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Old 2012-07-10, 07:00   Link #29601
Jan-Poo
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There's not much that can be said about Erika's revision, I doubt Ryuukishi even thought about that since there was no real need for it.

I guess it would have been something on the lines of what Battler used at the end of EP4, but not as bad as "small bombs".
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Old 2012-07-10, 13:28   Link #29602
Thunder Book
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I think even Bern says that Erika's theory is ridiculous, but technically possible. So really whatever it was doesn't matter.
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Old 2012-07-10, 13:41   Link #29603
Renall
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Actually, you can't verify the event happened, even if you're standing in the shattered crater on an island you know for a fact to be Rokkenjima.

Can you prove a person who left no trace of his or her existence ever actually existed? Photographs can be faked. Memories can be mistaken. People can lie.

So do you choose to doubt or choose to believe? I wonder if, philosophically, it actually makes any particular difference. Whether it is more rational to believe or doubt information is going to be based solely on whether most information is true or false. Most people would argue that the overwhelming majority of information is true and therefore shouldn't be doubted, while cynics or believers in an illusory reality would believe most, if not all information is false.

Of course we run up against another wrinkle, which is that most information may be true but most information that comes from people is false. In other words, you can believe Rokkenjima existed by visiting the place, but you can't necessarily believe everyone the message bottle says was present on the island that day actually was because people are deceptive by nature. Unless of course you believe they aren't.

Ultimately, however, the question is impossible to resolve, because you have to start trusting something somewhere in order to form a foundation for trusting anything, and if you choose to doubt everything as false your position, while technically consistent, is meaningless.

So the question becomes, what degree of truth, based on trustworthy information, is satisfactory? With respect to Prime, we have no idea, because almost no information is available and practically all of it comes from corruptible sources. The best physical evidence seen is what Ange is able to gather in ep4. And as I've said in the past, I don't even know if I buy the validity of Maria's diary either.
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And that is what EP8 keeps on telling us, doesn't it?
Isn't it better to accept the best possible event of what happened in the past over the worst? I'm not saying that I agree on all levels of what the implications of such a worldview would be. But the basic idea of "we shouldn't always think the worst" is not that bad.
It's the same as with the Kinz˘ catbox. You can condemn him for the sins he's done or you can use the implications made and create a Kinz˘ who was conflicting but loving.
This is interesting, and I've been tinkering with it (to little effect, unfortunately, as I lack a lot of time to write), but maybe not?

Let's look at it this way: In the absence of knowledge of the Truth, is it better to assume the best or the worst? This kind of goes back to what I was previously talking about (sort of) regarding doubting versus believing. Although it's a bit different in that it's more of a moral question than an ontological one.

The people on Rokkenjima are dead (we presume; if nothing else they want to be seen that way by everyone). Therefore nothing we can say or do actually changes the external facts. Nobody can be arrested and dead people can't be offended by our characterization of them. This is true even of the people affected directly; Nanjo's son, for example, is no better off assuming the best or assuming the worst about his father's behavior simply because he can't know and therefore could always doubt in one direction or the other that his conclusion is acceptable and correct. Nagging doubt and slim hope may as well be the same to the extent they imbalance us from the comfort of certainty.

That presence of uncertainty means any fact can be willfully interpreted by any individual, whether positively or negatively. One can believe Kinzo was a doting grandfather or a reclusive unpleasant rapist. It doesn't change (1) what Kinzo actually was, (2) what we actually can say we know about what Kinzo actually was.

Common decency might tell us to assume the best because we'd want other people to think of us pleasantly in the same situation. But it's possible, based on facts we cannot know, that at least one of these people was a murderer! Common decency shouldn't extend so far as to view a criminal in the most positive light possible, to the extent it erases and denies their crime. It's possible there was no crime, but if there was, whitewashing it is wrong.

Really, the only morally defensible position if faced with the inability to learn any definitive information is to shrug and say "I don't know." Assuming the best about the individuals who died could be as much of a disservice to them as assuming the worst. If we can know the Truth, we should strive to find it. If we cannot, it's probably arrogant and erroneous to presume the answer was either the absolute best possible or the absolute worst possible. That's simply implausible.
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Did Kasumi ever personally see Ange before she got to Rokkenjima? In the Yukari ending, maybe Amakusa just led her on a wild goose chase while pretending to be with Ange and then wiped out her entire group once they'd been lured to the island.
She was clearly killed by the Smoke Monster. Rokkenjima was a secret Dharma Institute facility and Kinzo had to keep resetting the clock every day or the laboratories underneath the island would explode. He passed this task to Yasu, but something prevented her from making her daily reset on Oct. 5 1986.
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Old 2012-07-10, 14:37   Link #29604
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Okay you know what screw Shannon and Kanon being the same person and screw Jessica and George being the same person because we all know that the truth is that they are all the same person. ShKanJessGeo Theory. Also my other theory is that Yasu never had anything wrong with her. What happened was that as a baby Yasu was born with several physical disabilites and so the mother threw the baby in the ocean hoping it died but through several miracles that baby washed up on Rokkenjima which was an old abandoned mansion that use to belong to a very wealthy family. Soon after washing up there Yasu was saved by a flock of seagulls who raised her and she even named the seagulls. She named the biggest leader one Kinzo and all the others after other people. Eventually she fell into insanity and began to personifie the seagulls as other humans and because she lacked breasts she gave them all huge breasts. She wrote murder mysteries about her seagull friends but once she realized it was impossible for the seagulls to read she shipped them off under the name Maria because she really loved the Maria Seagull and wanted to be like her. Yasu then found a cave and a clock. She turned the switch and the island exploded because she thought the switch turned the clock on. There now everything makes sense. Also Tohya is an escaped mental patient whose soul is linked to that of the seagull Yasu had a crush on.
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Old 2012-07-10, 14:45   Link #29605
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Everyone is Battler. He never had a family, he's just some crazy hobo hopped up on Ikuko's really dubious medical skills.

"You don't need a hospital, I'll just bandage you up and grab some random shit out of the cupboard. You're fiiiine."
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Old 2012-07-10, 21:30   Link #29606
RandomAvatarFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Okay you know what screw Shannon and Kanon being the same person and screw Jessica and George being the same person because we all know that the truth is that they are all the same person. ShKanJessGeo Theory. Also my other theory is that Yasu never had anything wrong with her. What happened was that as a baby Yasu was born with several physical disabilites and so the mother threw the baby in the ocean hoping it died but through several miracles that baby washed up on Rokkenjima which was an old abandoned mansion that use to belong to a very wealthy family. Soon after washing up there Yasu was saved by a flock of seagulls who raised her and she even named the seagulls. She named the biggest leader one Kinzo and all the others after other people. Eventually she fell into insanity and began to personifie the seagulls as other humans and because she lacked breasts she gave them all huge breasts. She wrote murder mysteries about her seagull friends but once she realized it was impossible for the seagulls to read she shipped them off under the name Maria because she really loved the Maria Seagull and wanted to be like her. Yasu then found a cave and a clock. She turned the switch and the island exploded because she thought the switch turned the clock on. There now everything makes sense. Also Tohya is an escaped mental patient whose soul is linked to that of the seagull Yasu had a crush on.
Oh, I get it. And the whole thing was that Yasu couldn't decide what to name one of her seagulls. That's what's happening in EP6
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Old 2012-07-13, 03:32   Link #29607
Tammuz
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*just finished episode 8*

what is this i don't even ._.
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Old 2012-07-13, 03:37   Link #29608
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Please elaborate?
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Old 2012-07-13, 04:26   Link #29609
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Give me some time to find an appropriate means of articulating my confusion, before I elaborate on it.
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Old 2012-07-13, 04:54   Link #29610
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No problem, we're patient. :3
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Old 2012-07-13, 10:18   Link #29611
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You wouldn't be the first to have a "wut" reaction to Episode 8, Tammuz. XD
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Old 2012-07-13, 12:32   Link #29612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
~~~~~
It doesn't matter how "right" you are, or how logically sound you are. Lectures on morality won't help Ange cope.

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Originally Posted by Tammuz View Post
Give me some time to find an appropriate means of articulating my confusion, before I elaborate on it.
Oh boy! I love articulated confusion!
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Old 2012-07-13, 13:04   Link #29613
Drifloon
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My first reaction to playing Episode 8 was that it was absolutely beautiful and I couldn't have asked for a better ending.

It's a shame I seem to be in the minority.
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Old 2012-07-13, 13:55   Link #29614
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Tanmuz, I would direct you to the game impressions thread.

I starting to think that this thread and the aforementioned should be merged in some way, although since that wouldn't really work, or at least lock one of them.
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Old 2012-07-13, 13:55   Link #29615
Tammuz
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Oh, don't get me wrong- it was beautiful. I don't quite understand it, but you don't necessarily have to understand something for it to be beautiful. Anyway, after getting some sleep and re-reading the last couple of parts, I think I got it now... Probably.
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Old 2012-07-13, 14:21   Link #29616
Kealym
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Tanmuz, keep in mind, too, that most of us here have our own way of viewing certain things. That is to say, there's a lot of room for you to reach your own conclusions about ... well, a lot of stuff.
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Old 2012-07-13, 15:17   Link #29617
AuraTwilight
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Yea, it's a heavily symbolic ending. If there's anything you're still curious about, feel free to list it.
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Old 2012-07-13, 16:17   Link #29618
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It doesn't matter how "right" you are, or how logically sound you are. Lectures on morality won't help Ange cope.
"Ange is not the only person in the world" should have become my catchphrase by this point.

Then again, what if she is?
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-07-13, 16:44   Link #29619
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Not only is Ange the true culprit of Rokkenjimma, but she killed all of humanity as well!
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Old 2012-07-13, 17:53   Link #29620
GreyZone
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No, I am alive. If you are not a bot, then you are alive too :P

About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-07-13 at 18:09.
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