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Old 2012-07-11, 05:02   Link #61
MysticNinjaJay
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Originally Posted by Lunarskylar View Post
it's completely up in the air who "them" refers too, especially since stated on one of the previous pages, the japanese term used for "them" in this case, is pretty derogative.

both oro and sasuke could easily be referring to the kages since they both aren't too fond of konoha, but the human who knows everything... that would be the mostly likely be the rikudou sennin would it not?

wouldn't be surprised if he lived in some shape or form.... everyone's doing it these days
The Sage of the Six Paths is certainly very knowledgeable but I think the 1st Hokage is more closely connected to the origins of the village. He is the man who defeated Uchiha Madara and could provide Sasuke with a different perspective on the relationship between the rulers of the village and the Uchiha clan.

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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
you're right, it doesn't make sense. why go through the pains of switching bodies or get tsunade to "heal" him when all he needed was to seal a part of himself in other people's bodies and then have someone revive him every time his current self dies? so basically, if this oro dies as well, all they need to do is unseal him from his other cursed seal victims.
I doubt that Orochimaru wants to depend on other people for his revival.

Oro not only maintains eternal youth by possessing the bodies of young hosts he inherits the powers of each of his victims. That is why powerful Ninja are so valuable to him because his vessel needs to be strong and he gets their unique abilities.

The Cursed Seals could be used as a last ditch effort to ensure that he isn't killed off if his physical body dies. The more people with the cursed seal the greater chance Orochimaru has at survival and possible revival. I guess he actually has to be dead in order to be revived. I thought Oro's revival was actually pretty creative. Since Kabuto had Oro's cells he could be used to regenerate Orochimaru's body with its full powers while his consciousness resides within cursed seals (and he remains in the loop about everything his victim witnesses while his consciousness is sealed within them).
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Old 2012-07-11, 05:20   Link #62
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
I doubt that Orochimaru wants to depend on other people for his revival.

Oro not only maintains eternal youth by possessing the bodies of young hosts he inherits the powers of each of his victims. That is why powerful Ninja are so valuable to him because his vessel needs to be strong and he gets their unique abilities.

The Cursed Seals could be used as a last ditch effort to ensure that he isn't killed off if his physical body dies. The more people with the cursed seal the greater chance Orochimaru has at survival and possible revival. I guess he actually has to be dead in order to be revived. I thought Oro's revival was actually pretty creative. Since Kabuto had Oro's cells he could be used to regenerate Orochimaru's body with its full powers while his consciousness resides within cursed seals (and he remains in the loop about everything his victim witnesses while his consciousness is sealed within them).
the only problem is, how exactly does oro's consciousness' sync up? how does anko chakra oro know everything that original flavour oro did? and are the mentalities of the bodies he took over still in his head, or are they still sealed in the death god with original flavour oro?
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Old 2012-07-11, 06:15   Link #63
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
I thought Oro's revival was actually pretty creative. Since Kabuto had Oro's cells he could be used to regenerate Orochimaru's body with its full powers while his consciousness resides within cursed seals (and he remains in the loop about everything his victim witnesses while his consciousness is sealed within them).
it would have been creative if voldemort hadn't beaten him to it. i honestly think it would have been better if they had actually revived oro using the cells that kabuto had. the cursed seals just scream horcruxes and harry potter isn't exactly a one-hit-wonder, it's probably the most mainstream young adult fantasy in existence and one of the top five most read books of all time. that's the reason why most people find it ridiculous. but personally, i'd rather have oro stay dead. i mean honestly, nobody stays dead in this manga except for jiraiya and maybe azuma and the sandaime. why kill off characters at all only to revive them or edo-tensei them? all these resurrection jutsu are so convenient, the fact that they exist makes you wonder if these characters are still afraid of dying.
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Old 2012-07-11, 06:39   Link #64
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
it would have been creative if voldemort hadn't beaten him to it. i honestly think it would have been better if they had actually revived oro using the cells that kabuto had. the cursed seals just scream horcruxes and harry potter isn't exactly a one-hit-wonder, it's probably the most mainstream young adult fantasy in existence and one of the top five most read books of all time.
Nope. Not even close, even if you toss out religious texts from the rankings.

It doesn't really seem that similar to me - I doubt Kishimoto has ever even read it.
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Old 2012-07-11, 08:06   Link #65
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Nope. Not even close, even if you toss out religious texts from the rankings.

It doesn't really seem that similar to me - I doubt Kishimoto has ever even read it.
i read in a recent article that the number one most-read book is the bible. the second book was about buddhism. hp is in the top five. even twilight made it to the list. but of course the question is, was that survey accurate? i'm not sure. but i made that statement with that article in mind. popularity-wise, hp is more well-known than naruto, not to mention it came out at least two years before naruto was first published. and even if some people haven't read hp, they have most likely seen the movies, while naruto is mostly limited to its anime/manga followers.

i never said the two stories are the same but there are some similarities, especially when it comes to its two main villains and two lead characters. anyway, my point is the cursed seals do remind people of the horcruxes and that's why oro's revival seemed ridiculous.
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Old 2012-07-11, 08:09   Link #66
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^ Why would you judge the events here based on what happened in a different series?
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Old 2012-07-11, 08:35   Link #67
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
I just had a thought....

What if the person Sasuke is talking about is....The First Hokage?!

Think about it. Who could possibly give Sasuke answers to all the questions he seeks about the village? Orochimaru also asked Sasuke what he plans to do when he sees "them?" What if the contents of that scroll contain information about how to release the souls trapped inside The Death God? Perhaps Orochimaru after his battle with the 3rd Hokage decided to learn all he could about the Death God and perhaps use Edo Tensei to gain control of all the Hokage. All 4 of the Hokage's souls are currently sealed in side the Death God.

Orochimaru told Sasuke he was just a kid and questioned why he wanted to speak to "them" suggesting that the people he is talking about come from before his time.

Suigetsu thinks the scroll contains the power to control the entire Ninja world.

If the scroll is related to people and Sasuke needs Orochimaru's help then the Hokage's would be the #1 most valuable Ninja whose power Orochimaru planned to harness and whom Sasuke would want information from.

Add that to the fact that there has been a lot of hype surrounding the 1st Hokage from the use of his cells to empower other Ninja to Uchiha Madara boasting that he is the only one with the power to challenge him.

Sasuke doesn't really trust Tobi at the moment and he still wants answers about the relationship between the Uchiha clan and the village. One or all of the Hokage could give him could give him the knowledge he seeks about the village's history. They could also be used as weapons in the war.
While I think it would be kind of cheap, it would explain why Suigetsu was freaking out a little bit better. Orochimaru undoing the seal would mean getting back the soul arms the Third sealed away, and we now know that lacking them did have effects that lasted into his next body.
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Old 2012-07-11, 08:35   Link #68
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
it would have been creative if voldemort hadn't beaten him to it.[...]
Him and countless others. It reminds you of Voldemort because he's one of the most cliché villain out there, there is nothing new in the concept of soul jar really, it's thousands of years old.
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But then what is the soul that is supposed to be unique, if a perfect copy can be made of a person? It's a bit messed up i think, the author lets us (at least me) believe that there is such a thing as a unique soul of someone and if it's sealed then that individual can't possibly come back unless the seal is broken.
What is a soul indeed, it's always hard to argue about something with no clear definition even in a fictional world where at least we can be reasonably certain it exists in the first place.
Let me ask you this, did Naruto meet his parents? Were they chakra construct deluded into thinking they were real people? If they can be deluded and self aware are they people regardless? If they're people can they be considered the same person they used to be in the flesh? Or are they some kind of digital twins? And if so do they still have souls? And in this case can the soul be copied? Afterall Kushina, Minato and Orochimaru proved the mind is quantifiable and can be copied and uploaded. Is the soul different from the mind then? In what way? And even so is it quantifiable as well?

Let's go further, Orochimaru reached immortality by uploading his mind into the body of others. Did he upload his soul as well or did it "died" with his old body? If so did those new Oro have a new soul as they become a new individual? If so are they different people than their previous iteration? If so can the new Orochimaru be blamed for the acts of his previous self only because he remembers doing them?
In our case it seems the various CSs keep track of Orochimaru's memory in real time considering how much this Oro knows (and I'd like an explanation for that to be honest but oh well) so how different does this new Oro need to be before he's a separate person from his old/previous self? And if he's not different then I return to my first claim : is there a "real" Oro at this point?
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That being said, Sasuke just cured Anko's curse seal problem .
People will start thinking I have something against "the Professor" but it's kind of funny when you think about it
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Old 2012-07-11, 08:50   Link #69
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Which character uses the Japanese term for "them"derogatively??
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Old 2012-07-11, 08:51   Link #70
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Orochimaru and then Sasuke.
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Old 2012-07-11, 08:57   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Lunarskylar View Post
the only problem is, how exactly does oro's consciousness' sync up? how does anko chakra oro know everything that original flavour oro did? and are the mentalities of the bodies he took over still in his head, or are they still sealed in the death god with original flavour oro?
Only Orochimaru's arms were sealed in the Death God when he fought the 3rd Hokage.

When Orochimaru performed the Immortality Jutsu to take over Sasuke's body their consciousness was transported to an alternate dimension that Orochimaru said was inside of him. There the souls of his previous hosts were still trapped. So I'm assuming that once Orochimaru possesses a victims their mind, body and spirit are his forever. Even after he discards their body for another he still has their abilities as they have bounded with the White Snake permanently (meaning if one of his hosts was an Uchiha and he wanted a Hyuuga next Orochimaru could have the power of the Sharingan and Byakugan, he could have any bloodline trait or unique ability he wanted with this jutsu).

Since Orochimaru's "soul" is sealed within his curse seal all of his abilities likely are as well and once revived Orochimaru has all of the knowledge and power he ever gained in life.

One interesting thing to consider is that since Orochimaru took his cells back from Kabuto he probably has the abilities of a Snake Sage as well. I wonder how relevant he will be to the series at this point. Maybe he and Sasuke will have a proper battle this time around.

By the way does anyone else think it's hilarious that Suigetsu, who upon his introduction to the series claimed that he wanted to kill Orochimaru is now terrified now that he is face to face with him?
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Old 2012-07-11, 13:56   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
So Orochimaru can be revived without his soul being there? Now we could have multiple Orochimarus like this, one from each cursed seal, and of course real one if his soul is either placed into a body from the Totsuka sword or somehow Edo-Tensei'd It would be as difficult for them to decide who is the real Orochi as it was for the Naruto clones to decide who can go first on the toilette in the begining of the manga
You know Ero-Senn1n, you have an excellent point there. Gods, can you imagine MULTIPLE Orochimaru's? That would be INSANE! I have this epic vision of multiple Orochimaru's versus Naruto's army of shadow clones. That would be dizzying, to say the least!

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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Confirmed Orochi for Voldemort.
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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
^ Not to mention Oro and Voldy's obsession with tennage BOYS ... .... .... ...........
Orochimort/Voldemaru FOR THE WIN!!!

BTW...

Spoiler for The Origins of Orochimaru:
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Old 2012-07-11, 14:05   Link #73
Lunarskylar
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
Only Orochimaru's arms were sealed in the Death God when he fought the 3rd Hokage.
oh yes my mistake, i meant sealed within the sword of totsaka
however your point about a different dimension answers my question

does any one think that all of these oro developments will be leading to an arc after the war? especially since tobi's about to summon the juubi, a tad prematurely i think

and i just thought, maybe the reason madara wouldn't want to return in an edo body is because how effective a jinchuuriki does an edo body make? it's possibile in some way shown by tobi, but is it the same as using a regular body?
... and does madara really plan to still be the juubi jinchuuriki... unlimited chakra cuz of his edo body, why doesn't he just try using mugen tsukiyomi now?
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Old 2012-07-11, 14:45   Link #74
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
I just had a thought....

What if the person Sasuke is talking about is....The First Hokage?!
I would love it they somehow brought him back and let him duke it out with ET Madara. It would be like Jaga vs Grune The Destroyer... so epic.
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Old 2012-07-11, 15:33   Link #75
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What's with the "what is a soul" discussion? I almost want to play the "a wizard did it" when it comes to the alleged duplication of so-called "souls"...norly, I'm being serious; It makes me wonder if it has anything to do with ninjutsu, not on the obvious sense because it is what it is, but because there's just a lot of ninjutsu techniques that directly deal with the soul or life force and treat it as easily manipulated as chakra itself, going all the way back to Rikudou Sennin's Banbutsu Souzo, using Yang Release techniques to put life into a creation...Speculative, but I want to say things like that didn't exist before ninjutsu existed, and to say "A sage did it" seems like a cheap way to just hand wave it, it does raise a lot of interest behind the exact mechanics of ninjutsu...You can't have a soul without life, but can you have life without a soul? Given that Orochimaru can transfer his soul between bodies, but was resurrected through a duplicate of his consciousness, he's definitely still alive; So my resolution to this (Before I start wrapping my mind too deep in fuxk over the whole "soul" issue), is that Orochimaru is, at the very least, sentient...Given the amount of references to Buddhism in Naruto, and the technical term of "sentient beings" in Buddhism, this makes me believe this is the best description to give to Orochimaru's state of life...

And for being a sentient being, Orochimaru just does not GAF about anything that has happened; It doesn't matter that Sasuke came this close to killing him, or that Itachi sealed the "real" Orochimaru within the Sword of Totsuka, or that Kabuto tried to pull a Starscream in Orochimaru's absence by implanting Orochimaru's DNA into his own body...Still being aware of everything through Anko, Orochimaru just rolls out of bed like it's another Tuesday; Still vying for Sasuke's hawt Uchiha body while walking up to Kabuto still stuck in his Sage mode, getting back his own chakra out of Kabuto as if he were walking to a cabinet to grab a bottle of vitamins...Does Orochimaru even care for anything that's ever transpired since his "death", as far as he's aware from Anko's exploration? He has to have some sort of angle for walking around with Sasuke, helping him out like he's a long time friend with no bad blood; Makes me wonder if there's an agenda in this trip for Orochimaru...He was given a lot of time to just think about things, no doubt...
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Old 2012-07-11, 16:20   Link #76
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I think Kishimoto is just playing a game here, he wants us to believe this is the true Orochimaru, but then later he will reveal that this version of Orochimaru is somehow crippled. Orochi's "nice" behaviour might be due to that, if he know that he's not at full power he would not risk a battle against Sasuke. If this was the real full powered Orochimaru i would expect a much more serious effort to bring him back, something more epic than this simple way of pulling him out of a seal and a piece of flesh. Something like traveling half the world, gathering stuff, then having some fancy ritual. But not this anticlimactic way of bringing him back.



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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Let me ask you this, did Naruto meet his parents? Were they chakra construct deluded into thinking they were real people? If they can be deluded and self aware are they people regardless? If they're people can they be considered the same person they used to be in the flesh? Or are they some kind of digital twins? And if so do they still have souls? And in this case can the soul be copied? Afterall Kushina, Minato and Orochimaru proved the mind is quantifiable and can be copied and uploaded. Is the soul different from the mind then? In what way? And even so is it quantifiable as well?
An even more simple question was there from the beginning of the manga: the kage bunshin which makes a perfect copy of the body so that not even the byakugan can tell the difference, but the author still tells us that there's only one real body, which has the soul. That seemed to be the rule for the copies, so it seems to me that the same rule was applied in case of Naruto's parents which were just temporary copies that vanish as soon as the sealed amount of chakra has run out. Somewhere at the beginning of the manga we are told that chakra is created by the soul and the body, so if there's no soul and no real body then no new chakra should be created, and thus the copy soon runs out of the finite amount of chakra and dies. But Edo Tensei doesn't fit in this either So if i was a physicist trying to find the rules of the Naruto world i should now throw out of the window all the rules which i was thinking are right
One basic rule i was thinking of was that the soul is what guarantees the uniqueness of a person, so that it cannot be copied in a way like Agent Smith was destroying the matrix by copying himself infinitely until he overwrites every other personality there exists in the world. In case of Orochimaru we have seen his soul being transferred from one body to another, after the transfer the original body was not Orochimaru any more.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Did he upload his soul as well or did it "died" with his old body?
Based on Suigetsu's remark about Orochi not being able to use his arms even after he switched to another body i guess his soul had to be the basis of his new existence. But it seems that the CS power that was within Sasuke would give back his soul-arms, otherwise he would not tell Tsunade that he can heal his arms in another way.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
In our case it seems the various CSs keep track of Orochimaru's memory in real time considering how much this Oro knows (and I'd like an explanation for that to be honest but oh well) so how different does this new Oro need to be before he's a separate person from his old/previous self?
It's easiest to say it's a plot hole. Or maybe we should invent some kind of soul-string-theory that handles this issue?
Juugo can interact with nature, also Naruto and Kabuto in sage mode interact with nature. So maybe the CS being sage-like thing makes it possible for different CS-Orochimaru-minds to be in contact through nature itself which surround them at all time. They can resonate with each other on their soul-frequency, or some bullshit like that

The only problem with the idea of real time link is that when Sasuke attacked Orochimaru the CS in Sasuke didn't warn Orochimaru about Sasuke attacking him. But one could say the CS links have a high ping

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
And if he's not different then I return to my first claim : is there a "real" Oro at this point?
Sure he becomes a more scary life form if we can't even point at someone/something and say it is him

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-07-12 at 13:52.
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Old 2012-07-11, 16:32   Link #77
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Naruto has always been ridiculous. Besides, it seems like an Orochimaru thing to have the Cursed Seals to act as a conduit to revive him incase he's "killed/sealed" or doesn't get a new body in time.

So... That's where Orochimaru was hiding, eh? Poor Anko just can't escape her past.

Surprised he didn't kill Kabuto or Anko though I wonder if they'll be left behind. Kabuto seems likely to be dragged along, een with no more dragon/snake mode, but Anko though, she seems to have been used up. There's no reason to bring her since she no longer has a cused seal and Orochimaru is back but they didn't kill her so... Unless Orochimaru decides to keep her around I don't see what they can do with her since she's still passed out.

Also foreshadowing for Orochimaru, no arms is the only reason Sasuke/Itachi beat him. Will he finally be at full power? He did re-absorb all of his chakra that was stored in Anko and Kabuto without killing them.
Why couldn't you stick with Anko being his first dearest student? : /

Isn't that enough reason not to kill? Plus Sasuake and his group are saints! lol
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Old 2012-07-11, 17:16   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
An even more simple question was there from the beginning of the manga: the kage bunshin which makes a perfect copy of the body so that not even the byakugan can tell the difference, but the author still tells us that there's only one real body, which has the soul. That seemed to be the rule for the copies, so it seems to me that the same rule was applied in case of Naruto's parents which were just temporary copies that vanish as soon as the sealed amount of chakra has run out. Somewhere at the beginning of the manga we are told that chakra is created by the soul and the body, so if there's no soul and no real body then no new chakra should be created, and thus the copy soon runs out of the finite amount of chakra and dies.
Chakra is not created from a combination of "soul" and "body". Rather, it is a combination of physical energy and spiritual energy, and while spiritual may sound like "soul" it is in fact closer to knowledge and experience. Physical energy is more akin to the idea of a "soul", but really it has more to do with the energy of "life" within a body (p.s. senjutsu is the "natural energy" that is found in nature).
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Old 2012-07-11, 17:31   Link #79
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Chakra is not created from a combination of "soul" and "body". Rather, it is a combination of physical energy and spiritual energy, and while spiritual may sound like "soul" it is in fact closer to knowledge and experience. Physical energy is more akin to the idea of a "soul", but really it has more to do with the energy of "life" within a body (p.s. senjutsu is the "natural energy" that is found in nature).
Physical was clearly said to be the cells of the body. Then take away from the equation all the cells of the body, so then the spiritual part what else can be than the soul? Your definition is more abstract, but the manga actually does refer concretely to cells of the body.
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Old 2012-07-11, 17:57   Link #80
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part of me hopes it releases the 1st hokage, because I want to see an epic battle of madara vs the 1st.
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