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Old 2012-07-15, 13:34   Link #29641
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, what did Will say about that? I've forgotten.
It's in KnownNoMore's 2nd video. Start at 1:32:48.

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Well, pulling off a trick does take some risk. What is Maria had opened her eyes when Beato was making candy appear, and stuff. As I said, it's very likely that Erika was told about the letter later, and even assuming she wasn't, it's still an "odd trick" that implies the illusion of the witch in the overall narrative. The knee jerk response, like with many other scenes, would just be "That never happened!", and despite a crapload of details about the layout of people and actions, Lambda never confirmed that it did happen.
Well, the funny thing about the letter scene is that it's never brought up at any other point in the story. The whole narrative just moves on as if it never happened. The only reason, I think, to believe there's something real about it is that the reds suggest that there actually was some letter.
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Old 2012-07-15, 14:12   Link #29642
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It's in KnownNoMore's 2nd video. Start at 1:32:48.
Thanks.
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Well, the funny thing about the letter scene is that it's never brought up at any other point in the story. The whole narrative just moves on as if it never happened. The only reason, I think, to believe there's something real about it is that the reds suggest that there actually was some letter.
I agree - it would seem Lambda just decided not to make it an arguing point, 'cause she found anti-Natsuhi too entertaining. Which is something the witch side can just do, I guess, like how Beatrice decided to let Erika use 'X' for getting Kanon out of the Guesthouse in the next game.

I'd say it's illogical that ERIKA never brings it up again, but then, I find it somewhat illogical that Erika was stumped by it, too. 'Cause that was honestly one of the ... two or three riddles I was able to see an obvious solution for before the scene was even over. "Shkanon delivered the letter / people lied" just really seems to be the way to go.
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Old 2012-07-15, 15:01   Link #29643
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I'd say it's illogical that ERIKA never brings it up again, but then, I find it somewhat illogical that Erika was stumped by it, too.
Well, let's not forget that at that time Erika and Bern had not realized that Battler's perspective could be unreliable. Without that it's a pretty tough riddle, with KNM's solution the only one I know of.
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Old 2012-07-15, 17:15   Link #29644
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Yeah, and Battler saw Kinzo being a creeper in the bushes earlier.
That doesn't prove the narrator was lying in the dining room scene though. With the Kinzo thing, we had at least had it beaten into our heads that Kinzo was already dead, and therefore Battler couldn't have really saw him there alive.

Though I guess he could have saw Kinzo's corpse there for whatever reason.

Last edited by Thunder Book; 2012-07-15 at 17:26.
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Old 2012-07-15, 17:42   Link #29645
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Well, let's not forget that at that time Erika and Bern had not realized that Battler's perspective could be unreliable. Without that it's a pretty tough riddle, with KNM's solution the only one I know of.
Is that so..? They never seemed to treat his piece with more or less regard than anyone elses... also, if they were "trusting" Battler's perspective to be objective, there'd have been no need to confirm who was in the Dining Hall during the conference, because they'd have been objectively observed.

...well anyway, I watched his bit of video concerning the knock/letter/phone call, and ... well, it's really displeasingly convoluted. And I say that from my stance that "Ryukishi intentionally made EP5 broken/non-sensical to make a point".

The red clearly states that you cannot be in the mansion and produce a knock. And as far as the pieces are concerned, there's no restriction on George going to the mansion at actual midnight ... BUT, we know via red that at actual midnight, 24:00, George has to be in the Guesthouse, and Natsuhi / Krauss / Genji have to be in the 2nd floor corridor. His theory says George went to the mansion after midnight to work with these, but this leaves a very, very small window of time for him to do A LOT of stuff. And this possibly creates dissonance between when Erika reported leaving the cousins, and when she actually did. It's just so ... much.

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That doesn't prove the narrator was lying in the dining room scene though.
True. And I'm not trying to live in the "There was no detective, IT WAS ALL LIES" camp. But a mysterious letter and knock (which are never confirmed) appeared under dubious circumstances, with a bunch of restrictive lines of red in a room where at least WE know there's no reliably objective viewpoint. Combined with the general undertone of conspiracy that seems to be in EP5, it's not unreasonable to put that scene under some scrutiny, I think.
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Old 2012-07-15, 17:59   Link #29646
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I get what you're saying, and am not disagreeing that the scene needs scrutiny, but if the knock scene really didn't happen at all, that just seems so...underhanded of Ryu07 to me.

If the letter/knock scene didn't really happen, and is just a troll, then why waste our time with it in the story?
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Old 2012-07-15, 18:14   Link #29647
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That knock never happened and a letter was never found there. Saying that something didn't happen in an incident does in no way contradict that the incident didn't happen at all.

You got any red to disprove that blue truth? Or is it effective?


I mean it would be nothing new. The chapel door in EP2 was not locked when Rosa opened it.
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Old 2012-07-15, 18:27   Link #29648
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The only argument I could think of putting forward is that Lambda's reds imply the existence of the knock. But that's an argument easily crushed, isn't it?
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Old 2012-07-15, 18:28   Link #29649
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I get what you're saying, and am not disagreeing that the scene needs scrutiny, but if the knock scene really didn't happen at all, that just seems so...underhanded of Ryu07 to me.

If the letter/knock scene didn't really happen, and is just a troll, then why waste our time with it in the story?
I have my own opinion on what the dirty trick of EP5 is ... but I don't consider the knock/letter a troll or a waste. Bearing in mind that Chiru aren't "answer arcs", but "core arcs", that presumably are supposed you reach into the depths of the truths at work and all that jazz... it shows an example of how your logic can be derailed by faulty assumptions and (I hope I'm using this example correctly) Raven paradoxes.

Basically, we had that giant flurry of red truths, without a single one confirming that anything had happened, that a letter had even actually arrived, that a knock was actually heard. It's a lesson of sorts, one that you can use when re-examining certain earlier riddles. Also, I'd say the scene implies that Shannon/Kanon pretty openly just ... present themselves at the conference and deliver the letter, or something along those lines.
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Old 2012-07-15, 18:46   Link #29650
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The only argument I could think of putting forward is that Lambda's reds imply the existence of the knock. But that's an argument easily crushed, isn't it?
Yea... Betrice also implied that the chapel door was locked in EP2. "Implying" things is what witches do after all... or mabye it is more like "derailing".
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Old 2012-07-15, 23:35   Link #29651
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My only issue with the while thing being a lie is that I thought Lamda through out some red about "everyone identifying the knock correctly", though if they never identified it at all I guess that is ok... I'd be more suspicious of the clock too, I mean, when have we ever had such specific time descriptions before? Ryu once said paying attention to what is described in detail is important.

When I said they do most things together, I was making a shkannontrice joke.

Furthermore, anyone else notice Erika's blue about the letter being placed earlier was never actually denied, Gertelia just said in black that people didn't notice it before when the door was opened. This could be a sneaky way of getting round it.

Also, as an aside, anyone else really like how blue truths can be wrong but still defeat the illusion, like when battler stated that kino was recognized in four because someone else took on the title and asked Beatrice if people could hold more than one or something. He may have been wrong, but shkannon stops her from refuting him.
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Old 2012-07-16, 00:20   Link #29652
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My only issue with the while thing being a lie is that I thought Lamda through out some red about "everyone identifying the knock correctly", though if they never identified it at all I guess that is ok... I'd be more suspicious of the clock too, I mean, when have we ever had such specific time descriptions before? Ryu once said paying attention to what is described in detail is important.
She said it as, "no one would ever mishear a knocking sound", which is stating what the characters can't do hypothetically. It's playing pretty dirty, but she never really confirms there was a knock.
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Old 2012-07-16, 01:47   Link #29653
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In the manga, it's translated as 'everybody identified the sound as a knock and could not mistake it for any other sound' which does seem to imply that there was indeed a knocking sound. However, I'm more inclined to believe that this is just a translation difference and the wording of the red in Japanese probably didn't change between the VN and manga.
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Old 2012-07-16, 01:57   Link #29654
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You sure about that? It could be like the "stillborn" change again.
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Old 2012-07-16, 02:41   Link #29655
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Ryu is using the manga as an opportunity to clear up problems with the games (as per his fixing of the boiler room door) but what is this stillborn change?
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Old 2012-07-16, 03:41   Link #29656
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In the manga, it's translated as 'everybody identified the sound as a knock and could not mistake it for any other sound' which does seem to imply that there was indeed a knocking sound. However, I'm more inclined to believe that this is just a translation difference and the wording of the red in Japanese probably didn't change between the VN and manga.
So, the exact line as it appears in the translation is 'Hence, everybody identified the sound correctly as a knock and could not mistake it for any other sound.'

Believe it or not, I don't think this was mistranslated, nor do I think it means that there was actually a knock. It's all from the "hence" part. I can't find a raw, but I suspect the Japanese word used is つまり, which has at other times been translated as "in short" or "in other words". Whenever these patterns occur, I believe that the red "conclusion" can be false.

KnownNoMore actually identifies the best example one such situation in his 3rd video, at 1:12:07. And, no, the problem does not seem to be a mistranslation as KNM supposes.

I guess the excuse is that the つまり statements are more like suggestions or theses and thus are not subject to being "true" or "false" in of themselves... but honestly, I think it's a pretty cheap trick to say these kinds of things in red. They should be in white.

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Is that so..? They never seemed to treat his piece with more or less regard than anyone elses... also, if they were "trusting" Battler's perspective to be objective, there'd have been no need to confirm who was in the Dining Hall during the conference, because they'd have been objectively observed.
Actually, no one ever listed the names of the people in the dining hall, despite ample opportunity to do so. They always said, in as many words, "everyone else" was in the dining hall. Incidently, doesn't that sound familiar to a trick in EP6?
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Old 2012-07-16, 05:19   Link #29657
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Hey, where did KNM get an English version AND a good graphic version?

Also he stated that Jessica knew Kinzo was dead, this seems likely (she probably guessed or was told) but is never proven.
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Old 2012-07-16, 07:33   Link #29658
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but what is this stillborn change?
I guess Thunder Book means the EP4 thing about "Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's Son", which did not apply to the Battler we know, but to the stillborn child instead who is also named Battler.
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Old 2012-07-16, 07:52   Link #29659
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I guess Thunder Book means the EP4 thing about "Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's Son", which did not apply to the Battler we know, but to the stillborn child instead who is also named Battler.
Actually it refers to a mistake that was apparently made by Ryűkishi in an early version of EP3 (I don't have my original copy with me, so I can't check) where he had Kyrie say that her pregnancy ended in a miscarriage (流産) instead of a stillbirth (死産), which lead to a lot of misunderstandings concerning how far an exchange of children was even possible.

After I researched the term a little I think I understand how he was able to make this mistake, though I'm not perfectly sure about the Japanese linguistic implications, because the terms are not exactly totally fixed in how they can be applied except for the approximate age and weight of the fetus.
As this apparently happened on the due-date, the term miscarriage cannot be applied, as it is normaly only used up to 20-25weeks...but as miscarriage is categorized as a natural abortion of the fetus from the mothers womb, this created some inconsistencies in how far Kyrie would not have noticed anything.
Though as far as I know, a stillbirth beyond a certain age of the fetus can still be medically a miscarriage but is legally handled as a stillbirth...so yeah, it was mostly a question of semantics back then.

Oh, and I don't know if anybody ever brought this up and somebody would need to check the circumstances in Japan, but in Germany way into the 1980's the mother was sedated in case of a stillbirth and the fetus was removed from the room. So if Rudolph actually managed to buy the hospital staff, it wouldn't be that hard to make Kyrie believe her baby was stillborn.
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Old 2012-07-16, 08:32   Link #29660
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Hey, where did KNM get an English version AND a good graphic version?
Shouldn't be too hard to find the patch on Google. I think Witch Hunt would frown on me if I linked it here.
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