AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Gundam

Notices

View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 39
10 out of 10: Amazing... 6 17.14%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 5 14.29%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 13 37.14%
7 out of 10: Good... 8 22.86%
6 out of 10: Average... 2 5.71%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 1 2.86%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 0 0%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-07-09, 12:31   Link #101
Kaioshin Sama
Banned
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here nor There
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Kaioshin Sama
Ezcelcant just got much more complicated as a character. He still doesn't seem evil, more just horribly misguided because of what happened to his son and the position he's in as the leader of Vagan. I wonder if his desire to breed strong genes for humanities future is so that eventually people will develop a greater resistance to the Mars Rays and be able to actually realize the settlement plan and so that there won't be anymore people like Romy and Lu. If so it's still obviously pretty misguided. Also he puts a lot of faith in himself if he thinks that this particular war is going to be the one that ends all of them.

Still humanity has definitely made progress since the Vagan invasion even if it's dealt with a lot of destruction over the past 70 years. There's no longer a technological decay, the Federation's elitist culture is slowly being replaced by more noble minded people like Algreus, and people are becoming more aware of the truths that they once tried to hide, deny or just plain be ignorant of. Not sure what else Ezelcant could possibly have in store that he feels will cap off his plan, but I have a feeling it's going to be put into place before long as everyone's heading back to the Earth Sphere for what looks to be the start of the final battle.

Anyway I kind of find the fact that Kio looks exactly like Ezelcant's dead son Romy to be a little convenient. I know there's such a thing as the doppleganger phenomenon, but it definitely feels a bit like a plot device to give Kio a way out of that fight more than anything right now.
Kaioshin Sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 12:34   Link #102
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
I wouldn't say Ezelcant is Evil, he's more broken than anything. We only know his plan at the current point in time of the series, but I bet it went through stages. He may have been after revenge at one point, or genuinely trying to lead his people back to Earth but then he lost faith in humanity and came up to the conclusion that the only way to change humanity was through such a radical plan.
The guy admitted Colony Angel and Nora were a Social Darwinian experiment for Project Eden. He had killed Vegan colonies which is probably the reason for Second Moon's overpopulation and push his fellow Vegans to attack Earth Sphere.

Heck that math Flit made in the first episode Ezelcant was probably counting on somebody seeing the pattern. Not targeting Nora's reactor is to see if Diva would stay and face annihilation than abandon the colonists.

He had Gerra Zoi sell MS to Euba and Zalam to see who is stronger an if they'll properly adapt to attacks to Fardain.

Those peace overtures that he denied when he had the EF PM by the balls. He never intended the Vegans to go home on Earth. He is weeding out the weak by sending them to the front lines. Heck he isn't even working on a cure for Mars Rays just let his people die en masse.

Ezelcant is insane, his actions are war crimes. How can you not call him evil? Just because he acted nice to Kio doesn't absolve what he did.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 15:53   Link #103
FlareKnight
User of the "Fast Draw"
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to FlareKnight Send a message via MSN to FlareKnight
Yeah, I'm not really onboard with this "he's not evil" line of thought. Even evil has a past and reasons for why it does what it does. He's not as bad as someone who kills for giggles, but that's not the only definition I have for evil. This guy has screwed up billions of lives and killed god knows how many people through his actions. He may have put the AGE universe right back on the path to constant wars. After all when the Federation started putting weapons down and not developing they got a bloody nose thanks to the Vagans. I doubt they are going to let that happen again and so military development will continue in preparation for the next Ezelcant.

Certainly people can feel bad for the guy losing his kid, but that's where the line is drawn. It's one thing to go through that and another to go on a path where you create war to stop war. He created the Decils, Grodeks, and Flits of the world. He's ruined generations of lives here. The man is a crazy monster who needs to be stopped. He left good intentions behind long ago, now is just paving the road to hell with the blood of innocents.
__________________
FlareKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 16:10   Link #104
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
I don't understand the analogy with the Destiny Plan. The Destiny Plan isn't "Kill the ones who are useless". The idea behind it is to "Have everyone be useful". Big difference.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 16:23   Link #105
Revolutionist
Puppet Master
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I don't understand the analogy with the Destiny Plan. The Destiny Plan isn't "Kill the ones who are useless". The idea behind it is to "Have everyone be useful". Big difference.
Yeah that's why he was preparing to fire the giant laser at Orb, who had just rejected their plan....

Besides his plan wasn't to have everyone be useful, it was to tell people their role in society based on DNA, and those who were found to not be desirable would have been disposed off. You want to be a doctor? oops too bad, Gil says all you can aspire to is a janitor. There go your dreams and aspirations.
__________________
I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark
Revolutionist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 16:29   Link #106
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Social Darwinism (eugenics) + Communism = Destiny Plan
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 16:36   Link #107
SoldierOfDarkness
The Dark Knight
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Ezcelcant just got much more complicated as a character. He still doesn't seem evil, more just horribly misguided because of what happened to his son and the position he's in as the leader of Vagan. I wonder if his desire to breed strong genes for humanities future is so that eventually people will develop a greater resistance to the Mars Rays and be able to actually realize the settlement plan and so that there won't be anymore people like Romy and Lu. If so it's still obviously pretty misguided. Also he puts a lot of faith in himself if he thinks that this particular war is going to be the one that ends all of them.

Still humanity has definitely made progress since the Vagan invasion even if it's dealt with a lot of destruction over the past 70 years. There's no longer a technological decay, the Federation's elitist culture is slowly being replaced by more noble minded people like Algreus, and people are becoming more aware of the truths that they once tried to hide, deny or just plain be ignorant of. Not sure what else Ezelcant could possibly have in store that he feels will cap off his plan, but I have a feeling it's going to be put into place before long as everyone's heading back to the Earth Sphere for what looks to be the start of the final battle.

Anyway I kind of find the fact that Kio looks exactly like Ezelcant's dead son Romy to be a little convenient. I know there's such a thing as the doppleganger phenomenon, but it definitely feels a bit like a plot device to give Kio a way out of that fight more than anything right now.
Well that's where the rumor that the UE were preparing the Federation for super powerful aliens down the road right?

Celestial Being wanted to progress humanity to the next level but no way did it involved gunning down civilians and colonies. Even they had a line they wouldn't dare cross.

Though I think we're all in agreement that Ezcelant is at best a tragic villian who "mentally broke" when his beloved son died.

I mean that's usually how these things go. A guy doesn't just wake up one day and say, "hey I'm going to kill these people" (IE. even the Joker has a tragic past).


Quote:
Certainly people can feel bad for the guy losing his kid, but that's where the line is drawn. It's one thing to go through that and another to go on a path where you create war to stop war. He created the Decils, Grodeks, and Flits of the world. He's ruined generations of lives here. The man is a crazy monster who needs to be stopped. He left good intentions behind long ago, now is just paving the road to hell with the blood of innocents.
There are tons of stories where the villian went through a tragic event that eventually led him down a destructive path.

I don't see how Ezcelant is any different from any of them.
How Kio will deal with it...who knows. It may end up when Kio holds Ezcelant at gunpoint and convinces him to stand down and then he commits suicide.
SoldierOfDarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 17:27   Link #108
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Yeah that's why he was preparing to fire the giant laser at Orb, who had just rejected their plan....

Besides his plan wasn't to have everyone be useful, it was to tell people their role in society based on DNA, and those who were found to not be desirable would have been disposed off. You want to be a doctor? oops too bad, Gil says all you can aspire to is a janitor. There go your dreams and aspirations.
So.... You think janitors are dumb huh? Ok, fine. Lets see how your building looks without one.

And if you're not cut out to be a doctor? Why waste time trying to become one when you're only gonna fail?

Anyway, he only blew up countries who -resisted- the plan, not the ones who were 'deemed useless'.


But anyway, I digress. The point is, Project Eden = survival of the smartest, Destiny Plan = Everyone does what they're good at.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 17:32   Link #109
Revolutionist
Puppet Master
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Well that's where the rumor that the UE were preparing the Federation for super powerful aliens down the road right?

Celestial Being wanted to progress humanity to the next level but no way did it involved gunning down civilians and colonies. Even they had a line they wouldn't dare cross.
But it did involve gunning down civilians, what do you think team Trinity did at the arms factory in the Union? Over 500 civilian workers dead. One thing is the actual meisters and CB aka Ptolemaios crew disagreeing with those methods, but Veda itself had no issues with that, in fact it allowed even Ribbons alterations to the plan because it was furthering the original plan. Machines don't know right from wrong or that the ends don't justify the means.

Let's not forget that CB also had a policy of noone left alive after an intervention before they went public. They were even supposed to kill victims like child soldiers...Then there are all the pilots they killed because they were simply doing their jobs and protecting their countries. Before CB even appeared there weren't even any major wars, just small ethnic conflicts here and there. None of the major powers were at war. CB also murdered its own scientists to keep their technology a secret. hardly a good organization...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
So.... You think janitors are dumb huh? Ok, fine. Lets see how your building looks without one.
When did I say that?

Quote:
And if you're not cut out to be a doctor? Why waste time trying to become one when you're only gonna fail?
Who the hell is anybody to tell you what you are and aren't cut out for? There's no way you can determine what someone will be when they grow up from their DNA. Our destiny isn't written in our DNA, that's a fucked up way of looking at life. It's what we make of it, not what someone else tells us. Your decisions alone should affect your destiny, nothing else. That's what being free means. To live under a system where your role in society is predetermined is to be a slave. Just because you start as a janitor doesn't mean you have to stay a Janitor. There are many cases of people starting at the lowest of positions and working their way up, through hard work. Under that stupid plan, people would be forced into roles with no hope of improvement.

Quote:
Anyway, he only blew up countries who -resisted- the plan, not the ones who were 'deemed useless'.


But anyway, I digress. The point is, Project Eden = survival of the smartest, Destiny Plan = Everyone does what they're good at.
No, he blew up the Altentic Federation president even though the guy had been calling him to dialog. He didn't even bother to hear the guy out, and he was planning to blow up Orb simply because Orb rejected his plan. Who gives him the right to blow up people who disagree with him? It was Orb's sovereign right to refuse such a plan.
__________________
I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark

Last edited by Revolutionist; 2012-07-09 at 17:50.
Revolutionist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 18:07   Link #110
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
There were the Solar Wars in 00. But that was a result of CB's manipulation of the energy industry phasing out fossil fuels. Nuclear energy was also phased out by manipulation so that the world would turn Solar power.

Ezelcant and Duradal are two different Social Darwinists.

Durandal's Destiny Plan is to force humanity into a caste system based on eugenics.

Ezelcant's Project Eden is survival of the fittest. By having people fight each other the weak are weeded out. Those survivors that are strong chosen ones would rebuild society. It is a Shadow like plan.

Both made a mistake that biology doesn't work that way. Darwin's Theory of Evolution can't be applied to Social Science.

Destiny Plan and Project Eden's flaws is that you can't quantify a persons worth by arbitrary genetic criteria based on quack science.

I don't know Gundam has almost always fallen back on the bad guy being one form or another of Social Darwinist. Zeon? Space Nazis. Azrael and Patrick Zala? Racists. Rau le Creaset? Humans are bastards an don't deserve to live. Char? Evilutionist whose grade is zero in biology.

That is why for most it feels like Lex Luthor shooting Gorilla Grodd after learning the master plan was turning humans into monkeys.

Social Darwinism as Ezelcant's plan can be seen a mile away by me once I learned Vegans were holding back to give the Federation and colonists openings to survive.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 18:12   Link #111
SoldierOfDarkness
The Dark Knight
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
But it did involve gunning down civilians, what do you think team Trinity did at the arms factory in the Union? Over 500 civilian workers dead. One thing is the actual meisters and CB aka Ptolemaios crew disagreeing with those methods, but Veda itself had no issues with that, in fact it allowed even Ribbons alterations to the plan because it was furthering the original plan. Machines don't know right from wrong or that the ends don't justify the means.
Uh did you watch a different series?

As CB found out people like Ribbons went in and took control of Veda and altered things which resulted in the civil war between the loyalists and the fake innovators.

In the end, the loyalists won, took back Veda, and got things back on track with Aeolia.

When Saji was doing his little research the Haro told him flat out that the Trinity were the enemies of CB.

Quote:
Let's not forget that CB also had a policy of noone left alive after an intervention before they went public. They were even supposed to kill victims like child soldiers...Then there are all the pilots they killed because they were simply doing their jobs and protecting their countries. Before CB even appeared there weren't even any major wars, just small ethnic conflicts here and there. None of the major powers were at war. CB also murdered its own scientists to keep their technology a secret. hardly a good organization...
I note they never actually went in to wipe out cities or gun down people.

And for the record, they actually had a freakin alien species bearing down on them so I would cut CB some slack on that department as it prepared them for what was to come. Yes to the rest of us it was weird as the Earth sphere was relatively peaceful but with a decade or so there would be a massive alien invasion which would make all of the conflicts look like tiny school fights.

In AGE, I would've found more sympathy for Ezcelant as a necessary evil if the rumors about the UE preparing the Federation for war was true.

In this case, he lost his son, snapped, and now wants to judge humanity.
SoldierOfDarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 18:39   Link #112
Revolutionist
Puppet Master
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Uh did you watch a different series?

As CB found out people like Ribbons went in and took control of Veda and altered things which resulted in the civil war between the loyalists and the fake innovators.

In the end, the loyalists won, took back Veda, and got things back on track with Aeolia.

When Saji was doing his little research the Haro told him flat out that the Trinity were the enemies of CB.



I note they never actually went in to wipe out cities or gun down people.

And for the record, they actually had a freakin alien species bearing down on them so I would cut CB some slack on that department as it prepared them for what was to come. Yes to the rest of us it was weird as the Earth sphere was relatively peaceful but with a decade or so there would be a massive alien invasion which would make all of the conflicts look like tiny school fights.

In AGE, I would've found more sympathy for Ezcelant as a necessary evil if the rumors about the UE preparing the Federation for war was true.

In this case, he lost his son, snapped, and now wants to judge humanity.
Not only did I watch the series, I apparently paid more attention to it than you did. The Plan wasn't a strict set of guidelines that told the people carrying it out what to do and what not to do. It simply had certain milestones that needed to be accomplished, such as the formation of the UN, and including the destruction of Celestial Being and the eventual evolution of humans into innovators. The observers set up by Celestial Being all voted on, and acknowledged Team Trinity as part of Celestial Being. Veda also approved of their actions like it did with Ribbons because they were contributing towards the overall goal of the plan.
So yeah, Celestial Being is no different, they are all about the end justify the means. They didn't know aliens were coming, just that in case aliens come, we need to kill a bunch of people to end conflict so we can understand each other and be prepared for aliens.
__________________
I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark
Revolutionist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 19:17   Link #113
j0x
Giga Drill Breaker
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
@monster

im confuse on what your really thinking, you said this

Quote:
My problem is, again, the fact that Ezelcant thinks eliminating war is so important to the future happiness of humanity over anything else when war is not even a big deal in his time.
and i already explained my part on how i understand it, to be honest i understand Ezelcant well enough no need for too much details to add complexity, i guess the problem here is that your so eager on finding flaws on the Ezelcants story and adding up unecessary complexity as your last reply tells this too, that is too much abstract thinking on your part imho, i better go with concrete thinking here since its a kids show like i mentioned time and time again

why eliminating wars is important when their is no war at Ezelcants time? because simply he can, he has the power to do so using EXA-DB that fuels his delusions (twisted knowledge like corruption on the earth federation) and dreams formed because of his bad human experiences (death of his people; his son died because of mars rays due to earth federations corruption and abandoning them the vagans to die on mars)

EXA-DB is the underrated cause of this war, since its the fuel for all Ezelcants delusions/dreams/reasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Ezelcant's Project Eden is survival of the fittest. By having people fight each other the weak are weeded out. Those survivors that are strong chosen ones would rebuild society. It is a Shadow like plan.
well put its natures way, natural selection or survival of the fittest, Project Eden will eliminate violent humans out of the gene pool
j0x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 21:45   Link #114
Blazer-X
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
On a side note... anyone else felt that Ezelcant looked a little like Dr. Weil from Megaman Zero when he was in his pilot suit?
Blazer-X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 22:09   Link #115
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by j0x View Post
why eliminating wars is important when their is no war at Ezelcants time? because simply he can
That's what I'm afraid of. Well, we'll see if there's more to it than that.
monster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 22:15   Link #116
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazer-X View Post
On a side note... anyone else felt that Ezelcant looked a little like Dr. Weil from Megaman Zero when he was in his pilot suit?
Now that you mention it, yeah, he did.
__________________
Rising Dragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-09, 23:48   Link #117
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by j0x View Post
well put its natures way, natural selection or survival of the fittest, Project Eden will eliminate violent humans out of the gene pool
I look at differently as Ezelcant is unknowingly creating a race of Spartans.

You know those guys who leave babies in the cold if they could survive, abandoning weak babies, living their lives fighting and stealing (if you're caught your punished not for stealing but being stupid in being caught) so that when they grow up they are trained to be hardened soldiers.

Quality over quantity is what doomed the Spartans.

Flit would kick Ezelcant down a gravity well when comes to ask that if humans value their lives shouting "This is Earth Sphere!".

edit: Oh I forgot evolution does not work that way! The answer is in right in front of Ezelcant. Social factors lead to war or peace not genetic predisposition.

Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2012-07-10 at 01:16.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-10, 01:16   Link #118
DragoonKain3
Osana-Najimi Shipper
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
Declaring a sub-set of the human species as a 'superior race', and starting a war in order to create the perfect 'living space' for them?

Heil Hitler Ezelcant!
__________________

Yes its YOU childhood friend - source of BERZERKER RAGE since forever
Childhood Friend couple STATISTICS(spoilers abound though)
DragoonKain3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-10, 01:25   Link #119
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Declaring a sub-set of the human species as a 'superior race', and starting a war in order to create the perfect 'living space' for them?

Heil Hitler Ezelcant!
On that note Hitler was a Social Darwinist in regards to the Nazi party officers and various departments in Germany.

Pitting one against another. This is why despite their technical know how some stuff never get pass the drawing board or mass produced.

Departments don't trust each other or share data.

No wonder they didn't get close in building a nuke.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-10, 03:41   Link #120
RES-01 Perses Gundam
A Contradiction Beneath
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Singapore
A critical flaw in Ezelcant's plan:

He's going to explore every means to create the ultimate human race, one wise enough not to go to war among themselves. But to ensure the survival of this superior race, those humans he personally selected need to procreate. Where genes are involved, it is nature that determines the intellect and wisdom of humans that are born, not through Ezelcant's mechanisms. Unless he has a system in mind to weed out those "inferior" ones, it would be practically impossible to sustain the supposed wisdom of his chosen race.
RES-01 Perses Gundam is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
weekly episode discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.