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Old 2012-07-11, 10:09   Link #1
relentlessflame
 
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Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

The purpose of this thread is to allow fans of the Muv-Luv Universe to more-freely discuss and speculate about the military tactics, world history, and geo-political situation in the world. Particularly, this topic may be of interest to viewers of Total Eclipse anime who wish to have more information about the world shown in the anime beyond what is covered expressly in the story. It is being split off so that anime-only viewers who do not wish to have this extra information (that could be considered a spoiler) can choose to ignore it.

Certain spoilers from the games are permitted, but please use spoiler tags when revealing important game events. Plot-related spoilers not related to the topic of this discussion are forbidden (for example, the actions of specific in-game characters, etc.) and should go to instead to the Muv-Luv Game Thread.
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Old 2012-07-11, 10:17   Link #2
grevierr
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Many thanks! Now all the spoiler tech can be discussed. lol.
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Old 2012-07-11, 10:25   Link #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Given the scale of the threat, I myself have wondered why nukes aren't being used. I have a few ideas for why they're not being used:

1. They were never invented in this reality. This show does have an AU Earth history, after all. While it's much more advanced than real world Earth in some ways, maybe it's actually less advanced in some others.

2. There seems to be more unity amongst the nations of the Earth in this show. So maybe nobody wants to irradiate the backyard of one of his friend's, even if that would put a serious hurt on the BETA.

3. Maybe the BETA are immune to nuclear radiation. It's like that old joke - If there's a worldwide nuclear war, the only life left surviving will be the cockroaches.
1. Nukes do exist in the BETAverse, and it's likely true that they aren't as advanced as nukes in today's world.

2. There actually is a lot more unity, since they do have a common enemy. But their strategies against that enemy conflict a lot, with some groups wanting to use special technology to fight the BETA head on, and others wanting to bomb the hell out of them. So while there aren't much of outright wars between countries, there is much political tension and sneaky underhanded tactics going on.

3. I think they are immune to radiation, or at least largely unaffected. But they can be easily killed by the force of a nuke.
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Old 2012-07-11, 10:31   Link #4
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Then why does they just nuke them? its really funny when they let it land on earth and also they let it spread on the planet. If their are nukes then it can be used even if not as powerful as of today's world.

I just can't take it seriously that they are focusing their strength on mech's that I can only see firing guns and getting killed and also cost big money if they can just send the fasted fighter plane their is and do a bombing of this bugs.
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Old 2012-07-11, 10:33   Link #5
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I guess I'll take this opportunity to answer the nuke thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Given the scale of the threat, I myself have wondered why nukes aren't being used. I have a few ideas for why they're not being used:

1. They were never invented in this reality. This show does have an AU Earth history, after all. While it's much more advanced than real world Earth in some ways, maybe it's actually less advanced in some others.

2. There seems to be more unity amongst the nations of the Earth in this show. So maybe nobody wants to irradiate the backyard of one of his friend's, even if that would put a serious hurt on the BETA.

3. Maybe the BETA are immune to nuclear radiation. It's like that old joke - If there's a worldwide nuclear war, the only life left surviving will be the cockroaches.
1. They did invent nukes in WWII just like in our reality, though Japan surrendered unconditionally without needing to get nuked so Berlin got the atomic bomb instead. However in the early days of the war, the Soviets and Chinese didn't see the need to deploy them because at the time they were capable of holding their own in a purely conventional war, thanks to their complete air superiority and thus ability to call in airstrikes, chopper support, supply airdrops and so on. Then about nineteen days after the initial landing, the BETA first started deploying the Laser class, acting as a complete air defense system denying humanity access to air superiority and hence forcing them to fight a purely ground-based war, in which the BETA had the advantage with their overwhelming numbers. At this point, attempts to fire nukes resulted in the nukes getting lasered without fail, sort of like what Reagan wanted to achieve with the Strategic Defense Initiative in real life.

2. The United States learned from the mistakes that the Soviets and Chinese made, and when another BETA Hive landing unit arrived from the Moon they promptly hit it with a bunch of ICBMs before it had a chance to start deploying any BETA units in substantial quantities, let alone any Lasers, thus turning half of Canada into an irradiated wasteland in order to save the rest of Canada and the Americas from a BETA incursion from the north. Though the nations of the world ostensibly cooperate against the BETA, there's still an unhealthy dose of the typical human infighting, intolerance of differing political ideologies, attempted power grabs and so on under the surface that can flare up from time to time. For a non-spoileriffic example, the United States and USSR still have their nuclear arsenals pointed at each other, ready to turn each other into a smoking wasteland, with the US being in full 1950s red scare paranoia willing to quietly interfere with other nations' domestic affairs to safeguard the homeland mode.

Spoiler for Total Eclipse - the Cold War:


3. The BETA are pretty much immune to radiation, though the heat and shockwave of nuclear explosions will kill them just fine. The problem then lies in delivery of the nuke that doesn't result in it getting lasered. The US develops xenotech-powered gravity-warping G-bombs that can't be touched by lasers thanks to gravity warp fields, but these cause permanent distortions in the Earth's gravitational field when they go off, so are kind of undesirable and were only ever deployed twice as of 2001 (the year Muv-Luv Unlimited/Alternative and Total Eclipse main plot starts).

TSFs sent on Hive infiltration missions are all equipped with an S-11, a bomb with yield equivalent to an average tactical nuke, which can be deployed normally (intended to be used to destroy the Reactor at the deepest part of the Hive, rendering the Hive incapable of maintaining a BETA population) or used as a suicide device if need be.
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Old 2012-07-11, 10:38   Link #6
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So the real problem is the laser type that attacks the missile assault.
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Old 2012-07-11, 11:14   Link #7
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So it is not possible snipe Laser class a la Evangelion style? I just hard for me to imagine human didn't try to capture few of those things to figure out how they determine targets and wether it is possible to reproduce their lasers and have our own cuddly laser class on a stick. Or shields that distort, absorb, reflect their beams.

Last edited by Candyshark; 2012-07-11 at 11:25.
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Old 2012-07-11, 11:31   Link #8
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By observation they have managed to determine that Lasers will assign somewhat higher priority to more advanced tech that gets thrown at them compared to less advanced, so they'd prefer to shoot at a TSF than at an armored car, and prefer to shoot at a nuclear missile than to shoot at an artillery shell.

Long distance sniping's too much of a hassle to pull off safely, if you have a line of sight to them they have a line of sight to you and you get a faceful of laser, so they prefer to launch massive artillery bombardment from over the other side of the horizon (hence the horizon acts as cover between the lasers and your battleships and artillery), with a large number of the shells filled with heavy metal dust that explode into big heavy metal clouds upon getting lasered, which helps to reduce laser intensity and allow more shells to get through than they otherwise would have had. Then TSFs close the distance while making use of their high mobility to use the other BETA for cover (since Lasers will never ever shoot at other BETA) while tanks and artillery continue to shell the battlefield, and make the Lasers a priority target in addition to their mission of killing all the BETA they can. In that way it could be said that TSFs bring the air campaign down to the ground, making use of high mobility and speed to kill high priority targets to support other ground units while in turn being supported by said ground units. Ideally, once all the lasers in the area are dead, they can call in airborne bombing runs and chopper support, giving them a decisive advantage in that battle.

The big "capture BETA and figure out what makes them tick" program, Alternative II, ended in failure when they failed to figure out anything substantial about BETA physiology from studying captured specimens, at the cost of many lives in the attempt to capture and contain live specimens for study.

Aside from said heavy metal clouds that help to reduce laser intensity, TSFs are also covered with anti-laser ablative coating that can survive up to around 3 to 5 seconds worth of direct full power Lux laser exposure, and detection of initial laser contact with the coating triggers alarms in the pilot's cockpit warning the pilot to evade out of the beam's path/get to cover immediately, or if the pilot chooses the TSF computer can attempt to auto-evade upon detection. Stops the lasers from being a one-hit instant kill, so to speak, but if said anti-laser coating is burned away completely or was never present, the laser is powerful enough to cause armor to instantly flash to plasma, causing a plasma explosion.

For some reason this vital anti-laser coating wasn't depicted in Episode 2 of the anime, instead lasers caused instadeaths. I wonder why. The ablative coating can't be all that recent an innovation as of 2001.

They also have the gravitational distortion fields created by BETA tech powered Moorcock-Lechte engines that are used in the aforementioned G-bombs that render them untouchable to lasers by bending/distorting them, but also have the somewhat undesirable effect of turning any living thing inside the field to tomato sauce in all their previous attempts to make a vehicle shielded by said fields thanks to incapability to precisely control the shape of the field. Combined with how limited their stockpile of BETA-manufactured G-elements (essentially super science phlebotnium that the humans can't figure out how to replicate) is (it's only found at the very deepest part of BETA Hives, and they only had any at all because they nuked the Canada landing unit then scavenged them from its remains, it's unfeasible to attempt to make use of them to add deflector shields to TSFs.

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-07-11 at 11:43.
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Old 2012-07-11, 11:39   Link #9
Tempester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candyshark View Post
I just hard for me to imagine human didn't try to capture few of those things to figure out how they determine targets and wether it is possible to reproduce their lasers and have our own cuddly laser class on a stick.
They did, and they are experimenting on them among all other types of BETA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
The big "capture BETA and figure out what makes them tick" program, Alternative II, ended in failure when they failed to figure out anything substantial about BETA physiology from studying captured specimens, at the cost of many lives in the attempt to capture and contain live specimens for study.
This is secondhand information I have, but humans have made progress with the human weaponization of the laser beam. They just haven't come up with anything practical yet.
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Old 2012-07-11, 11:44   Link #10
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So what about destroyer class on a stick? Use that as meat shield to close up and meatgrind them bastards.
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Old 2012-07-11, 12:07   Link #11
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So what about destroyer class on a stick? Use that as meat shield to close up and meatgrind them bastards.
You also have to realize, the BETA are incredibly adaptive. There was no Laser-class when the BETA initially invaded (on the moon, or Mars). Those Laser-class BETA only emerged after humanity was having successes with their aerial superiority during the first phases of the BETA invasion.

Spoiler for BETA Alternative Spoilers:
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Old 2012-07-11, 13:13   Link #12
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So the real problem is the laser type that attacks the missile assault.
Not just that. No matter how much they nuke the BETA, they still keep on coming regardless. In other words, their numbers are so great that it doesn't matter how many times they are nuked... assuming some are not shot down in time by Lux-chan and Magnus Lux-kun. Not to mention, they usually travel REALLY deep underground.
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Old 2012-07-11, 13:24   Link #13
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^but that's the problem when they manage to spread onto the earth. Why they didn't stop it when its still in the moon? I think it will be a lot faster and safer though I'm not sure if nuking the moon is a good move. Its hard to deal with them now that they have massive numbers and still increasing. The thing that's been a problem is their HUGE NUMBER and not their ability itself yet (though the anime only show yet soldier, laser, destroyer, grabber and that fort though I don't see it fight)

The mechs prove to be a match to them but resources are a problem when building it and the pilots that pilots it. Plus it can't be mass produced like thus big bugs.
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Old 2012-07-11, 13:58   Link #14
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By the way, landmines were used in great numbers on Oder-Neisse defensive line, protecting the east borderline of DDR in "Schwarzesmaken".
That was long prepared fortification line with man-made swamps at riwersides, concrete bunkers with artillery and PTRK, tank positions and so on.
There were special interwals where destroer-class were lured to mine fields and flanking fire.
On this defence line NNA - East German Nationale Volksarmee - could stop BETA for years. But not forever.
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Old 2012-07-11, 14:06   Link #15
Silvance
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
^but that's the problem when they manage to spread onto the earth. Why they didn't stop it when its still in the moon? I think it will be a lot faster and safer though I'm not sure if nuking the moon is a good move. Its hard to deal with them now that they have massive numbers and still increasing. The thing that's been a problem is their HUGE NUMBER and not their ability itself yet (though the anime only show yet soldier, laser, destroyer, grabber and that fort though I don't see it fight)

The mechs prove to be a match to them but resources are a problem when building it and the pilots that pilots it. Plus it can't be mass produced like thus big bugs.
The UN were already engaging the BETA on the moon, but failed to stop their advance regardless. Interplanetary nuclear strike during the 70s? Maybe they tried it or it was just not possible during that time. Whatever the case is we don't know for sure if they used such weapon or not.
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Old 2012-07-11, 14:09   Link #16
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By the way, landmines were used in great numbers on Oder-Neisse defensive line, protecting the east borderline of DDR in "Schwarzesmaken".
That was long prepared fortification line with man-made swamps at riwersides, concrete bunkers with artillery and PTRK, tank positions and so on.
There were special interwals where destroer-class were lured to mine fields and flanking fire.
On this defence line NNA - East German Nationale Volksarmee - could stop BETA for years. But not forever.
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Old 2012-07-11, 14:17   Link #17
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
^but that's the problem when they manage to spread onto the earth. Why they didn't stop it when its still in the moon? I think it will be a lot faster and safer though I'm not sure if nuking the moon is a good move. Its hard to deal with them now that they have massive numbers and still increasing. The thing that's been a problem is their HUGE NUMBER and not their ability itself yet (though the anime only show yet soldier, laser, destroyer, grabber and that fort though I don't see it fight)
strategic disadvantage, since US army can't really send much forces due to technological limitation and during the moon assault TSF haven't been developed yet. Eventually due to suffering too much losses, they find the attempt to fight BETA on the moon to be fruitless which the battle are said to be hellish.
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Old 2012-07-11, 14:19   Link #18
Silvance
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Aren't they still in a cold war attitude? I'm not sure if the U.S. or Soviets would even share a single nuke to the UN during the 60s or 70s.
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Old 2012-07-11, 15:06   Link #19
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Not just that. No matter how much they nuke the BETA, they still keep on coming regardless. In other words, their numbers are so great that it doesn't matter how many times they are nuked... assuming some are not shot down in time by Lux-chan and Magnus Lux-kun. Not to mention, they usually travel REALLY deep underground.
Did they ever try underground nuclear detonation then? From what I've seen, Laser classes don't target anything on the ground, much less the ground itself. Couldn't they plant nukes underground along the BETA's path?

And if they managed to take out a hive, then reinforcing BETA wouldn't be an issue, right? What's the dealio with hives? Have they tried mass-nuking them? Or are they absolutely covered in laser class?
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Old 2012-07-11, 15:28   Link #20
Silvance
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If the BETA are not advancing on the surface, then they dig underground as they invade, and there's no way to tell where they will strike. Humans have a device like creep meters, but I don't know the exact name of it. It's still doesn't help much other than telling them "more" is coming.

Nuclear mines? Depends whether the country in question will want to use such things on their homeland, and follow the example of Russia and China. They can try to lure the small horde there. I highly doubt it'd stop the entire BETA horde since like everyone said, their numbers are just overwhelming unless there's just a few thousands of them or so... The mines will easily kill the BETA, but all of them? VERY unlikely. The mines will be all used up in no time. It'd be great if there are a LOT of reserves. In addition, reinforcements tends to show up shortly especially if they are nearby the hives. The battle of attrition at the most frustrating manner.



Nuking the hives is not very effective since the laser class are at the top of the monument, shooting at anything within range. Even if a bomb is dropped and reaches the bottom of the shaft, will it take out everything including the extra branches that stretches really far and deep?

Spoiler for Muv-Luv Alternative: Objective 21:
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