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Old 2012-07-01, 00:34   Link #321
AuraTwilight
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I don't agree with what you say, sorry but Madoka wasn't a witch in human skin with nowhere to run to and nobody to rely on.

Madoka had a choice and her personality forced her to follow a certain path. As far as it goes she could have continued to live with her family on a rebuild city and enjoy a happy long life with possibly marriage and children.

Kazumi didn't had this choice, she was already a witch with magical powers who came into being with the purpose of filling the shoes of Michiru.
Kazumi also had the choice of killing herself instead of forcing her friends to do it, or even just killing her friends to end the cycle, or...hell, anything.

Just because she can't have a happy ending doesn't mean she can't have the ending she herself chooses. She's not set on a railroad to only one possible outcome.

Your harping on their circumstances isn't relevant because both of them have free will, and they still take the same general methods to handling their situations. If Madoka was in Kazumi's shoes and vice versa, I imagine they'd of made the same choices (and by "same shoes" I mean if Madoka was the witch in human form and Kazumi was the Ultra-God Candidate, since you seem to have utterly ignored this).

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Kazumi was throw into the world under a false premise and the plot droped on her as that facade was twarted by outside parties.
Madoka wasn't thrown into the situation with a false premise? Guess she knew all about how much being a Puella Magi sucked, I guess.

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Kazumi didn't make something to unsettle Airi, neither was she responsible for Kanna's wish and her clone's subsequent revenge that costed her life and those of Satomi, Saki and Mirai.

Michiru did that, she created the Pleiades and forged deep bounds with them, she was their Madoka in the sense they would go to the lenghts of defying the laws of nature to bring her back.

Kazumi is not Michiru, she is herself with her own beliefs, this is why she should not be treated in the same way as the alternate timeline Madokas were.
I'm not sure how any of this contradicts my thesis. Regardless, Kazumi may be her own person, but she still shares the core of Michiru's essence. She's merely shaped accordingly by her experiences. But when she came into this world with no memories, she shared Michiru's personality, tastes in food, and holds her earrings to be important and precious.

To say that Kazumi and Michiru are completely separate, and can't be compared to the variant Madokas, is blatantly false. She's not a perfect clone, but you're going too far in the other direction.

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The heart of this series is to what measure someone can be considered human, this is heavily touched upon at several moments.
I wouldn't call it the "heart". Still, this isn't relevant to what we were talking about. You're going on a tangent.
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Old 2012-07-01, 04:31   Link #322
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

Your harping on their circumstances isn't relevant because both of them have free will, and they still take the same general methods to handling their situations. If Madoka was in Kazumi's shoes and vice versa, I imagine they'd of made the same choices (and by "same shoes" I mean if Madoka was the witch in human form and Kazumi was the Ultra-God Candidate, since you seem to have utterly ignored this).


To say that Kazumi and Michiru are completely separate, and can't be compared to the variant Madokas, is blatantly false. She's not a perfect clone, but you're going too far in the other direction.
Kazumi occupies the same role in the story as Madoka, but she is not Madoka. Distinct characters can play analogous roles, but can still be distinct from one another, and indeed, the fact that Kazumi is noticeably distinct from Madoka is a sign of good writing indeed.

That being said, I would agree that both Madoka and Kazumi would have made the same choices, had their positions been switched. Obviously, the details would likely have differed - as a superficial example, Madoka would definitely be crying more often than Kazumi, but both would have likely came to similar conclusions as to the actions to undertake.

Then again, the Scenarios are indeed distinctly different. The interesting thing is that most of the grim-darkness in Madoka Magica comes from discovering how screwed up the entire Puella Magi system is.

In Kazumi Magica, most readers would have certainly already known of all the "Vanilla" horrors of the Puella Magi system (Soul Extraction, the Witch Cycle, etc), and indeed, the Pleiades Saints themselves are likely aware of most of the horrific details that say, Homura knew concerning the Puella Magi system. What Kazumi Magica does is take it one step further, and show just how much more darker the Madoka Magica world really could be, if we were to pursue some of the features of that system to it's logical conclusion.

The grimness in Kazumi Magica is NOT about the system itself, but how much more messed up the system could be made. From the mass incarceration of Puella Magis, to Grief Seed Manipulation, to body sharing, how some wishes can backfire even more, to what happens if Homura Akemi was an entire team of Puella Magis instead.

The heart of the series is to take some of that darker aspects of the Puella Magi world which we do not see in Madoka Magica, which Kyouko hinted at in the anime, and present it in a story. That is my take on it, and that's why I think that this is even Darker than Madoka Magica itself, since it goes beyond merely Vanilla Witching out, and into fates arguably even worse than becoming a Witch.

If Madoka Magica is about Fates Worse than death, Kazumi Magica is about Fates even worse than those Fates.
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Old 2012-07-01, 14:42   Link #323
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Kazumi occupies the same role in the story as Madoka, but she is not Madoka. Distinct characters can play analogous roles, but can still be distinct from one another, and indeed, the fact that Kazumi is noticeably distinct from Madoka is a sign of good writing indeed.
I'm not disagreeing with you. That's why I called them foils.

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The grimness in Kazumi Magica is NOT about the system itself, but how much more messed up the system could be made. From the mass incarceration of Puella Magis, to Grief Seed Manipulation, to body sharing, how some wishes can backfire even more, to what happens if Homura Akemi was an entire team of Puella Magis instead.
One could argue that this is all just a result of the Witch problem. Personally? I'm not entirely convinced Kazumi's situation is unique. Perhaps rare or uncommon, but I bet the Incubators have seen something incredibly similar before.

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If Madoka Magica is about Fates Worse than death, Kazumi Magica is about Fates even worse than those Fates.
I'm not sure I agree. Personally, I think Madoka has the rougher deal, since if she makes the wrong decision, billions of people die and life on the planet Earth ends. Kazumi, meanwhile, is apparently capable of living normally for atleast several months. Possibly indefinitely. The fact that she can live without being in despair suggests that her tragedy isn't unavoidable, but a result of human error and imperfection. The Pleiades are probably setting their standards too high.
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Old 2012-07-03, 17:44   Link #324
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Honestly, I do not see your point.

You say a girl who had a happy family choosing to live on with it in exchange of a city has the same logic as a witch in human form killing herself and others to spare people of their misery has the same logic.

This is plain wrong in my opinion, Kazumi never had any happiness to sacrifice, her life was a lie penned by the Pleiades to fill the shoes of Michiru Kazusa.

Madoka's life was real, she had a family who craddled her carefully full of love and who she decided to give up in favor of her messiah complex.

It's like comparing a death row inmate to a young soldier going to Iraq, the former is doomed regardless of what he does but the second if jeopardizing his life out of his own choice.

The problem is not free will, it's how you perceive and react to the situation around you.

In this sense Kazumi is far more narrowed than Madoka ever was.

Whichever bomb fell on Madoka's life, she still had her family and the possibility of a long and confortable life to support herself in the future. The entire reason why Madoka always contracted is because she couldn't bear to sacrifice others for her own happiness, she could not keep on living knowing she didn't act because of her limitations.

Kazumi awoke without memories and without family, she supposedly held the support of her friends but we all saw how that turned out.

She was forced into a corner where the only people she had truly know in her short clone life were attempting to kill her because of what she was whereas her own body was running out of control and threatened any person she might have approached in the future.

Whereas Madoka held a world belief that was crushed further and further by an unforgiving reality until she fought it back by using her unfathomable power, Kazumi already had harsh revelations far quicker than Madoka but copped with them without giving up or pressing the haxor button like the former did.

The only thing that really hit her hard was when her friends betrayed her and she discovered she was a witch, it was much more painful than discovering the terrible truth of witches yet she faced that pain and build back her resolution.

The biggest difference you fail to realize is that Kazumi was never a crying damnsel who had an original hope diminished the whole series until the point of deus ex machina, she held her resolution strong the entire story building it back rather quickly every rock the universe threw at her head.

When Mami died, Madoka went Shinji mode and we had an entire episode depicting how wasted her desire to be a magical became. When Sayaka turned into a witch, Madoka was curled in her bed trying to escape from a cruel reality that was revealed to her.

If it wasn't for Kyubey dumping the whole set of information needed for Madoka to make up her wish and save the universe she would have probably given up being a magical girl or would have turned into Gretchen again.

Kazumi never had any of those Shinjiesque moments, when her friends were swallowed she quickly bonded with the Pleiades and shoot the witch trusting herself and others, when Airi kidnapped her and turned into a witch she tried to overcome the situation and later reassured her friends she would not back down from their issues, when the freezer was revealed she still tried to make the best of her situation, with Satomi's betrayal and subsequent revelations she revolted rather than breaking down in tears.

Even then so, when she was away and with nowhere left to go she pulled herself back together and decided to try and settle peace with the Pleiades before Hajiri Kanna kidnapped her.

Madoka's character was more that of an emotionally frail yet highly optimistic person being deconstructed whereas Kazumi's character is that of a stronger but more realistic person.

When you lay their personalities and actions bare they fall respectively into Sagittarius and Ophiuchus by a large number of traits.

MSMM and MSKM always held great symbolism with the stars (every witch of the anime had a celestial object whose name they related to) but the later focused on it far more whereas the former gave the main role to faustian themes.

Before you go ranting that Ophiuchus is not an official sign, please take into account that oriental societies found it perfectly fit as a valid sign for popular culture.

All in all the Zodiac theory adds another layer of depth to into an already symbology heavy series.
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Old 2012-07-04, 00:41   Link #325
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Honestly, I do not see your point.

You say a girl who had a happy family choosing to live on with it in exchange of a city has the same logic as a witch in human form killing herself and others to spare people of their misery has the same logic.

This is plain wrong in my opinion, Kazumi never had any happiness to sacrifice, her life was a lie penned by the Pleiades to fill the shoes of Michiru Kazusa.
The problem I'm posing is that if Kazumi messes up, a few people die. People she cares about, but ultimately nothing that would be spoken about by Magical Girls the next town over or anything.

Madoka, however? She's offered a choice. Either do nothing and watch everyone you love be destroyed, or try to do something and probably kill EVERYONE ON THE PLANET.

By Kyubey's own analysis, Madoka bears a heavier karmic burden than anyone else on the planet. It's why her magic is so ginormous.

Quote:

Whichever bomb fell on Madoka's life, she still had her family and the possibility of a long and confortable life to support herself in the future. The entire reason why Madoka always contracted is because she couldn't bear to sacrifice others for her own happiness, she could not keep on living knowing she didn't act because of her limitations.
What if that bomb is a witch that killed her family?

What if an Oriko-style situation happens and everyone in her school is killed, and she wasn't able to do anything about it?

What if World War 3 breaks out, and Kyubey reminds Madoka that the nukes will launch unless she uses her omnipotent power to do something about it?

Madoka has incredible power, and her personality dictates to her that this gives her incredible responsibility. She keeps rushing to her own demise because she can't tolerate the thought of being able to do something and NOT doing it. It's not that she's not willing to sacrifice others for her happiness, it's that she can't be happy if she's not being as useful as she can be.

This is a girl who basically trades her soul to heal a kitten, and you're offering her the hypothetical opportunity to fix any problem with the world she wants. She ultimately uses this to rewrite the universe to save countless souls in every universe from the beginning to the end of time, but she could've done MORE with it.

And she KNOWS it.

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The only thing that really hit her hard was when her friends betrayed her and she discovered she was a witch, it was much more painful than discovering the terrible truth of witches yet she faced that pain and build back her resolution.
Uh...yeah, with a suicide mission. After learning what she is, Kazumi orchestrates an assisted suicide and burdens her friends with the responsibility of murdering her.

...Wow, Kazumi's actually kind of an asshole when I think of it in those words.

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The biggest difference you fail to realize is that Kazumi was never a crying damnsel who had an original hope diminished the whole series until the point of deus ex machina, she held her resolution strong the entire story building it back rather quickly every rock the universe threw at her head.
...Wow, and you completely miss what I'm saying at all and decide to patronize me about it. I KNOW how they're DIFFERENT, what I'm stressing is their SIMILARITIES and how they make for comparison in markedly different, hard-to-compare circumstances.

Jesus, do you not know what "foil" means? Yes or no?

Quote:
Kazumi never had any of those Shinjiesque moments, when her friends were swallowed she quickly bonded with the Pleiades and shoot the witch trusting herself and others, when Airi kidnapped her and turned into a witch she tried to overcome the situation and later reassured her friends she would not back down from their issues, when the freezer was revealed she still tried to make the best of her situation, with Satomi's betrayal and subsequent revelations she revolted rather than breaking down in tears.
The difference is that Kazumi had the power to change all of those situations. Madoka doesn't, unless she becomes a Magical Girl.

Compare Kazumi instead to the alternate timelines where Madoka has already contracted. These versions of Madoka don't cry or deny reality. They boldly face Walpurgisnacht despite the impossible odds, and she says in her own words that she feels that her decisions up to this day were worth it, even if she fails in her duty.

With that in mind, she and Kazumi are almost exactly alike, REGARDLESS of their environments, backrounds, moral supports, and obstacles. THAT is the point I was making. And you keep harping on the EXTERNAL things that separate them, and not the INTERNAL aspects of their character. YOU'RE the one not understanding MY point.

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Madoka's character was more that of an emotionally frail yet highly optimistic person being deconstructed whereas Kazumi's character is that of a stronger but more realistic person.
I'd disagree. They're both strong, and they're both optimistic. Hell, if we want to bring Michiru into this, Michiru goes Witch just learning about what Witches are, while in every case she does so, Madoka only corrupts due to magic overuse, not emotional burden.

But the fact of the matter is that they both have different circumstances and different assets to how they can overcome these circumstances, so what I'm stressing is the thoughts, emotions, and personality traits that cause them to make the decisions they do. Although their lives and challenges are entirely different, I am positive that they would make the same general decisions and reach the same conclusions if you swapped them out.

If Madoka was the witch-clone with amnesia and only her MG friends to support her, she'd probably make the same decisions.

If Kazumi/Michiru had her memories, family, and human friends, and the potential of being an omnipotent goddess and a friend putting her in an infinite timeloop, she'd probably reach the same epiphanies and conclusions Madoka did.

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When you lay their personalities and actions bare they fall respectively into Sagittarius and Ophiuchus by a large number of traits.
My main problem with your assessment is A) Madoka is extraneous to the story of Kazumi and the Pleaide Saints and is completely removed from their situation, so her symbology should probably be part of a set involving Mami and company, and B) despite what you say, your analysis of the two characters and what sets them apart is primarily about the external forces that move them around regardless of their intentions, and doesn't account for the options open to them and why they end up doing what they do.
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Old 2012-07-04, 12:00   Link #326
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The problem I'm posing is that if Kazumi messes up, a few people die. People she cares about, but ultimately nothing that would be spoken about by Magical Girls the next town over or anything.

Madoka, however? She's offered a choice. Either do nothing and watch everyone you love be destroyed, or try to do something and probably kill EVERYONE ON THE PLANET.

By Kyubey's own analysis, Madoka bears a heavier karmic burden than anyone else on the planet. It's why her magic is so ginormous.



What if that bomb is a witch that killed her family?

What if an Oriko-style situation happens and everyone in her school is killed, and she wasn't able to do anything about it?

What if World War 3 breaks out, and Kyubey reminds Madoka that the nukes will launch unless she uses her omnipotent power to do something about it?

Madoka has incredible power, and her personality dictates to her that this gives her incredible responsibility. She keeps rushing to her own demise because she can't tolerate the thought of being able to do something and NOT doing it. It's not that she's not willing to sacrifice others for her happiness, it's that she can't be happy if she's not being as useful as she can be.

This is a girl who basically trades her soul to heal a kitten, and you're offering her the hypothetical opportunity to fix any problem with the world she wants. She ultimately uses this to rewrite the universe to save countless souls in every universe from the beginning to the end of time, but she could've done MORE with it.

And she KNOWS it.



Uh...yeah, with a suicide mission. After learning what she is, Kazumi orchestrates an assisted suicide and burdens her friends with the responsibility of murdering her.

...Wow, Kazumi's actually kind of an asshole when I think of it in those words.



...Wow, and you completely miss what I'm saying at all and decide to patronize me about it. I KNOW how they're DIFFERENT, what I'm stressing is their SIMILARITIES and how they make for comparison in markedly different, hard-to-compare circumstances.

Jesus, do you not know what "foil" means? Yes or no?



The difference is that Kazumi had the power to change all of those situations. Madoka doesn't, unless she becomes a Magical Girl.

Compare Kazumi instead to the alternate timelines where Madoka has already contracted. These versions of Madoka don't cry or deny reality. They boldly face Walpurgisnacht despite the impossible odds, and she says in her own words that she feels that her decisions up to this day were worth it, even if she fails in her duty.

With that in mind, she and Kazumi are almost exactly alike, REGARDLESS of their environments, backrounds, moral supports, and obstacles. THAT is the point I was making. And you keep harping on the EXTERNAL things that separate them, and not the INTERNAL aspects of their character. YOU'RE the one not understanding MY point.



I'd disagree. They're both strong, and they're both optimistic. Hell, if we want to bring Michiru into this, Michiru goes Witch just learning about what Witches are, while in every case she does so, Madoka only corrupts due to magic overuse, not emotional burden.

But the fact of the matter is that they both have different circumstances and different assets to how they can overcome these circumstances, so what I'm stressing is the thoughts, emotions, and personality traits that cause them to make the decisions they do. Although their lives and challenges are entirely different, I am positive that they would make the same general decisions and reach the same conclusions if you swapped them out.

If Madoka was the witch-clone with amnesia and only her MG friends to support her, she'd probably make the same decisions.

If Kazumi/Michiru had her memories, family, and human friends, and the potential of being an omnipotent goddess and a friend putting her in an infinite timeloop, she'd probably reach the same epiphanies and conclusions Madoka did.



My main problem with your assessment is A) Madoka is extraneous to the story of Kazumi and the Pleaide Saints and is completely removed from their situation, so her symbology should probably be part of a set involving Mami and company, and B) despite what you say, your analysis of the two characters and what sets them apart is primarily about the external forces that move them around regardless of their intentions, and doesn't account for the options open to them and why they end up doing what they do.
The analysis takes into account the situations they faced and how they emotionally reacted to them.

If you are going for all the possibilities this becomes a pointless argument, if Mami or Sayaka were in Madoka's shoes they would have come to a similar conclusion because they too were good natured and optimistic. The premises of each character are a focal point in the building of their personalities.

You don't understand that this is speculah, that while most of the previous zodiac sign comparisons make perfect sense because they have been openly displayed the last two are yet to materialize because it is just a theory.

I am not saying that Madoka is part of Kazumi Magica, I am saying that is possible for her to make an appearance in the future just as her frame was used for a cameo during magical girl description.

Things like a school shoot out, a witch attacking Madoka's family or World War III breaking out gets into the array of extrapolations (the later bearing the absurd) which do not reflect canon material.

Asking wether Madoka would react the same way Kazumi did if she had been a witch in human form under the Pleiades parenting strays too far from simply looking at Kazumi and Madoka and matching their actions and personalities with Zodiac signs.
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Old 2012-07-04, 15:35   Link #327
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If you are going for all the possibilities this becomes a pointless argument, if Mami or Sayaka were in Madoka's shoes they would have come to a similar conclusion because they too were good natured and optimistic. The premises of each character are a focal point in the building of their personalities.
I'd doubt it. Mami and Sayaka are contrasted by innocuous but selfish desires that are continually their own undoing. Sayaka isn't able to accept what Kyubey has turned her into, so I doubt she has what it takes to sacrifice her existence to erase Witches, and whatnot. Ditto for Mami. Both of them CRACK when they learn what they do.

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You don't understand that this is speculah, that while most of the previous zodiac sign comparisons make perfect sense because they have been openly displayed the last two are yet to materialize because it is just a theory.
I know that this is speculah. How stupid do you think I am?

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I am not saying that Madoka is part of Kazumi Magica, I am saying that is possible for her to make an appearance in the future just as her frame was used for a cameo during magical girl description.
I've never claimed that you were saying she is part of Kazumi Magica. I'm saying that trying to tie her symbology into the Pleiade Saints doesn't really make a whole lot of sense because she has no meaningful connection to them.

Quote:
Things like a school shoot out, a witch attacking Madoka's family or World War III breaking out gets into the array of extrapolations (the later bearing the absurd) which do not reflect canon material.
Well no shit, sherlock. But we know how Madoka is likely to react to them, and the point I was making is that Walpurgisnacht isn't a unique circumstance. In a situation where Madoka concludes that only SHE can save a great number of lives, and that she needs to contract to do it, she will contract. It's such an ingrained part of her personality that I don't think NOT doing so is a realistic option for her, so she's no more "free" than Kazumi is because both of them are chained moreso by their personality traits than any external circumstances around them, such as the bad things happening to their friends.

Quote:
Asking wether Madoka would react the same way Kazumi did if she had been a witch in human form under the Pleiades parenting strays too far from simply looking at Kazumi and Madoka and matching their actions and personalities with Zodiac signs.
The original point I was trying to make was that Kazumi fit everything you were trying to assign to Madoka, so why even involve her at all? She's extraneous baggage in the analysis.
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Old 2012-07-04, 17:28   Link #328
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I'd doubt it. Mami and Sayaka are contrasted by innocuous but selfish desires that are continually their own undoing. Sayaka isn't able to accept what Kyubey has turned her into, so I doubt she has what it takes to sacrifice her existence to erase Witches, and whatnot. Ditto for Mami. Both of them CRACK when they learn what they do.
If they had Madoka's life and were under her same circumstance do you think they wouldn't have the guts to pull what she did?

Sayaka would never relent to put her life on the line for what she believes is righteous.

Mami is only lonely and prone to break because her parents died and she influenced Madoka and Sayaka to enter a doomed life.

If Mami still had her parents and was on Madoka's spot do you really think she would not do what she believes to be her duty?

That's why putting people in another person's shoes doesn't work for this series, the personality of the characters is defined by the events surrouding them.

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I know that this is speculah. How stupid do you think I am?
No offense, but do I need to answer this question?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I've never claimed that you were saying she is part of Kazumi Magica. I'm saying that trying to tie her symbology into the Pleiade Saints doesn't really make a whole lot of sense because she has no meaningful connection to them.
The theory is that such connection will be established in the end of the series thus making Kazumi Magica a prequel.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well no shit, sherlock. But we know how Madoka is likely to react to them, and the point I was making is that Walpurgisnacht isn't a unique circumstance. In a situation where Madoka concludes that only SHE can save a great number of lives, and that she needs to contract to do it, she will contract. It's such an ingrained part of her personality that I don't think NOT doing so is a realistic option for her, so she's no more "free" than Kazumi is because both of them are chained moreso by their personality traits than any external circumstances around them, such as the bad things happening to their friends.
Let me see, Madoka is out of options because she cannot afford being Jesus whereas Kazumi is out of options because her biology is alien and she is prone to random murderous behaviour.

Yeah, they are so totally alike. A psychological imposition to make a choice cannot be compared to being something not human and dangerous, sorry but Madoka could have lived a long life even if it was ridden with guilt but Kazumi is doomed to wander in isolation until she turns into a complete monster and dies fighting oblivious magical girls.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The original point I was trying to make was that Kazumi fit everything you were trying to assign to Madoka, so why even involve her at all? She's extraneous baggage in the analysis.
Nope, I already showed that there are key differences that make Kazumi less prone to Sagittarius and closer to Ophiuchus.

Michiru's actions and traits fall into Sagittarius better and that makes her the fitting Sagittarius of the previous year.

Chronologically she was the first character to appear and Kazumi being the number 13, the 13th zodiac sign since Sagittarius, together with her own events and traits puts her into a position of closing the Zodiac cycle.

Madoka opens a new cycle as the new Sagittarius.
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Old 2012-07-04, 17:55   Link #329
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That's why putting people in another person's shoes doesn't work for this series, the personality of the characters is defined by the events surrouding them.
That's essentially the same as saying that they have no personalities, and are just plot devices. Do you want to go in this direction, really?

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No offense, but do I need to answer this question?
I want you to explain to me how I'm supposed to interpret "You don't understand that we're talking about speculah" without translating that to "I'm calling you stupid."

And if you ARE calling me stupid, then you're being a fucking jackass and should probably stop talking to me before I report you to a mod.

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The theory is that such connection will be established in the end of the series thus making Kazumi Magica a prequel.
It wouldn't matter even if it did because Madoka isn't a relevant character to the events of Kazumi Magica, and she can't possibly be because we know Madoka's story.

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Let me see, Madoka is out of options because she cannot afford being Jesus whereas Kazumi is out of options because her biology is alien and she is prone to random murderous behaviour.
It's a false analogy. They're "out of options" because their personality traits drive them to only one choice of action. Kazumi doesn't HAVE to be a monster prone to random murderous behavior. She can kill herself. She can make sure another Kazumi is never created. She can do so many things that she chooses not to do because her emotions and personality get the better of her.

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Yeah, they are so totally alike. A psychological imposition to make a choice cannot be compared to being something not human and dangerous, sorry but Madoka could have lived a long life even if it was ridden with guilt but Kazumi is doomed to wander in isolation until she turns into a complete monster and dies fighting oblivious magical girls.
Irrelevant. You're conflating their EXTERNAL SITUATIONS with their INTERNAL MENTAL STATES, and that's fallacious. It doesn't MATTER if Madoka has a choice or not, she FEELS AS IF SHE DOESN'T for most of the story. It doesn't matter if Kazumi is a monster because for most of the story SHE HAS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT SHE IS.

Personalities are subjective mental constructs and thus when you are comparing them to each other the only things that matter is what the characters think, feel, and thus choose to do with themselves. The nature of their life obstacles or their external environments are irrelevant so far as it does not impact their decisions and self-image. You continuously both ignore this and refuse to respond to it, repeating your same rhetoric over and over while trying to belittle my opinions and make personal attacks against me.

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Nope, I already showed that there are key differences that make Kazumi less prone to Sagittarius and closer to Ophiuchus.
No, you haven't. You've only done so by using Kazumi's external situation.

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Michiru's actions and traits fall into Sagittarius better and that makes her the fitting Sagittarius of the previous year.

Chronologically she was the first character to appear and Kazumi being the number 13, the 13th zodiac sign since Sagittarius, together with her own events and traits puts her into a position of closing the Zodiac cycle.

Madoka opens a new cycle as the new Sagittarius.
This is better than the line of reasoning you first gave me when I responded to you. I could still pick arguments with it, but it's sufficient.
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Old 2012-07-05, 15:34   Link #330
1337_haxor
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Cool Well...

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's essentially the same as saying that they have no personalities, and are just plot devices. Do you want to go in this direction, really?



I want you to explain to me how I'm supposed to interpret "You don't understand that we're talking about speculah" without translating that to "I'm calling you stupid."

And if you ARE calling me stupid, then you're being a fucking jackass and should probably stop talking to me before I report you to a mod.



It wouldn't matter even if it did because Madoka isn't a relevant character to the events of Kazumi Magica, and she can't possibly be because we know Madoka's story.



It's a false analogy. They're "out of options" because their personality traits drive them to only one choice of action. Kazumi doesn't HAVE to be a monster prone to random murderous behavior. She can kill herself. She can make sure another Kazumi is never created. She can do so many things that she chooses not to do because her emotions and personality get the better of her.



Irrelevant. You're conflating their EXTERNAL SITUATIONS with their INTERNAL MENTAL STATES, and that's fallacious. It doesn't MATTER if Madoka has a choice or not, she FEELS AS IF SHE DOESN'T for most of the story. It doesn't matter if Kazumi is a monster because for most of the story SHE HAS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT SHE IS.

Personalities are subjective mental constructs and thus when you are comparing them to each other the only things that matter is what the characters think, feel, and thus choose to do with themselves. The nature of their life obstacles or their external environments are irrelevant so far as it does not impact their decisions and self-image. You continuously both ignore this and refuse to respond to it, repeating your same rhetoric over and over while trying to belittle my opinions and make personal attacks against me.



No, you haven't. You've only done so by using Kazumi's external situation.



This is better than the line of reasoning you first gave me when I responded to you. I could still pick arguments with it, but it's sufficient.
Have you no sense of humor or am I perhaps sounding persecutory? Anyhow, I don't find it very mature of you to incline I am attacking you.

Personalities and internalization of fictitious characters on a short story is complicated especially with the lack of inner monologues and explicit resolutions displayed in both Madoka and Kazumi.

We can only base any analysis in reflection to the characters' reaction to their faced situations, in that sense is very hard to separate characters from plot device especially given how Urobuchi writes.

Urobuchi writes characters with a purpose, he doesn't consider them as individuals with souls until after his work is finished. In other words, he first creates a role in the story and later fill a character into it (he admitted he names them after his work is written).

Hiramatsu is trying to follow that tone and hence the logic behind MSMM and MSKM can be considered similar.

In that sense considering a character's personality outside the role he fills becomes redundant, even then so I will try to answer your question about inane emotions in the best way possible.

In my opinion Madoka is far more prone to build up painful emotions whereas Kazumi copes with them and gets over it.

Madoka takes every negative event to be somehow connected to her lack of action whereas Kazumi tries much better to reason with the situation.

That is considering Madoka already as a magical girl since Kazumi's personality cannot be dissociated with her already magical condition.

Not that MG Madoka doesn't have courage or lacks strenght to move through hardships and revelations but she becomes increasingly regretful and death seeking.

Kazumi values life, she refuses to let painful repercutions get the best of her and will try to move foward and find a reason to cling on always.

She wasn't going to confront the Pleiades on a suicidal mission, that was Kanna impersonating Kazumi.

We were never shown Kazumi's resolution outside the fact she would not let Kaoru die for her.

Madoka is always keen to find a justification for her exhistance, she wants to bear the pain of those around her and assure their happiness and she breaks down in guilt and despair when that fails.

Kazumi is not like that, she values her exhistance whichever it is and she wants to share her burden with others. She accepts the possibility of a bittersweet or painful life as long as people around her are willing to face the pain and move foward with their lives.

Michiru was more like Madoka, she connected with everyone and tried to be a guiding like for other until she found out the truth and broke under the burden of dooming her friends.

Michiru and Kazumi are different characters, the manga even clearly states that the main difference between 13th and the previous clones was that Kazumi received did not received a direct copy of Michiru's memories and personality.

Michiru being 1st Sagittarius, Kazumi being Ophiuchus (13th sign) and Madoka being the next Sagittarius can be a symbolic representation of the Zodiac cycle in MSKM closing and a new cycle opening in MSMM.

There is also the possibility that Madoka might make a cameo at the end of Kazumi Magica and if Toto and Amy are actually the same black cat it will be awesome.
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Old 2012-07-05, 17:27   Link #331
VampirePaladin
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I find it hard to swallow the idea that Madoka is completely unconnected to the events of Puella Magi Kazumi Magica. Even if we do not see Madoka at all throughout the entire series she is still connected.
Spoiler for Ending of Madoka Magica:
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Old 2012-07-05, 20:07   Link #332
Daniel E.
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A handful of posts have been deleted and I must now ask people to calm down.

Do not turn a simple disagreement into a personal argument.
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Old 2012-07-06, 10:04   Link #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VampirePaladin View Post
Spoiler for Ending of Madoka Magica:
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-07-07, 17:13   Link #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for Madoka Magica ending:
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Old 2012-07-07, 21:49   Link #335
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While that is the case, it doesn't say anything about how Kazumi Magica would play out in a post-Madokami world.
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Old 2012-07-08, 01:35   Link #336
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Except that the plot would probably never occur. A post Madokami world

Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2012-07-08, 08:19   Link #337
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Spoiler:
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Old 2012-07-08, 11:51   Link #338
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I don't know but, things can only go downhill from this point in Kazumi magica.
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Old 2012-07-08, 16:03   Link #339
AuraTwilight
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That's what people said about Madoka Magica.
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Old 2012-07-08, 17:11   Link #340
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Cool Well...

Given that the reason for Michiru's despair was the truth about magical girls becoming witches I think she would survive rather fine.

That of course if they don't pull out a Sayaka on her.

I think that in Madokami's universe Michiru will still be alive whereas Nico will be dead (so that Hajiri never finds the true and freaks out) and Airi will be a new Pleiade (Yuuri would still die because of exhaustion).

Bonus points if Madoka sends them to save Homura from the demon army.
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