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maelstormCaT · 2012-07-11, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinji103

*SPEW*

Oh man, I really need to catch up on the novels....

You mind being a bro and filling me in on what volume and chapter this was in?

Vol 9 interlude 1

Stuff happens on that part, which started the whole Aliczation arc. To avoid spoiler, here's the conversation.

Spoiler for Conv:

Major Kirito Asuna moment. I'm normally not one for romance, but that right there is what I called romantic.

Wild Goose · 2012-07-11, 20:15

Regarding guilt levels etc, as this is a free-fire zone:

Spoiler for Ultimate fate of PKers:

As for the killing itself, at least under British Law, which I studied, you'd need to prove a certain chain of causation, and pull in the Reasonable Man test for loads of things. Is Kayaba's assertation that death ingame is reasonable and believable? - among other things.

As for mens rea, the barest minimum you need is to prove the intent to cause grievous bodily harm, and the actus rea is the act itself. Mens rea may not be provable, but it should be possible to establish causation by using server logs - time D PKs V is recorded and shows cause of death, and system establishes D is the killer, then in the real world the NervGear kills the player.

But since mens rea may not be provable, you'd get Manslaughter instead. (i'm simplifying a lot from what I studied.)

kyp275 · 2012-07-11, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

As for the killing itself, at least under British Law, which I studied, you'd need to prove a certain chain of causation, and pull in the Reasonable Man test for loads of things. Is Kayaba's assertation that death ingame is reasonable and believable? - among other things.

bingo, and I don't believe any court or jury will consider it to be either, at least pre-SAO, as by any reasonable measure it's an completely unprecedented event that puts the players in an impossible situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

As for mens rea, the barest minimum you need is to prove the intent to cause grievous bodily harm, and the actus rea is the act itself. Mens rea may not be provable, but it should be possible to establish causation by using server logs - time D PKs V is recorded and shows cause of death, and system establishes D is the killer, then in the real world the NervGear kills the player.

But since mens rea may not be provable, you'd get Manslaughter instead. (i'm simplifying a lot from what I studied.)

even then they'd have to show that it rises to the level of gross/criminal negligence, which is a hard sell considering the extraordinary circumstances.

Utsuro no Hako · 2012-07-11, 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyp275

It may seem that way to you since you as a reader knows what's going on with 100% certainty, but that is not the case for the players who were stuck in SAO - they did not know whether what Kayaba said was true, nor did they have any way of verifying that fact, nor was there any precedent that would have any one reasonably believe that such a premise is even possible. Imagine yourself playing BF3, and you were told that if you shoot player Bob237 he would die in RL. You ignore the message and proceed to RPG Bob237 into next week, and it turns out someone ended up killing the player behind Bob237 for real - are you now liable for murder?

In that situation the player doesn't know anything but what someone in the game told them. But the SAO players know they're stuck in the game and no one in the real world is getting them out. That doesn't make sense unless Kayaba's threat is credible. And there's strong evidence that the LCs believed it due ot the simple fact that they didn't kill themselves to escape the game.

Quote:

Your analogy is also flawed - Hacking into a hospital's computer is a criminal act, and changing the prescription to lethal drugs is both an illegal act and shows intent -

They are illegal acts on their own which you probably would be prosecuted for, but you'd still be prosecuted for the murder itself, and you would be even if hacking the system and altering the prescription were legal.

Quote:

PKing in a video game is neither.

Not when SAO started, but we have no way of knowing what laws the Diet came up with in the intervening two years.

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Not quite, causality is also a poor way to word it. Also, as I mentioned in the earlier post - you'll be unable to establish either the act or intent.

They were able to view player stats and whatnot, hard to say what other information they were privy to, and again, these are ultimately immaterial.

If the stats include "Player X (IP: 256.001.100.001) killed Player Y (IP: 187.123.001.020)" or there were witnesses within the game, then prosecutors absolutely could prove the act. Then it's just a matter of convincing the jury that a reasonable person in that situation would've believed Kayaba -- and I'm sure there are plenty of SAO players who'd be willing to offer their testimony on that count.

Wild Goose · 2012-07-11, 21:55

Uh, no. Negligence wouldn't arise in a murder trial - at least, a British trial, which is the paradigm I approach from - but that would be involved in the various inevitable lawsuits Argas would be tied up in - under British law, they're vicariously liable for all the shit Kayaba pulled while employed by them.

Manslaughter may be an easier sell than murder, though most likely a prosecutor would prefer to go after Kayaba because it'd be easier to finger him, as opposed to youths who chant, "We thought it was just a game!"

That said depending how the judge directs the jury, and how the prosecution makes the case and the defence plays things out... In a jury trial, anything could happen. Contract tends to be a bit more clear cut, which wasrobably why I liked contract a lot more.

Also, Jack Thompson would have had a field day with this poaching-murder-sex simulator game.

EvI · 2012-07-11, 22:16

hm does the blond girl that appeared with kirito asuna with a new avatar? or is she a completely diferent person?

edit: if it is her what happened?why didn't she reconized kirito since his avatar has the same looks that his body in the real world?

kyp275 · 2012-07-11, 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

In that situation the player doesn't know anything but what someone in the game told them. But the SAO players know they're stuck in the game and no one in the real world is getting them out. That doesn't make sense unless Kayaba's threat is credible. And there's strong evidence that the LCs believed it due ot the simple fact that they didn't kill themselves to escape the game.

maybe, maybe not, and that's part of the issue - there are so much reasonable doubt to go around you can probably build a bridge to the moon with it. Also, many players still believed that they'll be rescued eventually, hence why they stayed in the starting town and never left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

They are illegal acts on their own which you probably would be prosecuted for, but you'd still be prosecuted for the murder itself, and you would be even if hacking the system and altering the prescription were legal.

you've completely missed the point, without those you cannot establish murder in the first place. You're more the welcome to have your own definition of murder, but when it comes to a court of law, your personal definition doesn't mean anything.

Also, you can't just say you'd still be prosecuted for murder if hacking and altering prescription were legal, it'd be akin to saying someone would be prosecuted for murder even though shooting people in the head with a gun was legal, it'd be a factually impossible situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

Not when SAO started, but we have no way of knowing what laws the Diet came up with in the intervening two years.

I point you to Ex Post Facto law - which are prohibited in Article 1 of the US Constitution, and Article 39 of the Japanese Constitution. Also attempting to apply laws passed during the two years where the SAO players were locked into the game and cut off from the rest of the world would also violate Due Process - as there is no way for them to know of the new laws that were passed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

If the stats include "Player X (IP: 256.001.100.001) killed Player Y (IP: 187.123.001.020)" or there were witnesses within the game, then prosecutors absolutely could prove the act. Then it's just a matter of convincing the jury that a reasonable person in that situation would've believed Kayaba -- and I'm sure there are plenty of SAO players who'd be willing to offer their testimony on that count.

And any halfway decent lawyer would rip those witnesses apart. Time and time again in the novel we were reminded on how nobody really know for sure if what Kayaba said is true, Kirito himself included.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Uh, no. Negligence wouldn't arise in a murder trial - at least, a British trial, which is the paradigm I approach from

yup, though I was referring to the possible manslaughter charges with the negligence part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Also, Jack Thompson would have had a field day with this poaching-murder-sex simulator game.

oh boy, that guy....

Netto Azure · 2012-07-11, 23:21

Will in game recordings be possible to use in court as evidence? or is the possibility of fabrication too high for that?

Then again old Aincrad was destroyed so most data was wiped out...

black_cat1 · 2012-07-11, 23:33

Er, I'm sorry if this is trouble for you guys but any1 can tell me the flow of story after vol 7, vol 8 is collection of side stories and vol 9's beginning is really confusing me. Honestly, I do not know how to keep track of the story after vol 7

Xellos-_^ · 2012-07-11, 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by black_cat1

Er, I'm sorry if this is trouble for you guys but any1 can tell me the flow of story after vol 7, vol 8 is collection of side stories and vol 9's beginning is really confusing me. Honestly, I do not know how to keep track of the story after vol 7

7 & 8 as you said are side stories, some happen after vol6 (caliber) some before (Murder).

As for Vol9, just skip prologue 1 and start with prologue 2. Go back to prologue 1 after finishing ch1. makes more sense that way.

kyp275 · 2012-07-11, 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

Will in game recordings be possible to use in court as evidence? or is the possibility of fabrication too high for that?

Then again old Aincrad was destroyed so most data was wiped out...

we don't know what kind of data the monitoring team was able to gather from the server, so it's hard to say whether they have any relevance or are even admissable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by black_cat1

Er, I'm sorry if this is trouble for you guys but any1 can tell me the flow of story after vol 7, vol 8 is collection of side stories and vol 9's beginning is really confusing me. Honestly, I do not know how to keep track of the story after vol 7

vol.9 is the beginning of the Alicization arc, which is the longest and final arc of SAO, and is about Kirito's experience in Underworld, an accelerated digital construct similiar to the one you see in AW.

black_cat1 · 2012-07-12, 00:51

Uhm, so vol 9 start right after vol 6?

Quote:

As for Vol9, just skip prologue 1 and start with prologue 2. Go back to prologue 1 after finishing ch1. makes more sense that way.

Thank for the guide Xellos, you rly save me

kyp275 · 2012-07-12, 01:02

naw, vol 6 is the end of the GGO arc, followed by Mother's Rosario(vol.7), which is a one volume (and very good) story, 8 is a collection of short stories, then the start of Alicization arc w/ vol.9

black_cat1 · 2012-07-12, 02:55

One more question, the side story "There is but one ultimate way" is after vol 8 right? Is it right before vol 9?

Netto Azure · 2012-07-12, 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by black_cat1

One more question, the side story "There is but one ultimate way" is after vol 8 right? Is it right before vol 9?

It's supposed to be Post-Alicization (Hence Alice being there) but it's apparently non-canon according to the Author.

We won't really know if it fits until the series ends lol. XD

maelstormCaT · 2012-07-12, 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

It's supposed to be Post-Alicization (Hence Alice being there) but it's apparently non-canon according to the Author.

We won't really know if it fits until the series ends lol. XD

he already declare it as non cannon.
Hence the author probably already got a general idea on how he'll end Allicization.

btw, anyone read vol 10 yet?
Can someone summarize it in one go? I really wanna know what happened to Kirito.
Who's Alice anyway? A sentient AI like Yui?

ps: ugh, too many threads. Why do we need thread about spoiler & speculations for LN reader if we have this LN thread anyway? soo confusing.

Netto Azure · 2012-07-12, 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by maelstormCaT

ps: ugh, too many threads. Why do we need thread about spoiler & speculations for LN reader if we have this LN thread anyway? soo confusing.

This is for Vol 10+, the other thread is "OH NOEZ THEY LEFT OUT THAT PART IN DA ANIMU" talk I think.

But yeah waiting for some plot summaries also. :3

larethian · 2012-07-12, 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by maelstormCaT

he already declare it as non cannon.
Hence the author probably already got a general idea on how he'll end Allicization.

btw, anyone read vol 10 yet?
Can someone summarize it in one go? I really wanna know what happened to Kirito.
Who's Alice anyway? A sentient AI like Yui?

ps: ugh, too many threads. Why do we need thread about spoiler & speculations for LN reader if we have this LN thread anyway? soo confusing.

"spoiler & speculations for LN reader" is for LN readers to speculate how the anime will adapt the future events not yet covered by the anime

com_gwp · 2012-07-12, 05:11

Wait, what's this I'm reading about Alicization being the final arc? Is it true?

I could've sworn I read somewhere that there was going to be one more arc after it. No, I can't remember the source of that though.

Esebian · 2012-07-12, 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by maelstormCaT

Who's Alice anyway? A sentient AI like Yui?

yeah she is, as stated in Vol9 Prologue2, where u can read that ALICE means Artificial Labile Intelligence (although we dont know till now what the C and the E mean), but imo she is even a step wider than Yui cuz remember: originally Yui was under the orders of Cardinal, while u can clearly see that Alice isnt affected by the Taboo Index in any way from the beginning on, so she is a truelier (great fictional word XD) AI than Yui

Quote:

Originally Posted by com_gwp

Wait, what's this I'm reading about Alicization being the final arc? Is it true?

it is the final arc indeed, but the author now started SAO : Progressive, which retells the story of Vol1 floorwise (dunno if he plans to write every floor, would be awesome ^^) so he will be around for some more time

2012-07-11, 20:15	Link #1062
Wild Goose Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chained to a paperwork-laden desk in Cadia Age: 27	Regarding guilt levels etc, as this is a free-fire zone: Spoiler for Ultimate fate of PKers: It's generally a moot point, as most PKers tend to get killed in self defense. Players who've killed ingame are counseled and undergo psychiatric evaluation - those like Kirito, who kill in self defense, are let off. Those PKers like Laughing Coffin survivors are kept for a year of observation, part mental hospital, part juvie-ish detention area. As for the killing itself, at least under British Law, which I studied, you'd need to prove a certain chain of causation, and pull in the Reasonable Man test for loads of things. Is Kayaba's assertation that death ingame is reasonable and believable? - among other things. As for mens rea, the barest minimum you need is to prove the intent to cause grievous bodily harm, and the actus rea is the act itself. Mens rea may not be provable, but it should be possible to establish causation by using server logs - time D PKs V is recorded and shows cause of death, and system establishes D is the killer, then in the real world the NervGear kills the player. But since mens rea may not be provable, you'd get Manslaughter instead. (i'm simplifying a lot from what I studied.)

2012-07-11, 21:55	Link #1065
Wild Goose Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chained to a paperwork-laden desk in Cadia Age: 27	Uh, no. Negligence wouldn't arise in a murder trial - at least, a British trial, which is the paradigm I approach from - but that would be involved in the various inevitable lawsuits Argas would be tied up in - under British law, they're vicariously liable for all the shit Kayaba pulled while employed by them. Manslaughter may be an easier sell than murder, though most likely a prosecutor would prefer to go after Kayaba because it'd be easier to finger him, as opposed to youths who chant, "We thought it was just a game!" That said depending how the judge directs the jury, and how the prosecution makes the case and the defence plays things out... In a jury trial, anything could happen. Contract tends to be a bit more clear cut, which wasrobably why I liked contract a lot more. Also, Jack Thompson would have had a field day with this poaching-murder-sex simulator game.

2012-07-11, 22:16	Link #1066
EvI Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Brazil	hm does the blond girl that appeared with kirito asuna with a new avatar? or is she a completely diferent person? edit: if it is her what happened?why didn't she reconized kirito since his avatar has the same looks that his body in the real world?

2012-07-11, 23:33	Link #1069
black_cat1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007	Er, I'm sorry if this is trouble for you guys but any1 can tell me the flow of story after vol 7, vol 8 is collection of side stories and vol 9's beginning is really confusing me. Honestly, I do not know how to keep track of the story after vol 7

2012-07-12, 01:02	Link #1073
kyp275 ZA ZOMBIE!!! Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...	naw, vol 6 is the end of the GGO arc, followed by Mother's Rosario(vol.7), which is a one volume (and very good) story, 8 is a collection of short stories, then the start of Alicization arc w/ vol.9

2012-07-12, 02:55	Link #1074
black_cat1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007	One more question, the side story "There is but one ultimate way" is after vol 8 right? Is it right before vol 9?

2012-07-12, 05:11	Link #1079
com_gwp Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	Wait, what's this I'm reading about Alicization being the final arc? Is it true? I could've sworn I read somewhere that there was going to be one more arc after it. No, I can't remember the source of that though.