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Old 2012-07-11, 18:21   Link #1041
Utsuro no Hako
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Incorrect, there was zero criminal liability on the player's part, regardless of whether they PK'd in SAO or not - all of that was placed at Kayaba's feet.

Even if they wanted to pursue criminal charges, it would be nearly impossible prove either the act or intent, not to mention the extreme likely scenario that no existing statute would even have jurisdiction over what happened in SAO.
I don't buy it. Killing someone in SAO is no different from hacking into a hospital's computer and changing a patient's prescription to something lethal -- something that could easily be prosecuted as murder. The government doesn't need a law making a specific kind of murder illegal -- as long as they can prove causality and intent, it qualifies under existing laws. And as long as both parties were in Japan, there'd be no issue of jurisdiction. Yeah, Kayaba created the situation where it happened, but he's only responsible for players killed by the system -- the LCs acted under their own volition.

Proving the act might be difficult, but I remember the government knew enough about what happened within Aincrad to identify Kirito as a major frontline player.

A better explanation might be that the government didn't want to prosecute those who took part in the crusade against the LCs and decided "What happens in Aincrad stays in Aincrad."
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Old 2012-07-11, 18:26   Link #1042
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
In order for a crime to occur, there needs to be both actus reus and mens rea, "guilty act" and "guilty mind" so to speak. You would never be able to establish actus reus as no player actually carried out the actual killing act, which is done by NervGear and Kayaba's program. Since the killing of a video game avatar is not a criminal act in and of itself, you'd have a hard time arguing that it's a criminal act, especially when the players in game have no way of verifying that the act of killing an avatar actually kills the player. This leads to the mens rea, you'd never be able to prove that the PKers intended to cause actual harm to their victims, as again there is no way for them to know for sure that's what will happen, nor would you be able to prove that they intended so even if the players believed it.

Basically, it would be a case so shaky that no prosecutor would be crazy enough to attempt to prosecute, and if they do, even a first year law student would be able to shred their case to pieces with his/her eyes closed.



This is another key reason why SAO PK would never be charged, least of all as murder. Cyber-bullying can be prosecuted in some states(not all) because it's been legislated into actual laws, with clause establishing the parameters of the crime. I can assure you that there is no such thing as cyber-murder on the book anywhere, and you cannot be charged with a non-existent crime. This is why in some of the cyber-bullying cases the DA had to resort to charging the defendant with other completely unrelated statutes such as computer fraud laws to try to get them with something, as there were no cyber-bullying laws in their state.
Murder is Murder even if the means are different then normal. I am pretty sure the prosecutors in the US will prosecute LC and not as juvenile but Adults.
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Old 2012-07-11, 18:50   Link #1043
haseo0408
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The volume 10 is the final volume or is there going to be an Alicization Ending? I just want to know if Kirito is going to live. I hope it does, the athor can´t do that to Asuna, that girl deserves the life she dream with him in SAo.
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Old 2012-07-11, 18:56   Link #1044
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Originally Posted by haseo0408 View Post
The volume 10 is the final volume or is there going to be an Alicization Ending? I just want to know if Kirito is going to live. I hope it does, the athor can´t do that to Asuna, that girl deserves the life she dream with him in SAo.
No, volume 10 isn't the final volume. SAO will probably go on for another 3~5 volumes before reaching it's conclusion. I heard the whole matter surrounding Kirito's current predicament will dealt with in volume 10, though.
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Old 2012-07-11, 18:56   Link #1045
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I'd imagine that in most developed, and even emerging countries, there were huge pressures on legislators to tighten up cyber-crime (cyber-bullying,theft, murder and wrongful imprisonment ) laws, in response to the SAO Incident
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:02   Link #1046
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
I don't buy it. Killing someone in SAO is no different from hacking into a hospital's computer and changing a patient's prescription to something lethal -- something that could easily be prosecuted as murder.
It may seem that way to you since you as a reader knows what's going on with 100% certainty, but that is not the case for the players who were stuck in SAO - they did not know whether what Kayaba said was true, nor did they have any way of verifying that fact, nor was there any precedent that would have any one reasonably believe that such a premise is even possible. Imagine yourself playing BF3, and you were told that if you shoot player Bob237 he would die in RL. You ignore the message and proceed to RPG Bob237 into next week, and it turns out someone ended up killing the player behind Bob237 for real - are you now liable for murder?

Your analogy is also flawed - Hacking into a hospital's computer is a criminal act, and changing the prescription to lethal drugs is both an illegal act and shows intent - PKing in a video game is neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
The government doesn't need a law making a specific kind of murder illegal -- as long as they can prove causality and intent, it qualifies under existing laws.
Not quite, causality is also a poor way to word it. Also, as I mentioned in the earlier post - you'll be unable to establish either the act or intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Proving the act might be difficult, but I remember the government knew enough about what happened within Aincrad to identify Kirito as a major frontline player.
They were able to view player stats and whatnot, hard to say what other information they were privy to, and again, these are ultimately immaterial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Murder is Murder even if the means are different then normal. I am pretty sure the prosecutors in the US will prosecute LC and not as juvenile but Adults.
All I can say is that you and Utsuro are failing to take into account the totality of the circumstances, and frankly doesn't knows much about how the criminal justice system(US) works in real life, everything I've said so far is basic knowledge for even first year CJ students :/
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:10   Link #1047
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
All I can say is that neither you nor Utsuro knows much about how the criminal justice system(US) works in real life, everything I've said so far frankly would be basic knowledge for even first year CJ students :/
you are right, i don't know law beyond Law&Order but i do know politics and public pressure. if what happen with LC got out to the public there would be tremendous public pressure to prosecute the surviving members of LC. Prosecutor being politicians first will respond to the public pressure.

as for whether the proscution will win, Who knows.
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:12   Link #1048
haseo0408
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Originally Posted by Aphrah View Post
No, volume 10 isn't the final volume. SAO will probably go on for another 3~5 volumes before reaching it's conclusion. I heard the whole matter surrounding Kirito's current predicament will dealt with in volume 10, though.
Well, the author sid that this was going to be final acr, Kirito and Asuna´s final challenge so I think that it will be 1 more volume, more than that is just dragging for to long. I´ve seen an anime manga, anime, light novel where the protagoninst are such a perfect match for each other; I feel a little sorry for the others girls, they never stood a chance in front of that relationship.
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:16   Link #1049
kyp275
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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
I'd imagine that in most developed, and even emerging countries, there were huge pressures on legislators to tighten up cyber-crime (cyber-bullying,theft, murder and wrongful imprisonment ) laws, in response to the SAO Incident
No doubt they would take a closer look at those after the SAO incidents, but you don't get to retroactively apply laws.

Expecting any current statutes to apply to what happened between players in SAO however, is about as ludicrous as trying assert jurisdiction over a colony of humans living on alpha centauri that were kidnapped by aliens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
you are right, i don't know law beyond Law&Order but i do know politics and public pressure. if what happen with LC got out to the public there would be tremendous public pressure to prosecute the surviving members of LC. Prosecutor being politicians first will respond to the public pressure.

as for whether the proscution will win, Who knows.
Prosecutors also have to work within the framework of the law, I doubt they'd be able to even get an indictment from a grand jury
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:23   Link #1050
maelstormCaT
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Originally Posted by haseo0408 View Post
Well, the author sid that this was going to be final acr, Kirito and Asuna´s final challenge so I think that it will be 1 more volume, more than that is just dragging for to long. I´ve seen an anime manga, anime, light novel where the protagoninst are such a perfect match for each other; I feel a little sorry for the others girls, they never stood a chance in front of that relationship.
Nah, the author said there will be 4-5 novel for Alicization. This final arc is apparently pretty massive.

And about the relationship thing, the author is not that heartless, he even write a harem ending just for lol. check it on bakatsuki; 'There is one but ultimate way'

Spoiler for Spoiler:
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:26   Link #1051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseo0408 View Post
Well, the author sid that this was going to be final acr, Kirito and Asuna´s final challenge so I think that it will be 1 more volume, more than that is just dragging for to long. I´ve seen an anime manga, anime, light novel where the protagoninst are such a perfect match for each other; I feel a little sorry for the others girls, they never stood a chance in front of that relationship.
Yes, this is the final arc; the web version of Alicization consists of 8 chapters, 2 interludes, and the epilogue. Volume 10 only supposedly covered up to and including chapter 4. Chapters 5-8, the 2 interludes, and epilogue will way too much material for 2 volumes to cover, as chapters 7 & 8 are much longer than the rest of the earlier chapters.

Dragging on for too long? Maybe. Of course, you also have to bring the facts that the web version went on for that long, and that and Kawahara plans on adding some extra bits here and there into consideration when you say that.
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:28   Link #1052
kyp275
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^
you can't never have too much SAO
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:29   Link #1053
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
^
you can't never have too much SAO
Exactly. ;p And that's why Progressive is going to be awesome.
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:47   Link #1054
maelstormCaT
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Exactly. ;p And that's why Progressive is going to be awesome.
It better be. But the author is still busy with Allicization. So no rush there.

Spoiler for 10:
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:51   Link #1055
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by maelstormCaT View Post
Spoiler for Spoiler:
*SPEW*

Oh man, I really need to catch up on the novels.... You mind being a bro and filling me in on what volume and chapter this was in?

Speaking of which, somebody said that Asuna got her mom to change her mind about Kirito through some good ol' POWER OF LOVE back a little ago....somebody mind pointing that volume and chapter to me too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphrah View Post
Yes, this is the final arc; the web version of Alicization consists of 8 chapters, 2 interludes, and the epilogue. Volume 10 only supposedly covered up to and including chapter 4. Chapters 5-8, the 2 interludes, and epilogue will way too much material for 2 volumes to cover, as chapters 7 & 8 are much longer than the rest of the earlier chapters.
Wait, so this, the final arc of all of Sword Art Online, has already been completed in a web novel form? So there's a version of SAO's end out there already?

(keep calm......stay calm......*meditates*)
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:53   Link #1056
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Wait, so this, the final arc of all of Sword Art Online, has already been completed in its web novel form? So there's a version of SAO's end out there already?

(keep calm......stay calm.... *meditates*)
Yeah, but there's no translation or summary of it in English. The only way to find out what happens is to ask someone who's fluent in Japanese. Heh. ;p
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Old 2012-07-11, 19:57   Link #1057
Shinji103
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Yeah, but there's no translation or summary of it in English. The only way to find out what happens is to ask someone who's fluent in Japanese. Heh. ;p
Or I could read it myself since I can understand (a good deal of) Japanese. So where do I find this?

(remain calm......deep breaths..... *continues to meditate*)
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Old 2012-07-11, 20:00   Link #1058
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Or I could read it myself since I can understand (a good deal of) Japanese. So where do I find this?

(remain calm......deep breaths..... *continues to meditate*)
No clue. I imagine it'll be easy enough to find if you search for it using the right terms, though.
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Old 2012-07-11, 20:14   Link #1059
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Or I could read it myself since I can understand (a good deal of) Japanese. So where do I find this?

(remain calm......deep breaths..... *continues to meditate*)
It was originally posted on Kawahara's blog, but has long since been taken down after SAO got picked up to be published, so you're gonna have to dig somewhere to find it.
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Old 2012-07-11, 20:15   Link #1060
maelstormCaT
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
*SPEW*

Oh man, I really need to catch up on the novels.... You mind being a bro and filling me in on what volume and chapter this was in?
Vol 9 interlude 1

Stuff happens on that part, which started the whole Aliczation arc. To avoid spoiler, here's the conversation.

Spoiler for Conv:


Major Kirito Asuna moment. I'm normally not one for romance, but that right there is what I called romantic.
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