will tell you, maybe not all but some.

The fact this concept is incomprehensible to you shows a profound lack of understandings about human beings.

It's not impossible for the author to use this concept and it won't neccesarily be bad writing for him to do it, it's simply a matter of execution.

And yet somehow you came with some crap about all love being factual and provable.
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Old 2012-07-07, 04:04   Link #9931
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
No we're working under the assumption that the average person in will not neccessarily be able to explain the reason, they fell in love. This is fact. They may even fall in love irrationally based on the amount of data, we have. The author could use this concept in the story.

This isn't quantum physics, it's actually quite logical in itself as some who has actually been in love will tell you, maybe not all but some.

The fact this concept is incomprehensible to you shows a profound lack of understandings about human beings.

It's not impossible for the author to use this concept and it won't neccesarily be bad writing for him to do it, it's simply a matter of execution.

And yet somehow you came with some crap about all love being factual and provable.
It doesn't matter if the person themself can't or won't explain why they're in love with somebody. If it's a fictional story where you're expected to understand the character's motivations, then the author will give us the audience a rational explanation for that character's love to somebody. Including, yes, your idea that sometimes people just fall in love irrationally and don't think about it; the point is that the author has to actually explain that this is what he's doing to the audience.

Do you think that Nishio has purposely indicated that Zenkichi's just being irrationally in love with Medaka right now? Has he actually addressed the question of why he's in love with her? Or do you think this is just one of several possibilities which Nishio might use when he finally gets around to explaining Zenkichi's love for Medaka later.

In any case, I didn't say that love was factual or provable. I said that love is completely explainable from a rational perspective. Rational == logic. All this meant is that if you actually sat down and thought about it, you would be able to come up with logical reasons for why you (or anybody) were in love with anybody. Some of these logical explanations might include any basic knowledge you might have of evolutionary biology or psychology, or they might include ways in which you think that love makes sense due to the person's social situation or personality. You might come up with any number of possible explanations. In any case, you would go through a logical process of selecting the explanations/factors which actually seem most likely, and at the end of it you would be able to rationally say "this is why I believe this person loves that person".

EXAMPLE: "After logical consideration, this is why I believe Zenkichi loves Medaka. blah blah blah." Not an unreasonable activity at all to discuss Medaka Box as a manga.
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Old 2012-07-07, 04:22   Link #9932
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It doesn't matter if the person themself can't or won't explain why they're in love with somebody. If it's a fictional story where you're expected to understand the character's motivations, then the author will give us the audience a rational explanation for that character's love to somebody. Including, yes, your idea that sometimes people just fall in love irrationally and don't think about it; the point is that the author has to actually explain that this is what he's doing to the audience.

Do you think that Nishio has purposely indicated that Zenkichi's just being irrationally in love with Medaka right now? Has he actually addressed the question of why he's in love with her? Or do you think this is just one of several possibilities which Nishio might use when he finally gets around to explaining Zenkichi's love for Medaka later.

In any case, I didn't say that love was factual or provable. I said that love is completely explainable from a rational perspective. Rational == logic. All this meant is that if you actually sat down and thought about it, you would be able to come up with logical reasons for why you (or anybody) were in love with anybody. Some of these logical explanations might include any basic knowledge you might have of evolutionary biology or psychology, or they might include ways in which you think that love makes sense due to the person's social situation or personality. You might come up with any number of possible explanations. In any case, you would go through a logical process of selecting the explanations/factors which actually seem most likely, and at the end of it you would be able to rationally say "this is why I believe this person loves that person".

EXAMPLE: "After logical consideration, this is why I believe Zenkichi loves Medaka. blah blah blah." Not an unreasonable activity at all to discuss Medaka Box as a manga.
Again he doesn't have to explain it, you want him to but it doesn't have, it's actually more realistic if Zenkichi himself doesn't know that the reason isn't stated unless you want the narrator to explain or some other character, which would really be quite terrible. Simply lampshading how hard it is for the person to understand is enough as that is how it occurs in some instances in real life.

Sometimes all the logical reasons point you toward someone but you want someone else it happens. Story telling isn't about understanding characters it's about creating characters and just like in real life you won't perfectly understand someone typically good characters are the same while still being reasonable understandable unless they serve a different purpose.
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Old 2012-07-07, 04:24   Link #9933
Vigo
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WTF is going on in this thread? Is this a Hamlet lesson?
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Old 2012-07-07, 06:46   Link #9934
novalysis
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I wonder what would happen if Nisio ever learnt of this bizzare conversation, and somehow saw all it's details.

One might think that he may start teasing quantum physics next.
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Old 2012-07-07, 06:50   Link #9935
Soji
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^ *Just a plan* or something like this.
But honestly ,I thought Nisho was pretty clear about medaka and zen and how they feel about eachother. Come on,Medaka reaction made the point pretty clear. Now whatever she answer yes or not it's another story.
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Old 2012-07-07, 16:29   Link #9936
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Can't believe I'm saying this(since we're usually on opposite spectrums), but I pretty much agree with Sol Falling on this matter.

Mostly because of the fact: how can I feel for the main romance, when Medaka's reasonings and love come from unexplained fear of no-one catching up to her and her ending-up being alone, and Zenkichi's aren't even touched upon at all with a decent explanation?

How can me, as a reader, like sloppy story-telling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
Why did Zenkichi, at 2 years old, decide that he would always chase after Medaka? How did Zenkichi, at 2 years old, become possessed by a "love" that would even lead him to committing seppuku to reject other girls in the future? Has there ever actually been any rational basis for Zenkichi's feelings? If this question isn't answered, Zenkichi's interest in Medaka will always seem to me to be irredeemably shallow.
His interest in Medaka to me seems as ethereal as the air around us. Even when It seemed Nishio was going to anwser us as to why Zenkichi posses such an unhealthy obsession for Medaka(don't even say their relationship is healthy, he pretty much lives only to catch-up to her. Something the Not-Equal arc promised to fix, but didn't), he expertly dodges the question and gives no actual explanation at all, the only thing he did is deny explanations. Even when Zenkichi rejected Emukae, all he had to say was an absolute declarative statement that he'll always love Medaka.

And the question persists: why does he love Medaka beyond death and rebirth?

There is definitely something awry in Nishio's head. This kind of lop-sided story-telling is not his style, he built up Kumagawa since the start. Either he failed miserably as a story-teller for this romance, or he's planning something.

I mean, the only explanation I can currently conjure as to why Zenkichi loves Medaka, is that's the only person he knows how to love because, for all his childhood, he was bound to Medaka. She wouldn't let his fricking mother take him home, for christ's sake. What would happen when anyone else tried to bond with child Zenkichi? Would Medaka scare them away too because she would be scared of losing him and being alone? That's just one reason, there could be millions of others. Maybe he just wants to groper her breasts. And that's the point. Nishio just left a gaping hole there, he never developed or gave a reason, he just denied reasons in Zenkichi's mind, and expertly dodged the trick question.

Nishio definitely did not write this as a romance you'd like.

He gave far better development to Emukae's feelings, and he even alluded that Zenkichi ''liked her''(as in the way he likes plenty of his friends) because of her personality.

That would at least be a reason to build something. He dosen't give anything for Medaka in Zen's mind, in his mind he just loves her, even if the Flask Plan could make people exactly like her. No explanation needed? And now he's establishing such a blatent dichotomy between the purity and honesty of Emukae's love in comparison to the gritty, undeveloped, unhealthy love Medaka and Zenkichi have for each other, I can't believe I didn't catch this before. Nishio is definitely not writting this by accident. It can't be an accident that he made EmukaexZenkichi much more developed/likeable/believable to the audience reading his manga than ZenkichixMedaka. I bet he dosen't want us to feel for this romance.

So yes, I definitely believe something's up. Before, I really did this this was just bad writting, but now I see there's definitely something building up.

Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-07-07 at 17:19.
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Old 2012-07-07, 19:35   Link #9937
ziggi92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Why did Zenkichi, at 2 years old, decide that he would always chase after Medaka? How did Zenkichi, at 2 years old, become possessed by a "love" that would even lead him to committing seppuku to reject other girls in the future? Has there ever actually been any rational basis for Zenkichi's feelings? If this question isn't answered, Zenkichi's interest in Medaka will always seem to me to be irredeemably shallow.
I do not think he was possessed By LOVE as we can see here:
Spoiler for Note possessed page 1:



Spoiler for no special page 2:

If we read this page 2 which over here:
She starts talking about how nobody are special or cannot keep up with her but what does Zenkichi do he says for bottom of his heart: Don't cry Medaka Chan I Don't want you to see you cry which is Irony since everytime in whole Manga where Medaka Cries is because of something happens to Zenkichi just like what Ajimu told.

Even as 2 year old he can see clear different between him and Medaka just by seeing her finish all those games with out getting tried but instead of being jealous or angry he sees the best side of Her that why is He maybe gave her the most impossible task in world to make everybody happy since she clearly got talent do the task maybe what Zenkichi thought was just naive but common he was just normal 2 year old child.

Reason why I think he want chase her is so that she would not be lonely clear as that just by looking at reaction to her tears in that page 2

but also she is his first and only friend just look at what Zenkichi was doing before he meet here he was surround toys since she was lonely just like him so though he should take another path to become her equal/friend so that she would not be lonely again just like what said at page 2 over there which I posted she says: nobody in this world is special I'm alone.


You also says:

Quote:

basis of all of Medaka's previous "no one is special" statements regarding people, and confirmed that the way that Medaka has always viewed Zenkichi all along is as being completely "ordinary".

Medaka doesn't think Zenkichi is special, but she's firmly decided that she doesn't want to be alone. (From a human perspective, this is completely natural).


The existential/nihilistic perspective of the universe Medaka is moving towards (i.e. "no one is special") is the most simple and natural conclusion that any logical mind will eventually come to. I have a bias towards it, I believe Nishio shares a bias towards it.
Do you not find strange that reason why Medaka think that Zenkichi is not special is because he could not keep up with when they were playing together and got himself Sick but also I think reason why she does think there is none special is because of the Mystery Director.

Here what Mystery Director says about relationship between Zenkichi and Medaka:

Let Her be that way that child will learn that there aren't any special people in this world

It is no wonder why Medaka think like this because she can do everything but also her close ones/adults tell her that their are no special in the world.

but also to what Kumagawa said to her at Hospital:

People are born for no reason the unrelated because there is no goal to life there's no point to being alive.

When you read here chapter 51 about How Medaka meet Zenkichi she consider herself "adult" but Zenkichi as child.

This what she says:
Now that I'm older and know better I did nothing more than steal a toy from a child.
since that was her only way she knew how to introduce herself by showing of her skills.

Here says about reason why she thought Zenkichi was special:
Even with her experience with various people due to her circumstances It was her first time meeting someone like him so she of course thought that Zenkichi was special person who could meet her standards. meaning being like her just like I said because Zenkichi got sick he didn't meet her standards meaning that he was not special.

but before that she propose to Zenkichi and he said no but reason of proposal was because she thought he saved her she says: I'm not exaggerating but I really thought I was saved so I could not go on without putting my feelings into my words. but I think she was asking for Him to be her friend.


It will be interesting to say what happens next


Source:
Chapter 53,146 and 153
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Old 2012-07-07, 21:23   Link #9938
Kaisos Erranon
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Okay guys, listen.
Emukae is not going to win and you need to accept this now before you get even more upset later.
It really doesn't even matter why Zenkichi loves Medaka; he does, he'll never stop, and that's the end of it.
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Old 2012-07-07, 23:17   Link #9939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post

How can me, as a reader, like sloppy story-telling?
There's a lot more that's wrong with the story than just the romance -_- And yet people seem to harp on it the most
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Old 2012-07-07, 23:26   Link #9940
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To me: they're both hot, so it doesn't matter. *shrug*
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