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Old 2012-07-15, 23:56   Link #61
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I don't want to lock the thread because everyone on the staff is open to more discussion about spoilers... but continuing to argue this particular point isn't going to change anything at this time. Sorry...
My aim is just to put forward the other side of the argument, for future consideration if nothing else.

Don't worry, you've made yourself clear. I don't expect to see any significant changes to AS' Spoiler policies, or how it handles episode threads, anytime soon.

So I intend to leave this thread until/unless I can come up with a different idea of my own. Thanks for continuing to leave this thread open, as I think it's lead to some helpful discussion.
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Old 2012-07-16, 06:38   Link #62
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
My experience is that most fans of a particular anime like it when it gets a sub-forum of its own.
And if there's none, fans could improvise. iDOLM@STER does not have a sub-forum, but there's a social group setup with separate threads for game, manga, and music discussion. Not as good as having a real sub-forum, but it's good enough for some purposes.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not just about being accommodating to the people who want to make these comparisons. It's also about being accommodating to anime-only viewers that don't want to see those comparisons as soon as we post on a SAO Episode thread.

The thing is that by the time that the Moderators discover comparison-based posts on episode threads (and then edit, move, or delete them), it's often too late for us anime-only viewers. We've been spoiled already.
Not a SAO fan, so I don't know what level of spoiling is actually happening in the SAO sub-forum. The way you wrote the post seems like anime only viewers are being spoiled on a weekly basis there. Maybe a poll (stickied) could be made there to know how many people want to make a "split", so that the anime-only viewers don't get spoiled too often?

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2012-07-16 at 09:14.
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Old 2012-07-16, 09:02   Link #63
SeijiSensei
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I'm frankly more concerned about the problem of spoilage for series without sub-forums. For those, you have options like the ones you've discussed here. The vast bulk of shows don't get a sub-forum, so there are no easy ways to avoid spoilers.
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Old 2012-07-16, 18:11   Link #64
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I'd just like to forward something a friend of mine said to me last night. This problem isn't confined to AS. It has become global across anime communities/dens, it seems.


Quote:
Sword Art Online has become the show of the season for "never the twain shall meet" in regards to fans/haters. Many of those who are haters of the show, as much as fans, are spoiling everyone with the LN to ruin it for them. The chan of four is being inundated with people picking apart every aspect of the show and trolling it to the four winds (Total Eclipse is getting the same treatment). Welcome to the modern form of internet fandom. Great, isn't it.

The comments forum for the new Kara no Kyoukai movie on anidb was locked for similar reasons, with most of the posts deleted by the moderators. I've never seen that happen before on anidb. There have been a collection of new users there who are the internet equivalent of vermin in the eaves.
This isn't specifically a problem with AS. This is a problem with modern anime fandom. Aspects of which Solace has already eluded to.
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Old 2012-07-16, 19:50   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I'm frankly more concerned about the problem of spoilage for series without sub-forums. For those, you have options like the ones you've discussed here. The vast bulk of shows don't get a sub-forum, so there are no easy ways to avoid spoilers.
Likewise. I think that we need to make things clearer for shows without sub-forums as well, because in that case there are fewer options and it requires more discretion. In general terms, I would say that our current policy requires all source material "spoilers & speculation"-style discussion go to the source thread, even though the context is the anime. This is not elegant, but is preferable to having it in the anime thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
I'd just like to forward something a friend of mine said to me last night. This problem isn't confined to AS. It has become global across anime communities/dens, it seems. [...] This isn't specifically a problem with AS. This is a problem with modern anime fandom. Aspects of which Solace has already eluded to.
If you follow the progression of English fandom, I think it makes a certain sense. The combination of being (basically) fully-caught-up on the source material and watching the anime day-and-date with the Japanese broadcast is still fairly new to the English audience, and I imagine it feels empowering to certain people. I think that, once this really becomes the norm and people get used to it, things will calm down to some degree and people will have enough experiences knowing both that the need to compare obsessively is reduced. In other words, I think people will become more familiar with the sorts of changes and compromises needed to make an anime, and will start trying to accept it on its own terms (or will lose interest in anime, and just focus on the source material). Right now we're in the "Oh this is so cool! I can be an expert for once!" phase, and so all the "experts" are coming out of the woodwork.

Ultimately, we need to get to the point where people realize that just having knowledge of the source material is one thing -- being able to recite a list of changes and get mad about it is fine, I guess -- but the real value is being able to perform smart and intelligent analysis and provide useful and relevant insight that adds value even to other novel readers watching the anime. Right now, we're just overwhelmed with simple comparisons because being able to do that is so new. I really question how much value it adds, if any -- it sure isn't very interesting for me to read, anyway.
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Old 2012-07-17, 16:28   Link #66
AmeNoJaku
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I can understand the principles behind the spoiler policy, but the application is not very helpful to foreign fans. We must always keep in mind that anime are produced with the domestic fans in mind who are familiar with information deleted en mass as spoilers here. Some anime even make almost no sense without spoilers moved to obscure threads (muv-luv/horizon/campione). And some information is deleted, because someone got paranoid and reported it, with a mod not noticing that something has at least been mentioned in the show (Jinrui/Joshiraku/Ebiten).

I am not saying not to delete, warn, or whatever you guys are doing here when someone posts the resolution of an arc or show, but background information that are readily available to the domestic audience and irrelevant to the plot is not a spoiler.
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Old 2012-07-17, 17:08   Link #67
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I agree with AmeNoJaku that "background information" is not the same thing as a "spoiler".

The problem with anime adaptions is that they have time constraints that prevents them from giving full and complete explanations about the setting which frequently causes the audience to not understand or even completely misunderstand the situation.

Spoiler in my book is when you tell something that has yet to happened or that has yet to be revealed, not something that was supposed to be told already in the original story but which was lost in adaption.

If this forum's policy forbids any kind of information that isn't esplicitly mentioned in the adaption, I suggest to specify that, rather than simply forbid "spoilers" as this can cause confusion.
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Old 2012-07-17, 17:25   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I agree with AmeNoJaku that "background information" is not the same thing as a "spoiler".

The problem with anime adaptions is that they have time constraints that prevents them from giving full and complete explanations about the setting which frequently causes the audience to not understand or even completely misunderstand the situation.

Spoiler in my book is when you tell something that has yet to happened or that has yet to be revealed, not something that was supposed to be told already in the original story but which was lost in adaption.

If this forum's policy forbids any kind of information that isn't esplicitly mentioned in the adaption, I suggest to specify that, rather than simply forbid "spoilers" as this can cause confusion.
The problem is that you can't be sure if the adaptation skipped that part deliberately or on purpose so that it can be used for future episodes. Thus people could be spoiling entire events by telling what was "skipped" compared the original.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-07-17 at 17:32. Reason: rephrasing
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Old 2012-07-17, 17:35   Link #69
AmeNoJaku
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how often does that happen in chronologically ordered anime

My point is that in spoilers here are included a lot of facts well known to domestic fans that the anime producers assume also as known when they make the shows we watch. By deleting them makes conversation between native english fans and the rest of the world including the domestic fans the least harder.
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Old 2012-07-17, 17:37   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
how often does that happen in chronologically ordered anime
You have a very recent example just mentioned on this very thread: Fate/Zero cut a bit of character development from the second-last episode but added it on the next one. The episode thread for the latter was obviously rampant with people complaining about the omission as you can probably guess.
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Old 2012-07-17, 17:49   Link #71
AmeNoJaku
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Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
You have a very recent example just mentioned on this very thread: Fate/Zero cut a bit of character development from the second-last episode but added it on the next one. The episode thread for the latter was obviously rampant with people complaining about the omission as you can probably guess.
But this IS a spoiler, I was talking about with muv-luv/horizon and junrui in mind

in muv-luv secondary background information are moved to threads filled with actual spoilers. These info are necessary to give the setting some believability, and the production staff assumes that are know... but even if they weren't they present no plot point, like the example you mentioned.

in jinrui, some claim that episode titled are spoilers, others that the corresponding volume numbers are, and then a mod jumped in to delete them because he didn't understand that events are taking place out of order

again no information about the content and/or future/past events were revealed, just a fact implied within the show, and generally well known to the domestic audience, that for some incomprehensible reason is very bad to know
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Old 2012-07-17, 17:54   Link #72
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
The problem is that you can't be sure if the adaptation skipped that part deliberately or on purpose so that it can be used for future episodes. Thus people could be spoiling entire events by telling what was "skipped" compared the original.
It is a valid point and it certainly makes things more difficult to handle, but my point remains that it is better to specify that no external information should be mentioned rather than call "spoiler" what it is not perceived as such by many users (if that's really this forum's position).

Anyway if I understand correctly the case you mentioned is related to events that are plot related and not "common lore" about the setting which doesn't make much difference whether you learn it sooner or later.

I can mention on this regard the fact that often the anime adaption sites themselves often offer that kind of information for those people who wants to know more about the setting about things that couldn't be explained in depth in the anime itself.
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Old 2012-07-17, 18:08   Link #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
I'd just like to forward something a friend of mine said to me last night. This problem isn't confined to AS. It has become global across anime communities/dens, it seems.




This isn't specifically a problem with AS. This is a problem with modern anime fandom. Aspects of which Solace has already eluded to.
Yep believe me I'm no fan of this trend either and sadly saw it coming weeks ahead of SAO and Muv-Luv's airing when I realized just how hyped up both were becoming. 4Chan loves to make the experience of other fans miserable when a show gets popular and it has a habit of spreading outside the confines of that forum as well. I could site many prior examples, but yeah modern anime fandom like modern anime/gaming fandom has a lot of problems. Aside from the 4channers it really needs to just chill the heck out.
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Old 2012-07-17, 19:28   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
...Muv-Luv's airing.
I don't think it's an issue with 4chan-isms seeping through at all, but Muv-Luv's situation is relatively complex. Total Eclipse is a LN-made sidestory of a sequel of an alternative ending of a parallel world of an eroge. This fact alone means that some familiarity with the setting is required, or some things won't make any sense... which is exactly what many anime-watchers are experiencing.

While it was helpful to create setting and military/geopolitical threads to clear things up, those threads are pretty much glorified Q&A threads that give a LOT of details on the franchise. I don't really mind myself, as the more info for me to digest the better, but for someone who might want to jump into the world of Alternative or Ultimate, well...

We're put in a position where the setting doesn't make sense, people who know of the setting can't explain because it might be considered a spoiler even if it's not even about the events of the show, and to have things make sense the curious person is to be directed to the game threads... which are more or less 100% spoilers for the main series instead.
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Old 2012-07-17, 19:51   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
I don't think it's an issue with 4chan-isms seeping through at all, but Muv-Luv's situation is relatively complex. Total Eclipse is a LN-made sidestory of a sequel of an alternative ending of a parallel world of an eroge. This fact alone means that some familiarity with the setting is required, or some things won't make any sense... which is exactly what many anime-watchers are experiencing.

While it was helpful to create setting and military/geopolitical threads to clear things up, those threads are pretty much glorified Q&A threads that give a LOT of details on the franchise. I don't really mind myself, as the more info for me to digest the better, but for someone who might want to jump into the world of Alternative or Ultimate, well...

We're put in a position where the setting doesn't make sense, people who know of the setting can't do so because it might be considered a spoiler even if it's not even about the events of the show, and to have things make sense the curious person is to be directed to the game threads... which are more or less 100% spoilers for the main series instead.
And this is a big part of the reason why I continue to like the idea of letting people post spoilers as long as they are inside clearly-marked spoiler tags.

You're right. The current situation makes it harder for people to pick and choose what they'll spoil themselves on. It's a bit more all-or-nothing.
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Old 2012-07-17, 19:51   Link #76
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
I don't think it's an issue with 4chan-isms seeping through at all, but Muv-Luv's situation is relatively complex. Total Eclipse is a LN-made sidestory of a sequel of an alternative ending of a parallel world of an eroge. This fact alone means that some familiarity with the setting is required, or some things won't make any sense... which is exactly what many anime-watchers are experiencing.

While it was helpful to create setting and military/geopolitical threads to clear things up, those threads are pretty much glorified Q&A threads that give a LOT of details on the franchise. I don't really mind myself, as the more info for me to digest the better, but for someone who might want to jump into the world of Alternative or Ultimate, well...

We're put in a position where the setting doesn't make sense, people who know of the setting can't do so because it might be considered a spoiler even if it's not even about the events of the show, and to have things make sense the curious person is to be directed to the game threads... which are more or less 100% spoilers for the main series instead.
To be fair though, Fate/Zero did not explain much in detail about it's own setting. Yet most people already know about most of it because they have seen or read the first fate stay night anime or VN.
This is probably similar to Muv-Luv that has already established quite some backstory because of it's previous games. The difference is that the Western people know less about Muv-Luv than Fate stay night.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-07-17 at 20:10. Reason: full of typos
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Old 2012-07-17, 20:31   Link #77
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The intensified spoilers policy has a big effect to the threads. It seems either members are afraid to post ( might accidentally type a spoiler) or use the spoiler tags (if their post would be appropriate). Kinda scary, but a policy is a policy.
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Old 2012-07-17, 22:02   Link #78
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Let me be really blunt here: if people want to watch the anime without the "benefit" of the source material, even if "makes no sense", even if you think you're "expected" to know certain things, even if you think "all the fans in Japan know this" (hint: they don't; there are anime-only viewers there too), you have to give them that right. It's not up to source material readers to decide what anime-only viewers should and shouldn't know. You can present comparisons to what was currently aired behind properly-labelled spoiler tags. And, in cases where it's really, really required, we can create a separate thread for "background information that you may want to know", as I did with Muv-Luv (after discussing with some familiar with the source). But we on the staff will not allow source material readers to be the judge of what anime-only viewers "need to know". We have rules to determine where conversation has to reside. There is an acceptable place for almost every kind of post, even if it isn't where you think it's supposed to be. If people want to spoil themselves on information that may help them make sense of things that confuse them, they are free to make that choice and to partake. But in the meantime, if you try to make an executive decision on their behalf, you may be banned for it. Be prepared.


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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
The intensified spoilers policy has a big effect to the threads. It seems either members are afraid to post ( might accidentally type a spoiler) or use the spoiler tags (if their post would be appropriate). Kinda scary, but a policy is a policy.
It's not that hard.

Will it be explained/covered later? NOT OK.
Is it just a supplement to what was already shown? SPOILER TAG IT.

If you have nothing to say about the anime except to talk about the source, then just go to the source thread or spoilers & speculation for shows with sub-forums.

The bottom line is: respect the right of anime-only viewers to experience the show and the related discussion without any outside information. If people can do that, the rules are just clarifying what should come naturally. It's not like we made the rules because we needed rules; it's just a formalization of what for some of us was already common practice.

(And by the way, the policy hasn't actually changed. We just re-worded it and made the penalties a bit clearer because some people didn't seem to be getting it despite attempts to try to point it out in the threads.)
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-07-17 at 22:15.
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Old 2012-07-17, 22:20   Link #79
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Just to be sure. Its ok to use a spoiler tag if I'm about to post a reaction for the "latest episode" of an anime in the Current Series Thread? If there is no Per Episode Impression thread for that anime that is.

By the way, I'm an anime viewer only anime fan without access to LNs or manga.
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Old 2012-07-17, 22:26   Link #80
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Just to be sure. Its ok to use a spoiler tag if I'm about to post a reaction for the "latest episode" of an anime in the Current Series Thread? If there is no Per Episode Impression thread for that anime that is.
It's okay, particularly if the subs aren't out yet. If the subs are already released, it's not required to use spoiler tags to discuss the current episode, if you're not doing any comparisons or anything. The only reason people use spoiler tags in that case is to try to be considerate it for people who haven't seen it yet (but these days, the delay between airing and sub is usually not very high).

All that to say, if you watched it subbed and have no comparisons, you don't need a tag.
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