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Old 2012-07-08, 19:25   Link #9961
novalysis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

For the record, making Medaka a "normal girl" who is in love/completely depends on Zen but is utterly perfect in every other manner is the worst way you can imagine to "humanize" her character. That isn't a "human" character, that's just a worthless male fantasy.
Which Zenkichi to his credit appreciates and understands at the end of the Not Equal Arc.

But take away Zenkichi's influence, and you'd see Medaka II underneath. Personally, I'd conclude that Medaka is completely dependent on Zenkichi for any semblance of humanity. Nothing else.
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Old 2012-07-08, 19:52   Link #9962
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I like how all your reasons for Kumagawa liking her are the same for Zenkichi, having being implied as such. Hmm, irony I think so. You know where Zenkichi thought she was a wonderful person who intially believed she was born to help others because of how much she helped him... Yeah... I find it a bit strange where you couldn't see the fact Zenkichi had the exact same admiration for Medaka as Kumagawa due to being a normal with nothing in comparison to her which had seemingly everything. In that context he was worse off than Kumagawa in regards to Kumagawa as he wasn't at all special.

They both lack real reasons if you look at it objectively without shipping goggles. But bias comes into play with you and Kumagawa. I wonder why. Anyway not that I care about the this shipping too much but you must admit your being kinda contradictory.
Kumagawa's reasons for loving Medaka can't be superimposed in any manner onto Zenkichi, because they're different characters. Most notably, Kumagawa's love/hate fascination with Medaka's absolute winning personality came from his own position as a Minus, whereas Zenkichi's image of Medaka was based on his idealistic optimism that she existed (not to win, but) to help people.

The problem with saying that Zenkichi loved Medaka for her ability to help people is that eventually Zenkichi rebelled against precisely that aspect of her personality, and even completely tore it away from her. Sure, you can say that that was the reason why Zenkichi loved Medaka as a kid, but on an adult level this no longer applies. Meanwhile, the "adult" motivation which Zenkichi did come to ("I want to grope breasts" :P lol), was eventually discredited during the climax of the 100th Student Council elections. What this leaves us with is that there is no current explanation for Zenkichi's devotion to Medaka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Which Zenkichi to his credit appreciates and understands at the end of the Not Equal Arc.

But take away Zenkichi's influence, and you'd see Medaka II underneath. Personally, I'd conclude that Medaka is completely dependent on Zenkichi for any semblance of humanity. Nothing else.
I do give Zenkichi that credit. I'm not criticizing the way Zenkichi has acted on his love for Medaka at all, I'm just asking for an explanation.

As for your second paragraph, it's precisely because Medaka's humanity is so completely dependent on Zenkichi (she even mentions it in this chapter) why it is so necessary for her to grow independent from him. We've seen, after all, what Medaka's personality is like when she's abandoned her humanity. Medaka Mk. II, who was completely selfish; or Medaka the beast, who is pure rage and destruction. If Medaka's entire humanity is dependent on Zenkichi, then how could she live without being around him? How could she protect herself from destroying other important things if something happened to him? It's precisely because Medaka sees the necessity of these other things that she's decided to become independent of Zenkichi.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Old 2012-07-08, 20:28   Link #9963
ccie20012
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You are deeply subjective. You read, but ignore text of the manga.
"It's precisely because Medaka sees the necessity of these other things that she's decided to become independent of Zenkichi."


1. Zen is the only man whom she thinks. All brain work of Medaka it is Zen. And she remembers Zen in the positive emotions.
She is grateful and pleased him.
No other men in she mind. Where Kumagawa?. It's for her zero. Full zero. He's not in Medaka mind and heart.

2. You do not true (intentionally or not) interpret the reasons of Medaka. She was embarrassed (ashamed) depend on the Zen. This is a clear and common motives for loving people. If my idea is not clear, I will try to explain it.


3. Medaka admits she was wrong. She can do something without the Zen. But it does not like. (!) Do not like it to be without Zen.

I hope to able to convey their thoughts in spite of a lot of mistakes in the language.
Strangely, I get to read much easier.
Sorry.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-08-12 at 19:54.
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Old 2012-07-08, 20:51   Link #9964
evil|plushie
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No one in this manga has any real reasons to love anyone else in the manga. Except for maybe Emukae although even that's highly subjective since she's more 'adoration/idol-worship' than; imo, love.

As for why Zenkichi likes Medaka. Who knows? It's not exactly a new topic, think we've discussed it way before Medaka's confession. Maybe he's actual a mental projection created by Medaka in her need to never be alone and to guide her on the path to being human -_- Or maybe he's been hit by 'childhood friend' syndrome. However, his actions do indicate he does like Medaka.
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Old 2012-07-08, 20:56   Link #9965
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
You are deeply subjective. You read, but ignore text of the manga.
"It's precisely because Medaka sees the necessity of these other things that she's decided to become independent of Zenkichi."


1. Zen is the only man whom she thinks. All brain work of Medaka it is Zen. And she remembers Zen in the positive emotions.
She is grateful and pleased him.
No other men in she mind. Where Kumagawa?. It's for her zero. Full zero. He's not in Medaka mind and heart.

2. You do not true (intentionally or not) interpret the reasons of Medaka. She was embarrassed (ashamed) depend on the Zen. This is a clear and common motives for loving people. If my idea is not clear, I will try to explain it.


3. Medaka admits she was wrong. She can do something without the Zen. But it does not like. (!) Do not like it to be without Zen.

I hope to able to convey their thoughts in spite of a lot of mistakes in the language.
Strangely, I get to read much easier.
Sorry.
The important point is point 3. Medaka has already stated, "by myself, I can do anything." So to say, Medaka does not need Zenkichi. She has no dependence on him.

In this case, there is no reason Medaka has to be with Zen. It is merely a preference or expectation ("I cannot imagine that you will not be there."). If Zenkichi is not with Medaka, she may be sad, but she will be okay with it.

The second thing is that there is no such thing as "love" in Medaka's current discussions. She is thinking of her and Zenkichi's normal relationship. For Medaka and Zenkichi to move to "romance", will be completely on Zenkichi's initiative. For example: although Medaka may not think always of Kumagawa, but she would be okay with marrying him.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-08-12 at 19:53.
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Old 2012-07-08, 21:14   Link #9966
ccie20012
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The important point is point 3. Medaka has already stated, "by myself, I can do anything." So to say, Medaka does not need Zenkichi. She has no dependence on him.
Quote:
But i'm seem to not like doing things by myself
It's wery clear. not like. can but not like. hmmm ... You are forcing Medaka to doing what Medaka not like?
severely

Quote:
no reason Medaka
- hmm ... main reason desire of Medaka of course

" but she would be okay with marrying him." - it's no romantic. I'm think it's only joke.

For example: although Medaka may not think always of Kumagawa, but she would be okay with marrying him - that's just a worthless male fantasy (c)

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-08 at 21:36.
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Old 2012-07-08, 21:33   Link #9967
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
The important point is point 3. Medaka has already stated, "by myself, I can do anything." So to say, Medaka does not need Zenkichi. She has no dependence on him.

It's wery clear. not like. can but not like. hmmm ... You are forcing Medaka to doing what Medaka not like?
severely

- hmm ... main reason desire of Medaka of course

" but she would be okay with marrying him." - it's no romantic. I'm think it's only joke.
"I seem not to like doing things by myself."

So to say, if Medaka did things with other people, even if it's not Zen, Medaka would be okay. There is no need for the person to be Zen.

Medaka has not shown romantic interest to Zenkichi either. Basically, Medaka has not shown romantic interest to anybody. To Medaka, love/romance is not a big deal. She might be okay with Zen, but we already know she would be okay with Kumagawa.

So, the point is? If Zenkichi did not love Medaka romantically, and instead kept his platonic relationship with her, Medaka would have no problems. Except for Zenkichi being in love with her, it is open for her to be with another guy.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2012-07-08, 21:50   Link #9968
ccie20012
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I find it difficult to communicate with you.
It is easier to convince the Pope that there is no Jesus Christ.
I think even if the Zen and Medaka married, even if they show their wedding night, and so on you'll be say "I do not believe it."
We read one and the same text.
"If Zenkichi did not love Medaka romantically" Hmm ... Of course it's after Zen said I love you (Medaka) - will you marry me. Of course for you are not an argument.
I have only one suggestion - write your manga, where the Medaka will love Kumagawa. But not in this universe
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Old 2012-07-08, 22:37   Link #9969
Wolfenstein
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Look, I completely agree on the point that the story has utterly failed to develop/showcase Zenkichi's feelings for Medaka, just leaving a gaping void where an explanation is supposed to be.

But you can't possibly argue that Medaka isn't romantically interested in Zenkichi. You just can't. I agree that her reasons for it are childish delusions of impotence and fear, ones that she can(and I hope she does) overcome, so Zenkichi can finally move on with his life - his life which is not tied to Medaka's every whimsy and cathing up to her - but you can't argue that she regards Zenkichi and Kumagawa with equal standards.

This coming from someone who thinks ZenxMedaka is the worst written romance he's ever seen.
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Old 2012-07-08, 23:32   Link #9970
evil|plushie
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Sol Falling is a very optimistic person. That's all I can say -_-
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Old 2012-07-09, 00:37   Link #9971
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Look, I completely agree on the point that the story has utterly failed to develop/showcase Zenkichi's feelings for Medaka, just leaving a gaping void where an explanation is supposed to be.

But you can't possibly argue that Medaka isn't romantically interested in Zenkichi. You just can't. I agree that her reasons for it are childish delusions of impotence and fear, ones that she can(and I hope she does) overcome, so Zenkichi can finally move on with his life - his life which is not tied to Medaka's every whimsy and cathing up to her - but you can't argue that she regards Zenkichi and Kumagawa with equal standards.

This coming from someone who thinks ZenxMedaka is the worst written romance he's ever seen.
Medaka's own feelings do not matter, because it is specifically those feelings that (as you've mentioned) she's trying to overcome.

Udou Bukiko noted, "So long as [Medaka] values freedom over happiness, [Zenkichi] stands no threat to us."

As a human (Medaka, that is), of course, it is difficult to be completely confident that Medaka will choose freedom over happiness. Changing her mind/direction would make her a pathetic character though, and if Nishio was planning to go that way he wouldn't have even bothered to bring up Medaka's development this chapter about becoming a human who doesn't need to depend on Zenkichi.

I don't mind being seen as "optimistic", lol, but as I noted previously I don't actually bother hoping for things unless there's a realistic chance of them happening.

I fully expect Medaka to stay true to her character development. And I also fully expect, at some point in the future, for Zenkichi's "love" for Medaka to be explored and developed thoroughly.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2012-07-09, 01:21   Link #9972
Mars Mode
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You know I can do my work by myself and it doesnt mean that I will not accept help that comes from my teammates, being able to do something by myself doesnt mean I will do it by myself.

When it comes to Medaka is unfortunate but the posibilitys of she loving someone else after Zenkichi are as of now zero. The only other person whom she may have loved is Miyakonojou but that is already past behind her.

If she is pleased by Zenkichi being by her side let him stay at her side geez. It seems like this argument is the one of a mother being overprotective of her own daugther.

I hope we know why exactly does Zen like Medaka, but at this stage we can safely assume is because the time he has spent with her. As simple as that. We do not need logic neither studys this is a manga, and in the world of manga the chilhood friend is one of the most used cliches.
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Old 2012-07-09, 01:26   Link #9973
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I don't mind being seen as "optimistic", lol, but as I noted previously I don't actually bother hoping for things unless there's a realistic chance of them happening.
Your definition of realistic probably differs from everyone elses.
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Old 2012-07-09, 02:23   Link #9974
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
This coming from someone who thinks ZenxMedaka is the worst written romance he's ever seen.
You need to watch more bad light novel adaptations. That, or Aquarion EVOL.
Actually, don't.
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Old 2012-07-09, 02:59   Link #9975
evil|plushie
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aquarion evol.......*foams at mouth while ranting incoherently* why...dog......wtf....
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Old 2012-07-09, 10:56   Link #9976
ccie20012
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Udou Bukiko its main antagonist in this Arc. 0.0 ... (1) the probability that she will win.
Therefore, all her fears need to predict the opposite sign.
She is afraid of meeting Zen and Medaka - it takes place. Already.
She is afraid of something else - it's all true. Just read her fears - that's the way it is.
Because she must lose.
Another path will not happen (aka a bad end) - it is the law of the genre.

P.S. I'm surprised that people do not like a pair of Zen x Medaka. Strangely, what they expected?
It was obvious after the first chapter.
After 139 chapters - had only to wait.
http://www.mangareader.net/medaka-box/139/11
EVERYTHING IS PLANNED
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Old 2012-07-09, 12:50   Link #9977
Sol Falling
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lol. I might have thought that way too, until Ajimu convinced Medaka to restart the Flask Plan. Any preconceived concepts you have about "the villain has to lose", "the main romance has to happen", etc. that you think not happening is impossible, you should better be prepared that Nishio could contradict completely.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2012-07-09, 13:40   Link #9978
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol. I might have thought that way too, until Ajimu convinced Medaka to restart the Flask Plan.
Was there even any point to this? The only character we've seen that's resulted from that 'new' Flask Plan is Torai and she's so stunningly unimportant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Any preconceived concepts you have about "the villain has to lose", "the main romance has to happen", etc. that you think not happening is impossible, you should better be prepared that Nishio could contradict completely.
No.
I really like Nisio's work and realize that, yes, he has done things that defy genre expectations before. Medaka Box is not one of those things, nor is it intended to be.
Medaka and Zenkichi will get together because the entire manga has been setting up their relationship as "something special" and that's just how these sort of things work... furthermore, getting with Medaka has been Zen's goal for something close to thirty chapters now, and want to see him achieve that. After all the crap he goes through for her sake, he deserves her.
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Old 2012-07-09, 15:34   Link #9979
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol. I might have thought that way too, until Ajimu convinced Medaka to restart the Flask Plan. Any preconceived concepts you have about "the villain has to lose", "the main romance has to happen", etc. that you think not happening is impossible, you should better be prepared that Nishio could contradict completely.
Actually that's kinda a weak point. Typically those tropes occur for very specific reasons, the reason why the villain has to lose was because otherwise the hero is dead, everyone else is dead etc. If the end result isn't endgame the villain winning is in fact quite common. E.g main characters failed to prevent the release of Kishin in Soul eater hell Medusa achieved practically everything she wanted to do and the heroes did jack. Naruto failed to save Sasuke from Orochimaru. Luffy failed to save his brother.

So Aijimu winning doesn't actually break any usual shounen tropes. Hell she wasn't even a standard shounen villain as nothing she achieved was malignant.
If Medaka dies, then you can say, Shounen villain tropes were broken. Otherwise it's still very much following usual shounen tropes. I mean hell noone in this manga has even freaking died. That's like the worse shounen trope to maintain. It removes all tension in these supposed battles.
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Old 2012-07-09, 17:12   Link #9980
ccie20012
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shounen? Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman (c)
This romantic comedy (as promised) + parody + "word game" and the like.
No one died.
Medaka is a girl with whom nothing bad can happen
Just take a beer and read/watch a good school comedy + shounen parody.
Solve puzzles, have fun on a game of words and the like.

I would compare this manga to R + V. In the winning side for Medaka Box. R+V comedy manga has migrated to the stupid battle manga (with real blood, and the like). Medaka Box contrary migrated from the battle manga (probably by design) to the romantic stories. Excellent. This was the main complaint about Medaka Box - where romance?, give more romance.
I am pleased with the last 30 chapters.

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-09 at 17:31.
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