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Old 2012-07-13, 19:34   Link #21
Rayrah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
He's a blatant Gary Stu pandering to the wish fulfillment crowd. Seriously, he reminds me of that one NCIS episode with the girl being a champion in every MMO ever (yes the author's grasp on the nature of MMO and a player's capability and limitation is that bad).
Needless to say, naming any of his LN 'feats' count as spoiling.
Ehm.. Gary Stu/Mary Sue is a term usually limited to fan fiction and original characters.

Wish fufillment? I guess not everybody can appreciate good romance and good writing. Ah well, haters gonna hate. *shrug*
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Old 2012-07-13, 20:05   Link #22
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When we get weak protagonists, he is condemned as a waste of space, oxygen and ink.

When we get competent protagonist, he is condemned as a Gary Stu.
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Old 2012-07-13, 20:10   Link #23
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To be fair, Kirito does step pretty close to the line, though I certainly don't think he's a flawless character, nor that there's anything wrong with a bit of OP-ness in the main protagonist in a story like SAO.

I mean, what do you want to read about? the main character kicking ass and taking names, or repeatedly running back to his corpse to pick up his gear 'cause he keeps getting pwnd?
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Old 2012-07-13, 20:15   Link #24
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Pretty close..? Hm. No, not really. As someone who has been exposed to many Gary Stus and Mary Sues, yeah.. no. He's just a very strong character (or somewhat OP, if you like); look at that how you will.

I agree with nova, though; people will always find a reason to hate on a character if they look hard enough. But then again, the reverse of that is also true. Ah well.
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Old 2012-07-13, 20:46   Link #25
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Depends on what standard you use, if you're comparing him to the typical lolfanfic super OP characters or even some of the shounen leads, then yea. But if you put him next to more classical or non-anime characters, then he's probably gonna shoot off the charts.

IMO however, by the time someone starts doing critical analysis on a LN/Anime character, they've already missed the entire point of the show.
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Old 2012-07-13, 20:50   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Depends on what standard you use, if you're comparing him to the typical lolfanfic super OP characters or even some of the shounen leads, then yea. But if you put him next to more classical or non-anime characters, then he's gonna shoot off the charts.

IMO however, by the time someone starts doing critical analysis on a LN/Anime character, they've already missed the entire point of the show.
Well, considering the standard is usually those "typical lolfanfic super OP" () characters, so yeah.

But haha, you're right.

Oh, what's this? Somebody that holds the same view as me with regard to critical analysis on LN/anime characters? That's rare.
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Old 2012-07-13, 21:22   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Depends on what standard you use, if you're comparing him to the typical lolfanfic super OP characters or even some of the shounen leads, then yea. But if you put him next to more classical or non-anime characters, then he's probably gonna shoot off the charts.

IMO however, by the time someone starts doing critical analysis on a LN/Anime character, they've already missed the entire point of the show.
I'll argue that had SAO been written in another country (and it could easily have been- Korea (and likely America) are more MMO Crazy than Japan), it would have been regarded as an interesting Sci-fi series, considered decent literature rather than a full out pulp fiction novel.

I'd consider Kirito a Sue if he was infallible .
Spoiler for To be safe:


So, is he competent? Yes. Perfect? Far from it of course. Talented? Yes, but you can argue that many, many other protagonists are talented in their own ways. Morally a Saint? No.

I don't think SAO can be seen in the same light as other LNs out there. It probably should and was meant to be put to a level of scrutiny closer to Fate Zero or Haruhi Suzumiya (later novels) then Hagani or Index. On the level of competency, I'd argue that if you see Kirito as a Sue, then so to is Emiya Kiritsugu.
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Old 2012-07-13, 21:52   Link #28
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I'd just like to point out that Mary Sue tests can get you false positives. For example, I once ran a character through a common Mary Sue litmus test. He was an American paratrooper in World War 2, greatly loved by his man, a real badass, led an attack on a fortified position that became a textbook example of What To Do Right that was taught at Westpoint for over seventy years. He was so liked by his men that the NCOs of his company threatened to resign if they went into combat with anyone else other than him in charge. He led an attack on an SS battalion and chased them off with a single rifle. He was so good he was promoted to Battalion Commander, and was greatly admired and respected by legions of soldiers and ordinary people around the world. He was so admired, his death was only announced AFTER the funeral, because there would have been no way there would have been enough space to accomodate those who paid their respects/

Verdict? Total sue. Said Mary Sue's name? Richard Winters.

There was another Sue I made. He was a Marine Sniper, won the Wimbeldon Cup, the most prestigious award in US military target shooting. In Vietnam, he formed the core of the first ever Scout Sniper platoon. He held the world record for longest sniper rifle kill, using an M2 machine gun. On his second tour in Nam, he single-handedly restored pride and standards to a demoralised scout sniper platoon. In a duel with an enemy sniper, he killed the man by firing a bullet right through the sniper's scope. Upon his return from Nam, he was one of the chief instructors at the newly-formed Scout Sniper School. He was friends with the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, the Commandant of the Marine Corps was a friend to him, and the Corps named a library after him. He had 300 unconfirmed kills, 93 confirmed, and was hailed as the greatest sniper in the Marine Corps, not just in kills, but in his legacy and the training he passed on. When he died, he was mourned throughout the United States Marine Corps.

Verdict? Again, total sue. His name was Carlos Hathcock.

What people forget is that Sues are hated because they displace the pratagonist, in fanfiction, in someone else's verse. But this is SAO, and Kirito is the viewpoint character. Him being competent is not Sue-like.

And again, two Real Men. Badasses. Actually existed. And the test rates them as being Sues. Heh. Wonder why nobody's accused Major Kusanagi of being a Sue.
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Old 2012-07-14, 00:49   Link #29
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As from one poster:

My only real problem is that Kirito isn't just a Gary Stu, he's a Gary Stu that wins and exceeds by such a ridiculous margin that it doesn't even make sense in universe.

Spoiler:

Last edited by Randomzx; 2012-07-14 at 00:59.
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Old 2012-07-14, 00:50   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
And again, two Real Men. Badasses. Actually existed. And the test rates them as being Sues. Heh. Wonder why nobody's accused Major Kusanagi of being a Sue.
Because she'd shoot them full of holes, snap their necks, and then toss of them off the nearest skycraper

also, o7 to Gunny Hathcock and Maj. Winters, and all the rest tbh, there were countless badasses in WW2
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Old 2012-07-14, 01:09   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
My only real problem is that Kirito isn't just a Gary Stu, he's a Gary Stu that wins and exceeds by such a ridiculous margin that it doesn't even make sense in universe.
eh, not really.

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
If I didn't know any better, I'd think it was a parody from reading the summaries.
The only thing that's being parodied here is your lack of reading comprehension.
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Old 2012-07-14, 01:30   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
The only thing that's being parodied here is your lack of reading comprehension.
More like you missed this

Quote:
As from one poster:
Pretty much all of your 'points' are nothing more justifying edits failing to understand why they make a Gary Stu. The misconception of a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is not someone who is perfect. But someone whose role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree. not to mention the author contradicts himself multiple times in trying to justify many of Kirito's abilities and actions

Seriously, look up the definition of Mary Sue on multiple sources.

That said, on one point,
Spoiler:

Last edited by Randomzx; 2012-07-14 at 01:41.
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Old 2012-07-14, 02:47   Link #33
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He is the main protagonist, you know. It's inevitable that he would read like a Gary Stu or whatever the hell that is because this is a LIGHT novel. There are so many other stories out there of the similar genre that couldn't even lick the boots of SAO, and Kirito is one of the better constructed characters I've seen for quite a while.

There will always be a number one in something, and Kirito happens to be that in SAO. In GGO his unorthodox style of play and immense experience gave him an advantage over the other players, but given enough time anyone could've come up with a comprehensive way to beat him.

It is not even uncommon that you can complete supposedly team quests solo; people have done much crazier things in MMO.

The harem thing is just Japan. The protagonists always have legions of women fawning over them.

Spoiler:


His role had definitely not harmed the story, that I can tell you. He is definitely not perfect, and honestly has not played a real HERO character until the coming of Alicization. And that arc looks to be very dark.
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Old 2012-07-14, 05:52   Link #34
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Spoiler for For end of Aincrad Arc& Alicization:


I'd also argue that Kirito would sympathize with Emiya Kiritsugu's philosophy. He's surely not your Shounen hero of justice. Far from it. A Shounen hero of justice would have agreed to stay with Klein. Mind you, had he joined Klein's guild,the odds are high that
Spoiler for Red Nose Reindeer Spoiler:
survived to the end of the game, ironically. Indeed, had he joined Klein's guild, I suspect he might have been able to stop the BEATER concept at it's inception.

Kirito is not a Sue. He's merely a highly talented young man with potential Anti-hero tendencies curbed by the unique circumstances and harsh life lessons Aincrad and what happened after taught him. One of the big themes of SAO is the coming of age story of a genius coming of age on the eve of a technological singularity.

Last edited by novalysis; 2012-07-14 at 06:42.
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Old 2012-07-14, 06:08   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Because she'd shoot them full of holes, snap their necks, and then toss of them off the nearest skycraper
there's that. Or just hack them into submission.

Quote:
also, o7 to Gunny Hathcock and Maj. Winters, and all the rest tbh, there were countless badasses in WW2
Oh, there were, it's just that those two have the most current recognition atm. Audie Murphy, most decorated US soldier ever, would be another case, and of course we cannot forget Marshall Zhukov, who had a coat LOADED with medals that he earned by being so badass. Particularly in a BT-2.

Regards being a sue, Kirito is the main character, therefore by default the title of Mary Sue/Gary Stu cannot apply, as that term refers to an author created character in a work of fan fiction.

Now, to address some factual errors:

Spoiler:


Much of my delivery is lost in the cold medium of text. I may need to record this as an audio file; In my mind I am speaking in the style all propesctive barristers learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Spoiler for For end of Aincrad Arc& Alicization:


I'd also argue that Kirito would sympathize with Emiya Kiritsugu's philosophy. He's surely not your Shounen hero of justice. Far from it. A Shounen hero of justice would have agreed to stay with Klein. Mind you, had he joined Klein's guild,the odds are high that
Spoiler for Red Nose Reindeer Spoiler:
survived to the end of the game, ironically. Indeed, had he joined Klein's guild, I suspect he might have been able to stop the BEATER concept at it's inception.

Kirito is not a Sue. He's merely a highly talented young man with potential Anti-hero tendencies curbed by the unique circumstances and harsh life lessons Aincrad and what happened after taught him. One of the big themes of SAO is the coming of age story of a genius born on the verge of a technological singularity.
Agreed. QFT. I have nothing more to say, other than this is an excellent summation of the character...

... Even if I still must insist that strictly,speaking, as a main character, in the verse he originates from, the Mary Sue label should not apply.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2012-07-14 at 06:19. Reason: iPad keyboard typos.
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Old 2012-07-14, 06:23   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
As from one poster:
Wait-- you're arguing by using someone else's opinion?

Quote:
Spoiler for Not really a spoiler, but just in case:
So you've only read the summaries, and not what's available of the light novels? Your argument is invalid then.
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Old 2012-07-14, 06:40   Link #37
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Seeing that his arguments have been already deconstructed to a degree it becomes invalid it seems there's no point in chiming in fairly similar points. If he still doesn't understand then I will just simply consider him a troll and move on.

In closing let me just quote some particular lines from the novel said by the man himself:

Spoiler for Kirito's train of thought...:


P.S. Oh and please tell me if this violates the forum rules and I'll edit it out.
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Old 2012-07-14, 06:41   Link #38
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Seeing that his arguments have been already deconstructed to a degree it becomes invalid it seems there's no point in chiming in fairly similar points.
It wasn't his argument to begin with, though.
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Old 2012-07-14, 06:54   Link #39
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Randomzx is most likely a troll, he's just repeating what all the SAO trolls on /a/ have been saying the last week.

I can't consider Kirito a Gary Stu just because he's a competent MC.
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Old 2012-07-14, 07:02   Link #40
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This amuses me greatly. The first two pages of Kirito's character thread, a thorough rebuttal to why Kirito is not a Sue.
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