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Old 2012-07-09, 18:23   Link #21
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I agree with you on that. For myself personally, those few times that I do know the source material, I will often put even my anime-only impressions in spoiler tags just because I know that I'm inescapably a little biased even if I try not to be, and I don't want to give the impression that whatever observations I may make in that case are completely bias-free.
I don't think many (if any) people can completely make a completely bias-free opinion after somewhat knowing it's original source though.
Would that also mean that even a slight complaint about a difference with it's source can be considered to be a spoiler? Like a recent example that i have seen would be in the Arcana Famiglia when someone posted that the anime removed some scenes in episode 2, while adding pointless scenes when the characters were almost saying what their Arcana powers were. Or how they were saying that the anime was probably going for the Nova or Liberta route seeing how much screentime they got in comparison with the other characters

edit: as for source-only spoilers or discussions, some don't have their own thread like La storia della Arcana Famiglia and i don't think enough people played that otome game to warrent an entire discussion thread in the games for it.

late edit; after searching for some older threads i noticed that some eroge/vn adaptations threads had barely anything posted in the games section (Oretsuba with 0 posts or Koichoco with 2 posts) or weren't even created at all (hoshikaka or gift).
So sometimes it depends on the source as well

Last edited by hyl; 2012-07-09 at 18:46.
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Old 2012-07-09, 19:13   Link #22
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I don't think many (if any) people can completely make a completely bias-free opinion after somewhat knowing it's original source though.
Would that also mean that even a slight complaint about a difference with it's source can be considered to be a spoiler? Like a recent example that i have seen would be in the Arcana Famiglia when someone posted that the anime removed some scenes in episode 2, while adding pointless scenes when the characters were almost saying what their Arcana powers were. Or how they were saying that the anime was probably going for the Nova or Liberta route seeing how much screentime they got in comparison with the other characters
Well, you know personally the way I like to do it from our experiences with Mashiro-iro, where we took all our game-based speculation to the game thread. If comparing to something that has already happened, it's okay behind clearly-marked spoiler tags. (So your comparison example would be okay behind a spoiler tag.) If you're using the source material to speculate about what's going to happen, though, then you should go to the source material thread.

Now I will say that I personally show a little bit of leeway here in cases where people make comments that don't give away any plot details at all, or also cases where the comments are just anime-based speculation where even knowing the source material won't help you. Even people who know the source material can participate regularly in anime threads, they just to be careful not give away and hints about what will happen, or to use their source knowledge to bias other viewers.

Any post that uses the source material to reveal information that has not yet been revealed in the adaptation is considered an inappropriate spoiler, and these are not allowed in anime threads even behind spoiler tags.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
edit: as for source-only spoilers or discussions, some don't have their own thread like La storia della Arcana Famiglia and i don't think enough people played that otome game to warrent an entire discussion thread in the games for it.

late edit; after searching for some older threads i noticed that some eroge/vn adaptations threads had barely anything posted in the games section (Oretsuba with 0 posts or Koichoco with 2 posts) or weren't even created at all (hoshikaka or gift).
So sometimes it depends on the source as well
I can't necessarily speak for every case, but I am hoping this just means that there weren't very many people interested in discussing the source. That wouldn't mean it was okay to discuss the source in the anime thread, as this is off-topic -- even if the game thread "isn't as popular". Anime discussion threads are not mean to be "hangouts" for fans of the franchise, but rather places where people can discuss the anime specifically.
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Old 2012-07-09, 19:29   Link #23
hyl
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No i am not implying that spoilers should be allowed but it seems that some people aren't aware that some adaptations have their own thread for discussions on it's original source. Which i tried to explain with examples in my previous post that some threads were hardly used or even created.
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Old 2012-07-09, 19:39   Link #24
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
No i am not implying that spoilers should be allowed but it seems that some people aren't aware that some adaptations have their own thread for discussions on it's original source. Which i tried to explain with examples in my previous post that some threads were hardly used or even created.
Well, I guess it would be nice if there were a good way to make this more visible. I suppose we can update the first post of the thread to ensure the link is in there... but my experience in general is that people don't generally read even the first post. In fact, I'm not sometimes sure if some people even bother reading anything before they post in a thread (which is a bit of a bad habit I wish would change).

Any ideas of how we could improve this?
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Old 2012-07-09, 19:51   Link #25
Reckoner
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I always wondered why forums don't integrate something like you must take a quiz before you post (So you can register without doing it, but you can't post until you take the quiz), which basically just asks some of the basic questions about the forum rules in a multiple choice format. Doesn't have to be long or anything, but it ensures people know what's up and doesn't allow for ignorance.

Well I suppose people don't want to hassle for these sorts of things .
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Old 2012-07-09, 19:51   Link #26
hyl
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I agree that quite some people don't tend to read the rules, first posts (at most a few posts before they have posted) or the stickies.

What about the same kind of notification (or something else that can be more easily noticed) that was used for the banner voting contest not long ago but this time on the (maybe updated) policy of spoilers? While i still don't think everyone will read it, but atleast you reached more people this way.

edit: while i was previously only mentioning VN's, it generally applies to any untranslated work (VN's tend to be less translated than novels or manga's though). Even the popular Steins;Gate 's Q&A , spoiler and the game thread was not used that much during it's airing, most likely because it wasn't translated back then. Eventhough I am pretty sure that some people who did read the VN made some hints towards the VN's plot in the episode discussions.

The problem is that some people who are fans of the original work tend to go too much into fanboy/fangirl mode and sometimes forget that they are consciously posting spoilers while it's a development that is generally known (like what i tend to do when it comes to romance anime endings like for example clannad in a thread not discussing clannad but a different romance serie just as a comparison).
I think this happened alot in the fate/zero threads because most people there assumed that others have already have seen atleast Fate/Stay night anime
, while some newcomers started to watch it because this is supposed to be the prequel of it. So that's why i saw tons of FSN anime or even game spoilers like Heaven's feel developments.

As for reporting, i don't know how many people report things but i don't think lots of people actually use that button with the exclamation mark under someone's avatar for reporting spoilers.
I have to agree that the spoiler policy might need to be either enforced more or have to become more strict.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-07-09 at 20:25.
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Old 2012-07-09, 20:33   Link #27
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I always wondered why forums don't integrate something like you must take a quiz before you post (So you can register without doing it, but you can't post until you take the quiz), which basically just asks some of the basic questions about the forum rules in a multiple choice format. Doesn't have to be long or anything, but it ensures people know what's up and doesn't allow for ignorance.

Well I suppose people don't want to hassle for these sorts of things .
Haha -- I don't know how feasible this is, but I have to admit I sort of like the idea.

(choose the best and/or most accurate answer)

1. Are you a bot? Yes / No / Not Sure

2. Are you really sure you're not a bot? Yes / No / Now that you mention it...

3. Somebody is speculating in an anime thread and they make a comment that you know from the source material will be proven wrong in a later episode. Do you:

a) Correct this grave injustice! Someone is wrong on the Internet!
b) Let them know they're idiotic and to try harder with their horrible guesses.
c) Give them a hint that they're looking in the wrong direction so they don't get any wrong ideas.
d) Let the incorrect speculation pass; they'll be proven wrong in time.

4. People are dissing your favourite anime series because they don't know how good it really is since they don't know the god-like virtue of the source material. Do you:

a) Point out in no uncertain terms that their opinion is objectively invalid.
b) Attack their credibility and accuse them of being a troll.
c) Report them to the mods.
d) Put forward a reasoned rebuttal for the arguments presented explaining why you feel differently, without revealing any future events.

5. In an anime thread, an anime-only viewer posed a question that can only be answered via source material spoilers for future content. Someone else already answered their question in the thread, but the answer contains errors. Do you:

a) Correct the error so that incorrect information doesn't get out there.
b) Report the reply containing the answer, because it contains spoilers.
c) Report the post containing the question, because they're asking for spoilers that aren't allowed.
d) Post in the thread to tell people to go to another thread for that question.

6. In an anime thread, someone makes a speculative comment that you know will actually proven correct based on your knowledge of the source material.

a) Report the post for containing a spoiler.
b) Post in the thread to tell the person that they're right.
c) Post in the thread to tell the person to hide their spoiler.
d) Ignore it.

7. You just watched an anime episode, and want to speculate about what will happen in the future based on your knowledge of the source material. The series does not have its own sub-forum. Do you:

a) Post the speculation in the anime thread.
b) Post the speculation in the anime thread behind spoiler tags.
c) Post the speculation in the anime thread behind double spoiler tags to make sure people are extra warned.
d) Post the speculation in the source material thread.

8. By the way, you are a bot, right? Yes / Maybe / I Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny / No, You're A Bot / I don't think so, Tim.


(I could write this survey all day... )
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Old 2012-07-09, 21:02   Link #28
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
[mod edit: snip of quiz above]
Even if people took a quiz that doesn't mean that they will keep abiding those rules. It sounds like the copyright infringement video and quiz that you have to watch and answer correctly after uploading a video with not allowed content. Some people will still do it even if they get warned (eventhough youtube has the 3 strikes = out rule as well)
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Old 2012-07-09, 21:06   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Even if people took a quiz that doesn't mean that they will keep abiding those rules. It sounds like the copyright infringement video and quiz that you have to watch and answer correctly after uploading a video with not allowed content. Some people will still do it even if they get warned (eventhough youtube has the 3 strikes = out rule as well)
Well, sure, but just to be clear, this particular one was meant mostly as a joke (if you couldn't tell by my often-stupid answers).

But that aside, the whole point of making people go through this exercise would only be to make sure they can't claim they didn't know. That's the same reason the Youtube copyright quiz exists. "Wilful Infringement" is even more blatant than doing it out of ignorance; this way people have no excuse. Of course I don't think it would totally stop people from doing the wrong thing, even if they should know better.
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Old 2012-07-09, 21:30   Link #30
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
But that aside, the whole point of making people go through this exercise would only be to make sure they can't claim they didn't know.
Perhaps a better quiz would focus on the Forum Rules and ask questions that require that the Rules be read? Not just about spoilers, but about other issues like linking to sites with licensed content, etc., etc. I'm not sure I'd require passing the quiz just to post in some forums like Suggestions though. There's always the person who searches for some topic on Google, discovers AS, and then posts a Suggestions request. On the other hand, it's probably easier to build a system where you have to pass the quiz in order to have an account at all, regardless of the purpose for having it.

Just thinking out loud here...
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Old 2012-07-10, 01:14   Link #31
Marcus H.
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A quiz that involves the Forum Rules is just shoving the rules into the face of the users. We all know how people hate being compelled to recognize the presence of something that should have been implied or left in the background to do its work instead. It also questions the maturity of the users, who should have known how to act in the forums and/or have read the rules at least once.
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Old 2012-07-10, 07:01   Link #32
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
A quiz that involves the Forum Rules is just shoving the rules into the face of the users. We all know how people hate being compelled to recognize the presence of something that should have been implied or left in the background to do its work instead.
Well, when you sign up, we do shove the rules into the face of the users. But, they treat it like a License Agreement and skip through it. Then they get "surprised" when they get warnings, infractions, and bans. (Perhaps it's too long and we need some sort of Executive Summary, but it's not like it's really that long.)

Now granted, not everyone is like that. We have a number of users who spent some time scoping out the forums first, playing attention to how things work around here, and observing the rules as carefully as they can.

That being said, a lot of the main offenders in terms of breaking the rules are actually long-time users who clearly should know better by now, but just either "forget" or "don't care". They may hate having to "recognize the presence of something that should have been implied"... but clearly the implication isn't working...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
It also questions the maturity of the users, who should have known how to act in the forums and/or have read the rules at least once.
That's what I'd like to think, but...


Well, like I said before, the quiz is just one idea being thrown about. We'd have to see how/whether we could even implement it if we're really going to do it.
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Old 2012-07-10, 07:02   Link #33
SeijiSensei
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Just curious, Marcus, did you read the Forum Rules before you began posting here?

Maybe we should rerun the poll I did back in 2008:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=72909
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Old 2012-07-10, 07:08   Link #34
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Maybe we should rerun the poll I did back in 2008:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=72909
Heh -- I forgot about that thread. Based on some of the comments there, I guess maybe the first line we should have in the rule box when signing up is:

"WARNING! Some of our rules are really not like other forums!"

...and then start with key differences (i.e. licensing rules, signature rules, spoiler rules, no pointless threads/search before creating a new thread/bump old threads rather than create new, etc.).

Some of the comments in there are like "meh, all forum rules are the same", but if anyone actually looked even briefly at our rules they would see that we don't follow the usual template already (though I guess some other sites followed our template later). Indeed, the most common areas for warnings/infractions, particularly for new members, are those areas where our forum rules differ from other sites.
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Old 2012-07-10, 08:06   Link #35
larethian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
That being said, a lot of the main offenders in terms of breaking the rules are actually long-time users who clearly should know better by now, but just either "forget" or "don't care".
That's somewhat surprising (I never really noticed that) though I can offer a few possible reasons for this:
1. They hope that their post slips through the mods
2. They need to show off their source knowledge which is like a status kind of thing, especially those who merely got their knowledge from spoilers from the LN/manga threads rather than the actual work itself. Of course, they often end up looking dumb and annoying (imo). On a sidenote, there are some who claim to love to be spoiled and a few of them (not all of course), use these spoiler answers to the questions they asked in the LN thread to spoil others.
3. They are a little slow upstairs and need a few bans to get the message
4. They are kids (literally-speaking)
5. They are just raging unintentionally and accidentally venture into future spoiler territory while making comparisons as they see their favorite work getting destroyed by the animation studio and staff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Just curious, Marcus, did you read the Forum Rules before you began posting here?

Maybe we should rerun the poll I did back in 2008:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=72909
I actually read them in entirety after my first infraction and a few deletions from my over-enthusiasm when I first came out of lurking (not that I visit AS often before that though). Hardly have a problem ever since. In fact I also realized after some time that when you ramble less, you seem much smarter and wiser. Though sometimes (rare these days) I also have the urge to inform or promote things that one can look forward to without spoiling the content.

Over time, I've also come to appreciate the strict spoiler policy, because I really hate getting spoiled on some stuff. Can you imagine knowing who's the 'Another' in the 'Another' because you accidentally open the spoilers? I guess that will really suck but some people just don't get it.

I'm not sure about the new tags, but for the old tags, even with labeled tags, spoilers in spoiler tags are not necessarily safe. Because when I click 'quote' when I just want to reply to the non-spoiler parts of a post, the spoiler comes into plain view. This actually made me avoid LN threads that I haven't caught up with, even when people are being considerate to use spoiler tags, as I often accidentally see really bad-ass spoilers by clicking on 'quote'.
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Old 2012-07-10, 19:29   Link #36
Marcus H.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei
Just curious, Marcus, did you read the Forum Rules before you began posting here?
Well, my very first warning is due to "inconsiderate behavior", which is really up to the mods' judgment, while the other one is carelessness on my part. I admit that I forgot whether I did read the rules or not.

That aside, I think I haven't done anything bad enough to warrant an infraction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian
Over time, I've also come to appreciate the strict spoiler policy, because I really hate getting spoiled on some stuff. Can you imagine knowing who's the 'Another' in the 'Another' because you accidentally open the spoilers? I guess that will really suck but some people just don't get it.
I remember that particular spoiler about Deadman Wonderland and the other "xxx dies" spoilertrolling, lol.
As for me, I often tend to spoil myself on future plot points, especially in Shana Final (I already know what happens on the last episode despite having watched only six episodes of 24). I dunno, I think it's a completely different experience to hear spoilers and watch the thing itself.
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Old 2012-07-10, 20:00   Link #37
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Just curious, Marcus, did you read the Forum Rules before you began posting here?

Maybe we should rerun the poll I did back in 2008:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=72909
It seems I've voted in that poll. If the poll is repeated my answer would be already different. Have read the rules several times regarding signatures, and even politely asked a mod about it. Because getting "bunnied" is one of the worst possible things that could happen in this place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
Over time, I've also come to appreciate the strict spoiler policy, because I really hate getting spoiled on some stuff. Can you imagine knowing who's the 'Another' in the 'Another' because you accidentally open the spoilers? I guess that will really suck but some people just don't get it.
Have come to appreciate that too. In places like Facebook anime clubs, or other forums where spoiler policies are nonexistent or only loosely enforced - I don't read anime topics in those places at all if I have not watched the latest episode.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2012-07-11 at 10:13.
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Old 2012-07-11, 20:03   Link #38
Marcus H.
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Turns out that I did not participate in the poll.

Anyway, as an active contributor to several anime series wikis, I have sort of become some kind of walking spoiler to many, so I'm kinda desensitized to the concept of spoilers. And besides, I believe that a spoiler that you've heard about a certain anime series is different from a spoiler that you've seen about said series, and that might not even affect my feelings about the scene when I have witnessed it myself.

Fortunately, I'm not the only one who has the same mentality regarding spoilers.
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Old 2012-07-11, 21:07   Link #39
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Turns out that I did not participate in the poll.

Anyway, as an active contributor to several anime series wikis, I have sort of become some kind of walking spoiler to many, so I'm kinda desensitized to the concept of spoilers. And besides, I believe that a spoiler that you've heard about a certain anime series is different from a spoiler that you've seen about said series, and that might not even affect my feelings about the scene when I have witnessed it myself.

Fortunately, I'm not the only one who has the same mentality regarding spoilers.
Whenever I read someone write that they don't get the concept of spoilers and/or how a spoiler can really hurt a person's appreciation for something, I instantly think of this:




Now for those of you 25 or under, and/or those of you who were never much into Star Trek, that video alone might not convey what I mean, so let me explain further.

This cliffhanger aired back in the early 90s, before the internet was widely available. As a kid, I had no choice but to "not know" what would happen next. People did indeed have to wait those three months to find out what would happen next. And that turned "Part 2" into an insanely-anticipated event. Being left in suspense, being left in anticipation - That can often be very rewarding on the whole.

But suppose I knew somebody at Paramount who had insider information on what would happen next. That person tells me what would happen next, and so now that anticipation/suspense is greatly lowered. "Part 2" is not as much of a big event any more because I know what's going to happen in it. Sure, I'll still watch it anyway, and I'll probably still enjoy it at least a little bit, as I am and was a big Star Trek fan. But the emotions and the excitement aren't the same, because there really is a certain fun in "not knowing" what's going to happen next.


"Anything can happen in the WWF!" - Vince McMahon Jr.

Unpredictability is inherently exciting, imo. Not every anime manages to be unpredictable, but for those that do, I can definitely see how spoiling something can really take the fun away.
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Old 2012-07-11, 23:48   Link #40
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Whenever I read someone write that they don't get the concept of spoilers and/or how a spoiler can really hurt a person's appreciation for something, I instantly think of this:
Longer. Summer. Ever. Man, that show (and entire franchise) was really good at cliffhangers, and experiencing that during the airing was excruciating, but also very satisfying.

There are definitely shows where spoilers can ruin your experience. One example that's famous for me is D.C. II, where the entire plot relies on a plot twist that you're not supposed to know until right near the end of the story. But, due to a complete lack of consideration, both ANN and Wikipedia decided to include the major plot twist right in the show's premise, thus completely ruining the surprise for countless people. What is gained by doing that to people?

I guess the thinking is that people want to be brought up to the same level as those who experienced the original work, without the actual experience of going through the original work. And I can't help but wonder if that cheapens the whole thing somehow. You've never experienced the narrative, but you're only part of the narrative around the narrative. It's like watching the cast commentary track without ever watching the show. There have been times when I've experienced the source material before the adaptation, and that does give you a different perspective... but I still treasure that first-time experience. And I guess that's why I try to be more careful about not randomly spoiling people on things they should experience for themselves. To me, it's definitely part of the fun.

Then again, as I've said before, all of us on the staff are pretty much screwed as far as spoilers go, so I've learned to appreciate the experience a watching a show even if I'm ruined on some of the twists. I do think it's still doable... but it's not quite the same, at least in some cases.

Neither here nor there, but just my own personal view. In the end, as far as Forum Policy goes, we will accommodate as many different preferences/types of viewers as possible (including those who want a place where they can receive spoilers, if they want them).
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