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Old 2012-07-16, 01:13   Link #101
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Eratas123 View Post
Anybody here read the side story "There is but one ultimate way"?
Yes, though IMO it's rather pointless, good for some lulz I guess.
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Old 2012-07-16, 01:13   Link #102
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Originally Posted by Eratas123 View Post
Anybody here read the side story "There is but one ultimate way"?
Yes. It's not canon.
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Old 2012-07-16, 01:17   Link #103
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Yeah, I read the notes saying it's not canon Still good for a laugh. I was half-expecting it to be a dream or for something very serious to happen midway.
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Old 2012-07-16, 09:30   Link #104
Dann of Thursday
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Indeed, it's a hilarious story and my reactions were rather as confused as Kirito seemed to be. Curious what the actual ending will end up being since the author seems to be rewriting things now. Hopefully it won't be a Bad End for Kirito, Asuna, and co.
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Old 2012-07-16, 10:16   Link #105
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I personally doubt Kirito could have open his heart to a younger figure.

Spoiler for Spoilers for Red Nose Reindeer:
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Old 2012-07-16, 10:55   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
I read your links. First thing they mention is the character being female (he isn't), going through most of his trails with minimal effort (he does not), he makes canon character behave out of characters (he's the main character, he is canon), as for your own complaints.
Gary Stu is synonymous with Mary Sue, if you bother to read through the links or do your own research you would know that. Mary Sue is just first coined as a term for fan fiction characters (oddly enough, Sword Art Online was written as a fan fiction or sort for a contest, but couldn't be submitted because of the page length), but later example to also cover more ground than to categorize a specific female characters.
So to be more specific, Kirito who fit under the Canon Sue category.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonSue

Do note, that to be considered a Gary Stu, it is NOT required to have a overwhelming majority of the characteristics listed (those are listed as COMMON, not required for a reason). Most of the time, they fit in certain categories due to their descriptions.
In this case, Kirito would fit into the 'Mary Sue as Center of Attention' term in Tvtropes.

It is also definitely not required for the character to fulfill some of the worst aspect of mary sues. Such having everything handed to them or being loved by everyone. You guys keep on only associating Mary Sues with only these blatant traits. And claim because Kirito doesn't fit these cases, that's evidence enough that he isn't one.

Spoiler:



I suspect you guys still didn't do enough research on what Mary Sue is about (and don't just rely my links). You people really shouldn't overlook or trivialize what makes Kirito a Gary Stu/Canon Sue/Stu the next time you read.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I'll just point out one thing before i go - Randomzx believes that my disregard of his actions and methodology is a personal attack. I beg to differ - i am attacking his actions and statements, and not his person. Any conclusions I have come to are derived from the displayed actions in his previous posts.
Quote:
Aren't you being quite petty right now?
Quote:
Emphasis mine. You do realise how sad this is, don't you? You had no opinion of your own, but latched onto the opinions of others, and use that to prop yourself to a position of superiority, whereby you attempt to lecture us all. You cannot even argue your opinion, because it isn't your opinion, it's the opinion of others that you are just regurgitating.

There's a fine line between quoting an agreeing opinion, and simply blindly following the crowd.
Quote:
The fact that you must resort to this should be evident enough that your position cannot hold.
Are seriously saying those aren't ad hominem attacks?

how is it this is an ad hominem
Quote:
Its your fanboy vision and tendency to hold onto minor justifying details that doesn't allow you to see Kirito that way.
but yours not?


I seriously see no more reason to continue to argue if you guys still won't research what being a Gary Stu/Canon Sue/Mary Sue is really about. I have a feeling you guys won't change your opinion no matter what (reasons ranging from pride to Kirito being your favorite character)

I bet when you people take this litmus test
www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm
and see Kirito's high score (assuming you are doing this 'objectively'), you guys will claim that the test is inaccurate or that every 'good' character would fit.
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Old 2012-07-16, 11:14   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
I suspect you guys still didn't do enough research on what Mary Sue is about (and don't just rely my links). You people really shouldn't overlook or trivialize what makes Kirito a Gary Stu/Canon Sue/Stu the next time you read.
I suspect you still have not realized that people doesn't give two fks about your opinion on what makes a character a sue/stu.
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Old 2012-07-16, 11:23   Link #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post

[Do note, that to be considered a Gary Stu, it is NOT required to have a overwhelming majority of the characteristics listed (those are listed as COMMON, not required for a reason).
Says who exactly, and why should their opinion rule over anything others think?

Quote:
In this case, Kirito would fit into the 'Mary Sue as Center of Attention' term in Tvtropes.
See, I think this whole "center of attention Sue" trope is really retarded-why SHOULDN'T the main character get the most focus!? It's the main character!

Quote:
It is also definitely not required for the character to fulfill some of the worst aspect of mary sues. Such having everything handed to them or being loved by everyone. You guys keep on only associating Mary Sues with only these blatant traits. And claim because Kirito doesn't fit these cases, that's evidence enough that he isn't one.
Again, why should we believe this?


Quote:
I bet when you people take this litmus test
www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm
and see Kirito's high score (assuming you are doing this 'objectively'), you guys will claim that the test is inaccurate or that every 'good' character would fit.
Why do you take it and prove it to us instead of repeating yourself over and over?
Besides, the creators took it for Morphius from The Matrix and even though he got a high score, they insist he still isn't one.

I really think you should give it up and stay out of Kirito's thread if you hate him this much: you're kinda asking for people to jump on you...and to me, it's no different than trolling.
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Old 2012-07-16, 11:49   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Says who exactly, and why should their opinion rule over anything others think?
Quote:
Again, why should we believe this?
Did you even read what I wrote? the word COMMON is self-explanatory as to why that's the case (They are symptons of Gary Stu). Pretty much every website that defined Mary Sue indicated these elements like that. None of them claim that Mary Sues are required to have all of them.

Quote:
See, I think this whole "center of attention Sue" trope is really retarded-why SHOULDN'T the main character get the most focus!? It's the main character!
Did you even read the article listed under there? It pretty much explains what separates them from just the main character status.

Seriously, all of your so-called 'argument questions' are self-evident and something you should have figured out for yourself from your research.


Quote:
Why do you take it and prove it to us instead of repeating yourself over and over?
Because you guys still wouldn't believe me if I posted the results.

Quote:
Besides, the creators took it for Morphius from The Matrix and even though he got a high score, they insist he still isn't one.
The explanation falls under more of the 'Author Investment in the Character' in 'Common Mary Sue Traits' on TV tropes.


Again you guys demonstrated you really didn't do any research or really think about what I posted, but just skim the lines.
I see now its a waste of time to continue to argue when you guys act like this.

Quote:
I really think you should give it up and stay out of Kirito's thread if you hate him this much: you're kinda asking for people to jump on you...and to me, it's no different than trolling.
wow, people like you even think Trolling = Having arguments I don't like/different from mine.
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Old 2012-07-16, 12:06   Link #110
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Oh boy, here we go again.
Let's not force our own opinion to others and stop discussing the definition of Mary Sue.
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Old 2012-07-16, 13:08   Link #111
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Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
Are seriously saying those aren't ad hominem attacks?

how is it this is an ad hominem but yours not?
Because your argument boils down to telling the other posters that they hold their opinions due to being fanboys. You are attacking them (calling them fanboys) in an attempt to discredit their opinion. Also note that while you accuse others of cherry-picking their examples and arguments, you are doing the exact same thing, right now.

I am not attacking you as a person. I am attacking your behaviour. My understanding of your point, in my first statement, which you have quoted partially, was that characters hated Kirito for petty reasons. I was attempting to ironically point out that you appeared to be falling into the same pattern you accused the author of writing (i.e. dislike due to petty reasons). The fact that you read it as a personal attack... well. That's hardly my fault. There's a Malaysian saying: Siapa makan cili, dialah rasa pedasnya. Whoever eats the chillies feels the heat.

As for the other two statements you quoted? You really think that's an attack on you? Those are my observations of you, gleaned from your own behaviour. You have stated that your opinions are based on those of your peers, and have been spending the last several days attempting to lecture us all (and rather badly, I might add, from a technical standpoint - your grammar, spelling and punctuation are fine for perhaps Form One, but need significant polish. The level of writing you've shown would have gotten your papers marked down and tossed out at my Uni.)

I'll concede that I ought to have clarified on one point - you can argue, you just can't argue this opinion well, as you lack the technical skill to do so, and again, as from what I've seen, it's because this doesn't seem to really be an opinion you came to, but the opinions of others, which you agreed upon, and decided to come here and evangelise.

As a result, my observations of your patterns of posting are that when countered, and when others disagree with you, you become flustered and dig in your heels even further, and continuously repeat the same course of attack, even though you lack the ability to express yourself clearly (which can be seen in a comparison of your posts vs my posts), and whilst you appeared to be somewhat lacking in your knowledge of the source material (which is an interpretation strongly supported by how on your earlier posts, you were relying on broad, sweeping statements, instead of specific examples, though you seem to have crammed for the more recent posts).

Also, you really should have quoted that last bit in full. Nevermind, I'll do it for you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I was wondering when you were going to throw out the ad hominem. It's a notoriously weak logical argument, and is often used to distract the focus of a discussion - to move it from an indefensible point (Kirito is a supposed Sue) and attack the opponent (Aphrah, since you seem to be ignorign me).

The fact that you must resort to this should be evident enough that your position cannot hold.
You claim that I am making an attack you on. I am merely stating that this is what is happening: you are attacking Aphrah and ignoring me, because you are being challenged on a point that you are finding harder to defend. My last sentence notes that the fact that you are attacking Aphrah counts as evidence that you cannot maintain your position.

If you really wish to see that as a personal attack, there is nothing more I can say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
Because you guys still wouldn't believe me if I posted the results.
There is a saying: Screenshot or it didn't happen. Or hell, use Fraps, record what happened on your screen, and put it up on Youtube - it's not that hard.

You're the person making the claims: the onus is on you to provide proof. This is not only a legal principle, it's good debating practice.

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Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
wow, people like you even think Trolling = Having arguments I don't like/different from mine.
Given that your only activity in this entire subforum has been confined to this one thread, given your stance - very much Internet Tough Guy, and given your conduct, was deciding that you are a troll so unreasonable?

Let me clarify in simple English: If you only post in this one thread, and only about the same damn thing, in the abrasive, condescending, childish manner you are currently displaying, and make no effort to discuss the anime in any other threads, then yes, people will think you are a troll, because you are acting like a troll.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2012-07-16 at 13:26. Reason: Adding one clarification to initial statement.
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Old 2012-07-16, 13:33   Link #112
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Look, guys, can't we all agree to have our own opinions on what constitutes a Mary Sue, whether Kirito is one, and whether it's a bad thing? And let the whole matter drop? As in, shut the fuck up about it instead of trying to get the last word?

Yes, it'll probably mean that some jerk will get the last word. Can't we as a community accept to pay that price?
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Old 2012-07-16, 13:35   Link #113
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Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
wow, people like you even think Trolling = Having arguments I don't like/different from mine.
No, it's more because you just won't drop it....and it really seems like it's the ONLY reason you're even here. Feels like you're crying out for attention. Sorry if that sounds rude but....I really think you should give it a rest.

I mean what's your goal? Trying to get everyone who likes Kirito to change their mind and go "You're right. He's a Sue and I hate him now!"

.......yeah, I don't see that happening....

Time to change the subject!!

What do you guys think of Kirito's seiyuu?

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...e.php?id=93780

Looks like he's still a newbie (aw he is two years younger than me!). I'm very fond of his voice and think he's doing a stellar job here.
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Old 2012-07-16, 13:44   Link #114
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Jedi blocks blaster bolt in the real world. Hence Jedi is a Sue/Stu. Oh wait, Sith kills Jedi who blocks blaster bolts. Sith so OP he must be Stu!

EDIT: His voice's pretty good, though we'll know better when he's required to scream or cry in certain situations. I literally fell in love with Saber when she screams in agony in Fate/Zero muahahahahahahahaha.
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Old 2012-07-16, 14:18   Link #115
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Alright, here we go again.
Quote:
(oddly enough, Sword Art Online was written as a fan fiction or sort for a contest, but couldn't be submitted because of the page length)
By fan fiction, you mean the author wrote an original story, God forbid.

Quote:
Gary Stu is synonymous with Mary Sue, if you bother to read through the links or do your own research you would know that. Mary Sue is just first coined as a term for fan fiction characters, but later example to also cover more ground than to categorize a specific female characters.
I know, there is a good reason why it began with Mary Sues which is integral to the term. Generally a Mary Sue is injected in a male-dominated works, makes the boys fall in love with her, and generally give up their motivations to get around to her point of view, the genre shifts from whatever it was before to half romance and all the established characters act Out of Character around her.

This can happen with guys too. It's generally rarer though. Kirito does not do any like this. He is a male shounen protagonist in a male-targeted shounen story, that was never anything else. He is the main character in that, if he isn't the POV character, then whoever is the POV character is someone thatll run into him by the end of the page. So he doesn't hurt the story by his arrival, in my mind. Not saying main characters can't exhibit Mary Sue traits, but it ain't what the term was intended for.

Spoiler for Volumes 1-6:


...Yes. They are trapped in a gameworld by a GM. This is the premise of the story. You knew this going in. Him having moderator powers, when him having moderator powers is the only reason the story happened in the first place is not hax, it isn't cheating, storywise it is in fact integral to the plot THE most integral element of the plot I would say. His moderators powers are and always have been the obstacle that always needed to be overcome from the getgo. I'm not sure how I can break this down more simply for you.

Quote:
Remember, it is not required for a Gary Stu to win all his battles, and its common for them to lose majority of the time due to unfair advantages, as the case with GM
Yuuki didn't have an unfair advantage, the floor one boss didn't have an unfair advantage (not on Kirito anyway), Deathgun didn't have an unfair advantage, none of his reallife opponents had an unfair advantage, the Kobolt in Volume 9 didn't have an unfair advantage. The actual one on one's Kirito wins without help are Cradil (first duel), Evil Santa, Eugene, his preliminaries in GGO and the lowlevel guild that was harrassing Silica. His clean wins are few and far in between aside from the fifth novel, which I admit was the worst.
Your last comment is just priceless. So, you don't have to win the majority of the time. If you lose unfairly that's a Gary Stu trait, if you win unfairly that's a Gary Stu trait as well. Of you course if you do keep winning fairly then obviously you are Gary Stu as well.
Seems like being a fighting character and escaping the monicer of Gary Stu is pretty hard.

Quote:
This is more due to his insistence on wearing the damn hipster longcoat for everything no matter the stats (so he pretty much to make sure to upgrade it and his equipment somehow so much without destroying the gear in the attempt).
Basically wearing his special coat to stand out (pretty much called the black swordsman), and ignoring the less 'awesome-looking' and ununique armors.
So what you are saying is that you were quite wrong and he (nor his companions for that matter) does wear the best damn gear all the time at all. And Asuna is the only regular cast member that has a uniform.

Quote:
As mentioned in my other replies, he's dodging numerous bullets from short range with his own REACTION speed. And this is BEFORE the Alicization arc, where a new technology is hinted at, where the mind is accelerated to x times the norm giving the person the ability to perform processing x times faster in less time.
I was not talking about Alicization. I was talking about Nervegear. The VR helmet that all the GGO players are using is specifically mentioned more then once to be a heavily watered down version of what Kirito has been using nonstop for the past three years, for security reasons. And they unlike Kirito and Death gun haven't even been doing this a tenth of the amount of time Kirito has spent in this world. That the VR world does not have earth based physics was already long since made clear in Volume 1. Just putting guns in it and putting a different name on it isn't going to change that. Everyone is quite capable of stunting around.

Spoiler for Phantom Bullet:


Cause he had to succeed at a game lest people die within a day and as such imported his stats which are a swordsmans build.

Quote:
Except for the 'less-good looking' girls, those are informed attributes but the girls are obviously designed as the typical pretty anime girls for the Otakus (hello same-face syndrome). Not mention Silicia fulfills the typical loli-type character quota for a harem.
Again, it's a work of fiction. When a artist is required to draw the less attractive character of whatever stories you like I'm sure they'll look good as well. As for Silica, for a harem it's quite unusual that she hangs around Kirito for, what? Al of two ministories? That's what you call constantly being flocked?


Spoiler for Aincrad:


Well Asuna primarily is an ACTUAL action girl that bests opponents alongside Kirito or defeats those he fails too. She is just ALSO screwed up. It happens.

Quote:
I've already explain these in the above points, have like half of them outright cheats. But he pretty much outshines them anyway (Yuuki dies so she won't).
Cheats as in, the Gamemasters Kirito goes out of his way to challenge have Gamemaster priviliges. And the sheer unfairness of this reality tore you up inside.
Quote:
Yes he's not that strong in real life, but the point was that he suppose to serve as the wish-fulfillment for otakus as the online champion hero.
Not that strong? He came to save a frail teenage girl in distress and it ended up squarly the way around. He's thinner and lighter then his two years younger sister. This is wish-fulfillment for you?

Quote:
I only spoke in jest that his online capabilities might eventually leak to real life given his technical capabilities and how eventually he would develope all sort of advance technology mentioned in the other soruces.
Accel World is definitely not canon to the same universe as Sword Arts Online. The doujinshi was just that, a doujinshi.
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Old 2012-07-16, 15:03   Link #116
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Old 2012-07-16, 15:58   Link #117
Dann of Thursday
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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
I personally doubt Kirito could have open his heart to a younger figure.

Spoiler for Spoilers for Red Nose Reindeer:
Spoiler for RNR:
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Old 2012-07-16, 16:12   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Spoiler for RNR:
Spoiler for interpretation:
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Old 2012-07-16, 16:12   Link #119
DurararaFTW
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Spoiler for RNR:
Spoiler for RNR:
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Old 2012-07-16, 18:19   Link #120
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Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
Spoiler for RNR:
Spoiler for Spoilers for RNR:
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