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Old 2005-12-28, 07:55   Link #101
Shinji103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
whatever, you can have your field day or public orgy all you want wherever you want, I was just replying to your post that I see here, and currently I have no interest to talk much about the series, I'll have more interest to go to the series' thread to talk more about it when (and if) it can have something more than just mediocre pretentious 3rd rate "drama" and some shota/loli twin incest fan-service in the future
*sigh* Well as they say in Japan fools can only be cured through death, and since nobody wants you to die, I guess you'll just be like that.

But a comment: now you see, that's why you're shallow Dreamless. You don't see the purpose that the twins' love serves in the story and character develpoment....okay I guess I can't blame you (for now) since it hasn't actually happened in the anime yet, but in tha novels, which the anime is following very closely,
Spoiler:
It's a lot more complicated then that in actuallity, but I don't think you can see deep enough to understand how deep it goes.
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Old 2005-12-28, 08:23   Link #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
Hoo-boy.

And yet, strangely enough, there seems to be a lot more focus on the drama of the show....


...and is this central to the show? Is the anime focusing on fanservice at all? No, thank you very much. Again, there wasn't even any fanservice at all until episode 4. Proof, not evidence but proof that this show does not focus and is not just about fanservice. It's there for as an omake. The meat is the drama, as with other anime.


Schuwhatum now? The series has shown plenty of depth. I don't really see any reasoning here on your part, I just see "The series has no depth" and that's it. Oh, and "It's loli-fanservice."


Are you kidding? This show can't even be considered a true fanservice-only series with what it currently has. We don't even have fanservice every episode. What about true fanservice series like Girls Bravo?

Dude, novels don't work as fanservice, because there are no visuals. If the readers can actually get off on fanservice given in words, then that means they're either on something or the writing was damn good.

Yeah, umm, and these tenetacles were serving fanservice in what respect, hmm? I saw them doing nothing more than restraining Shana, but maybe you were on something and saw some illusion?


Errr, wow you really like to slap your opponents huh? And my repsonses to each quote were longer (and deeper ) than yours.... Just because you got smacked by me and several others about episode 6 back in the old Shana thread before the hack, doesn't mean you can go and act high and mighty here in a different thread.

But that has brought a great idea to me. Let's move this debate into the SnS thread where it belongs! Come on now, you haven't been there since you got smacked about episode 6 before the hack! (Come to think of it, why did you get into this anyway? I didn't say anything about you.... :P )

And before you go bonkers, that's not flaming, I like a good debate.
Well after I 've read dreamless's opinion , I'm sure that he is fool and idiot jerk who didn't understand what the great anime is .

Shinji it's great to see that fool smacked by you and several others about episode 6 back in the old Shana thread and even in this new thread .

And if he thinks Sns is 2nd grade anime , I'm so curious to know what the hell series is the 1st grade animes for him .
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Old 2005-12-28, 08:34   Link #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
*sigh* Well as they say in Japan fools can only be cured through death, and since nobody wants you to die, I guess you'll just be like that.

But a comment: now you see, that's why you're shallow Dreamless. You don't see the purpose that the twins' love serves in the story and character develpoment....okay I guess I can't blame you (for now) since it hasn't actually happened in the anime yet, but in tha novels, which the anime is following very closely,
Spoiler:
It's a lot more complicated then that in actuallity, but I don't think you can see deep enough to understand how deep it goes.
You're right , I don't think this guy can understand that depth and complicate story .
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Old 2005-12-28, 09:08   Link #104
Owaranai Destiny
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Now, now...We don't have to lower our levels to that, do we? We can't decide how small the dinosaur's brain is, and we definitely can't decide to change the shallowness of certain arguments. It won't get us anywhere. Apparently, if some people can't see the big picture, let them rave by themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
whatever, you can have your field day or public orgy all you want wherever you want, I was just replying to your post that I see here, and currently I have no interest to talk much about the series, I'll have more interest to go to the series' thread to talk more about it when (and if) it can have something more than just mediocre pretentious 3rd rate "drama" and some shota/loli twin incest fan-service in the future
Just to add my comments. I don't know that you can actually foresee the future, O great Oracle. If you have no interest to talk much about the series, perhaps you might as well lay off commenting on it, since nothing clean comes from your mouth....hopefully nothing from your mind, of course. If all it takes is one or two episodes or several scenes of fanservice, you might well avoid most of the manga as well as anime nowadays, my friend.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again (even if it is in other forums): Shakugan no Shana started out with its main themes on fantasy as well as the supernatural, slowly moving to drama, romance and even humor. It may not have the 'best' in drama, but it warrants at the very least a 'good'. Drama aside, the development of plot as well as characters are good. It adopts a mostly 'the calm before the storm' episode for episodes 9, 10 and 11. These three show how they Yuuji and Shana live (or attempt to live) a normal life like normal kids. Aside from the fanservice, I would think these are rather normal episodes, but they provide character development for Shana, who had been coming to terms with her emotions as well as Yuuji, who, like any normal male teenager, feels that he is useless because he can't help Shana much.

Now...Other than those few scenes/episodes of fanservice, if you can't provide a concrete argument, dreamless, please stay out of the critics' corner in this thread. Thank you very much.
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Old 2005-12-28, 09:19   Link #105
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I do have to say though, the show isn't nearly as interesting now as it was in its early episodes (minus episode 1). About the most I can say about the show in its current form is that it presents what is fundamentally uninspired material well enough that it seems worth continuing with, on the hope that it will become more like its early episodes again at some point.

In that respect, I'm actually continuing to watch it for much the same reasons as I was watching the early episodes of Shuffle, funnily enough.
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Old 2005-12-28, 09:27   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambda
I do have to say though, the show isn't nearly as interesting now as it was in its early episodes (minus episode 1). About the most I can say about the show in its current form is that it presents what is fundamentally uninspired material well enough that it seems worth continuing with, on the hope that it will become more like its early episodes again at some point.

In that respect, I'm actually continuing to watch it for much the same reasons as I was watching the early episodes of Shuffle, funnily enough.
...Well, people are entitled to their own opinions I suppose, though not without evidence why this 'sucks' or that 'is crap'. I'm jus curious to know that what interested you in the earlier episodes that the later ones don't.
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Old 2005-12-28, 09:37   Link #107
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does that mean all the talk about loli is over noooooo!

but seriously when does eps 13 come out in japan, and if anybody has seen it is it a good eps. what happens spoil me please?
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Old 2005-12-28, 09:43   Link #108
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Episode 13 airs on 2005-01-04 (night between wednesday and thursday japanese time, as usual). Nothing this week because of new year's.
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Old 2005-12-28, 12:20   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
While Shakugan no Shana certainly has a bit of fanservice, that isn't what it is about. It is more like a spice, than the main course of this meal. I feel that when people focus on the fanservice in a show like this, it tells you more about them, than it tells you about the show.
How about the BGM? I think the show can get better simply by doing something about it. After the first couple of episode it was pretty evident that this show will try to maintain a serious undertone through out the series. The horrible BGM just seems to exaggerate the theme the show has tried to emphasize on. I also have to credit the music, coupled with the melancholy tone of the male lead, for making some of the preview at the end of an episode hilarious i.e. as the hero described what's the next episode is about while we saw Shana and couple of other girls in swimsuit borrowing the shoulders of a few lucky gentlemen. I choked on my shrimp fried rice as I was watching that preview. While the series like Bleach does it intentionally, this series is (most likely ) doing it unintentionally thanks to it's background music.

No problem here with fan service or the story the show is trying tell. Just that the music seems to be getting on the way of the effort of story telling.
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Old 2005-12-28, 13:06   Link #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny
...Well, people are entitled to their own opinions I suppose, though not without evidence why this 'sucks' or that 'is crap'. I'm jus curious to know that what interested you in the earlier episodes that the later ones don't.
Basically, anything relating to the main characters not actually being real people, in the conventional sense at least.
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Old 2005-12-28, 13:06   Link #111
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Anyone know the planned episode lengh of the series? Also, how long were the novels?

I din't much care for the first episode but tuck with it and now this my other current favorite next to Mai-Otome. Excellent characterization and I find the whole action-drama-romance package is unusually well paced.

Anyone saying the show is loli is completely ignoring the matter of art style choice. Characters here are simply drawn in a generally more compact manner, I think the swimsuit episode makes it quite clear that they are all around 14-ish and Shana is just a bit underdeveloped.

Also, I have to say the introduction of the twins was one of the few things to shock me in the past couple of years worth of anime. Not due to the fact itself, but because of how the producers just decided to throw it out there instead of the usual "subtly implied" situations typical in such shows.
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Old 2005-12-28, 13:54   Link #112
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Quote:
I also have to credit the music, coupled with the melancholy tone of the male lead, for making some of the preview at the end of an episode hilarious i.e. as the hero described what's the next episode is about while we saw Shana and couple of other girls in swimsuit borrowing the shoulders of a few lucky gentlemen.
I have to agree here... It was simply hilarious, Yuuji was talking seriously and dramatically while the screen showed Kazumi's breasts :P

Quote:
Anyone know the planned episode lengh of the series?
26 episodes.
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Old 2005-12-28, 15:12   Link #113
Newprimus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plant42
You're right , I don't think this guy can understand that depth and complicate story .
dreamless' idea of "drama" must be the kind of stories where the characters constantly angst over oh how unfortunate they are and where no one seems to have a sense of humor and where the setting and mood are suffocatingly dark and emo.


On the series though, the novel is 11 volumes. So how far are we now into the novels? What volume is the anime approximately on? Is it conceivable that there will have to be a second season for SnS to go through all of the novel that's out now?
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Old 2005-12-28, 16:15   Link #114
ctrl-z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambda
I do have to say though, the show isn't nearly as interesting now as it was in its early episodes (minus episode 1). About the most I can say about the show in its current form is that it presents what is fundamentally uninspired material well enough that it seems worth continuing with, on the hope that it will become more like its early episodes again at some point.

In that respect, I'm actually continuing to watch it for much the same reasons as I was watching the early episodes of Shuffle, funnily enough.
I'm kind of in the same boat as you with respect to SnS - that is, I found it a lot more interesting at the start than now in the present. I chalk it up to the dramatic first episode in which a "story-shock" is employed by juxtaposing Yuji's quiet school life with Shana's fuzetsu-dominated perspective in which the destruction-riddled aftermath is the norm. Of course, there's also Yuji's startling revelation about his own.. 'status' among the living.

I can't think of anything that SnS is really doing wrong... But the battles, dialogues, and interactions between Shana and her enemies (guze no tomogara, etc.) were kind of bland. It's not so much that I was expecting big, flashy battles (although the battles are a bit goofy), but they didn't seem to contribute exceptionally to the plot (primarily character-driven) relative to the amount of time spent on them.

On the other hand, having too little focus on such clashes would cheapen Shana's role as a Flame Haze as well as reduce the audience's opinion of the viewpoint from which she is coming from. That said, I guess SnS is a bit more diluted than it should be, rather than having done any particular story element so poorly as to warrant heavy flaming.

With respect to the subject of loli...

Yes, Shana is undoubtedly in the loli category when they portray her in an abject or sexual way (slightly cyclical here, but better to get the point across through redundancy). Disregarding her age, she is clearly shorter than her 'class-mates' - Ep3, ~09:00 when she leaves the classroom; Ep.9 ~12:50 when walking in the water park; and official site lists her as more than 10cm shorter than Kazumi. She's flat/relatively hipless, and her features and expressions are depicted similarly to the rest of the characters that are Yuji's age (so she's unlikely older than them, although facial features aren't a good indication of age in anime, as we all know). Within the context of the show, she clearly possesses a body that is of lesser physical maturity than the rest of the school-going cast, and by logical inference, one that is of lesser age. Purely from observation, we can also speculate that her body is of a real-life equivalent to that of perhaps a 12 year old (maybe as old as 14, puberty and what not, I'm not expert).

On the subject of fanservice...

In the water park episode, Shana in a swimsuit is fanservice to the extent that wearing a swimsuit is out of character for her -- acknowledged in-story when Yuji's mother picks a suit for her -- and thus there is some amusement garnered by the audience in seeing our cold and stoic (thus far) heroine suitably garbed and placed in a situation that is quite opposite to that of her personality. The swimsuit itself seems like a typical "cute" style for a younger girl.

On the other hand, Episode 4 constitutes loli fanservice.

As for Episode 12's tentacles, that could be considered fanservice, too, as far as being a nod to the niche of the hentai world that focuses on that type of appendage (and its commonly depicted use of restrainment and... err.. yeah).
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Old 2005-12-28, 18:27   Link #115
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Beautiful response there ctrl-z. I agree with everything you've said. I've found that the reason why I continue to watch SnS has completely changed too. Right now, I'm watching purely for the romantic development of Shana and Yuji.
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Old 2005-12-28, 18:51   Link #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedzombie
.oh, and ep 12......that was bordering hentai......lol
I was expecting something bad in the show after reading that comment but it certainly wasn't that bad.

Spoiler:
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Old 2005-12-28, 19:00   Link #117
ctrl-z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tun
Beautiful response there ctrl-z. I agree with everything you've said. I've found that the reason why I continue to watch SnS has completely changed too. Right now, I'm watching purely for the romantic development of Shana and Yuji.
You've just pointed out the exact thing I forgot to put in my previous (and convoluted) post -- that is, the character-driven plot revolves primarily around Shana and Yuji. Thanks! Indeed, it's the aspect of the show that keeps me watching right now.
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Old 2005-12-28, 19:06   Link #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappster
I was expecting something bad in the show after reading that comment but it certainly wasn't that bad.
heh, i was just being sarcastic/jokin around.........
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Old 2005-12-28, 19:33   Link #119
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Not that it's bad. The show's okay, but a bit overhyped.

I do agree with the thoughts that this show is well.... loli-fanservice. I got the feeling that this show was meant to appease certain "otakus" with their fetishes, but maybe it's just me, because almost any animes does that, with an add spice of typical big-boobs Majorly into the picture, big-boobs and lolicon galore, ep 9 comes to mind. And I also agree that the musics were way overblown and some of them just doesn't fit.

They also seemed to try to make the story as angst as possible...

My 2 cents...
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Old 2005-12-28, 21:37   Link #120
Owaranai Destiny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctrl-z
I'm kind of in the same boat as you with respect to SnS - that is, I found it a lot more interesting at the start than now in the present. I chalk it up to the dramatic first episode in which a "story-shock" is employed by juxtaposing Yuji's quiet school life with Shana's fuzetsu-dominated perspective in which the destruction-riddled aftermath is the norm. Of course, there's also Yuji's startling revelation about his own.. 'status' among the living.
Now that's really nice to hear someone say that the start of the story was good, considering the fact that many people felt that SnS was no good because of its confusing beginning.

Quote:
I can't think of anything that SnS is really doing wrong... But the battles, dialogues, and interactions between Shana and her enemies (guze no tomogara, etc.) were kind of bland. It's not so much that I was expecting big, flashy battles (although the battles are a bit goofy), but they didn't seem to contribute exceptionally to the plot (primarily character-driven) relative to the amount of time spent on them.

On the other hand, having too little focus on such clashes would cheapen Shana's role as a Flame Haze as well as reduce the audience's opinion of the viewpoint from which she is coming from. That said, I guess SnS is a bit more diluted than it should be, rather than having done any particular story element so poorly as to warrant heavy flaming.
Admittingly, the battles were not anything to rave about, like perhaps the ones in Bleach. Interaction wasn't entirely good either, but I attributed it to the fact that Shana is a Flame Haze, who serves only to protect the balance of existence. There isn't really much to talk about when you know the other group's doing what you've been protecting against. Furthermore, aside from helping character development, the Tomogara appearing so far are what we would call 'side-dishes'. I believe that there will be a much more in-depth story on the world of the Guze later on.


Quote:
Yes, Shana is undoubtedly in the loli category when they portray her in an abject or sexual way (slightly cyclical here, but better to get the point across through redundancy). Disregarding her age, she is clearly shorter than her 'class-mates' - Ep3, ~09:00 when she leaves the classroom; Ep.9 ~12:50 when walking in the water park; and official site lists her as more than 10cm shorter than Kazumi. She's flat/relatively hipless, and her features and expressions are depicted similarly to the rest of the characters that are Yuji's age (so she's unlikely older than them, although facial features aren't a good indication of age in anime, as we all know). Within the context of the show, she clearly possesses a body that is of lesser physical maturity than the rest of the school-going cast, and by logical inference, one that is of lesser age. Purely from observation, we can also speculate that her body is of a real-life equivalent to that of perhaps a 12 year old (maybe as old as 14, puberty and what not, I'm not expert).
Gah, you're right. At least the official side did state that she has a body of a 12 year-old or something like that, though she's probably no younger than the 15 year-old Yuji.

Quote:
In the water park episode, Shana in a swimsuit is fanservice to the extent that wearing a swimsuit is out of character for her -- acknowledged in-story when Yuji's mother picks a suit for her -- and thus there is some amusement garnered by the audience in seeing our cold and stoic (thus far) heroine suitably garbed and placed in a situation that is quite opposite to that of her personality. The swimsuit itself seems like a typical "cute" style for a younger girl.

On the other hand, Episode 4 constitutes loli fanservice.

As for Episode 12's tentacles, that could be considered fanservice, too, as far as being a nod to the niche of the hentai world that focuses on that type of appendage (and its commonly depicted use of restrainment and... err.. yeah).
Hmm...well said. You have provided evidence as well as arguments, so there's definitely depth to your argument. But in depiction to the whole thing, those weren't really tentacles, come to think of it. They were more of tendrils of vines from a humongous flower we see in 0:21:47 of episode 12. But yeah, the basic idea is tentacles...

And you forgot something else: Episode 11 also does constitute of fanservice. Remember the 'subtly added' bathing scenes?

Still, I consider fanservice as a side-dish....nothing more. The most important aspect of the show would be character development, since the plot's moving a little slowly currently.
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