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Old 2012-07-18, 14:36   Link #41
Goshin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Not using your strongest power in life and death situations simply doesn't make sense. Why not use his sage mode in situations as:
- when he wanted to beat Itachi and take his body, Itachi totally owned him
- when he was immobilized by the 3rd Hokage and his soul is being taken out, he could have gathered nature chakra in that situation and then break out
- in every other of his fights it was never even hinted that he can power up himself, and to gather nature energy he doesn't need his arms, so even without his arms he could have monstruous strength like Jiraiya and Naruto had in sage mode
I think it is pretty obvious that the author hadn't thought of sage mode until jiraiya showed it. why didn't jiraiya use sage mode back in the sannin battle nvm he was tipsy, but he could have hinted it.
personally i think each summon species should have had a
sage mode , the uchiha cats, 3rrd Hokage monkey etc etc. It's only fair
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Old 2012-07-18, 14:51   Link #42
Methuselah
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People shouldn't try to further analysis stuff like this with the earliest chapters of the manga.....

The author obviously thought up and retconned many things throughout the manga.

Heck, Jiraiya's Sage Mode was introduced during the Pain Arc. It wasn't even hinted before that.

Which I chuckle at the thought. The term Legendary Sages of Three was originally about 3 ninjas who made a reputation of itself to the Kohana village because of skills - not because they can transform into Super Seiyan with overpowering and inhuman jutsus that can hollow mountains and single-handedly destroy a village.

I can't help myself but to say that the Naruto manga has gone sour like many mangas that last this long. Characters are just too damn powerful and the laws of Jutsus are contradicted all the way to characterization.

For Example: Naruto

He was originally a talentless Ninja whos talent is perseverance!! No matter how many people taunts and devalues him he always seeks for acknowledgement and to become better. Throughout the manga he is always portrayed as having a difficulty to learn techniques and most importantly didn't have a BLOODLINE LIMIT!!!

Not anymore! Now he has the Uzamaki bloodline limit for him to sense movements through chakra flow - like visual tracking from the Sharingan. Also, Uzamaki is a clan in which we never heard of.

Now we see Naruto spamming Nine-Tails mode chakra fighting Tobi! He was sweating and bloodied before and magically recovers and was able to activate Tails Mode again even though he was mentioned he couldn't do it anymore a chapter or two ago.

==

Naruto = Tail-Mode Spammer

Sasuke = Susannoo Spammer

Don't these fools have a limit?
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Old 2012-07-18, 14:52   Link #43
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
I think it is pretty obvious that the author hadn't thought of sage mode until jiraiya showed it.
Of course, but suddenly telling that Orochi had sage mode but never used it even if his life depended on it doesn't make sense. For that someone has to come up with an excuse that's believeable, our discussion was about the excuse part of this.

Where i was wrong is that Orochimaru couldn't possibly have senjutsu chakra because he was never a sage, but as it was pointed out Orochi could have trained that to some low level, similarly to Naruto being able to produce something using the special frog oil. Orochimaru obviously has experimented on Juugo's DNA, so he could have also cheated like the use of oil is in Naruto's case, the CS itself is such a "cheating".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
why didn't jiraiya use sage mode back in the sannin battle nvm he was tipsy, but he could have hinted it.
That's a pretty good excuse for Jiraiya not using it The other excuse he makes is that he doesn't want girls to see him in that ugly state as a half-frog, and Tsunade was there to see him

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
personally i think each summon species should have had a
sage mode , the uchiha cats, 3rrd Hokage monkey etc etc. It's only fair
I think sage mode was meant to be an ultimate power, just like MS and tailed-beast mode. So it should be very rare to find and almost impossible to master.
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Old 2012-07-18, 15:09   Link #44
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ugh, so Tobi could had the 10 tails just by using portion of the tailed beast and not the complete beast? with this and how Orochimaru was revived has been one of Kishis lowest moments.
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Old 2012-07-18, 15:24   Link #45
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Tobi did say that it will be an incomplete summon; he only needs a small fraction of the 10-tails' actual power to enforce global tsukuyomi, so he can settle for a tentacle and...stomach tissue?
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Old 2012-07-18, 15:39   Link #46
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
ugh, so Tobi could had the 10 tails just by using portion of the tailed beast and not the complete beast? with this and how Orochimaru was revived has been one of Kishis lowest moments.
It makes sense, we all want to see the ultimate monster but we don't want Naruto to lose the kyuubi for that. Many chapters ago my assumption was that for this to happen Bee will have to be taken out just like the other 7, and that Tobi will somehow get the kyuubi chakra out of the death god. But Kishimoto did different tricks to make it happen. Bee's funny escape was ok, i liked it, also Bee had a good role later so it made sense to not kill him off. But the story about Kinkaku and Ginkaku surviving being eaten by the kyuubi sounds lame. So when Tobi went to the battlefield to take the kyuubi's chakra it became obvious that his goal is to have all 9 chakra types. So i assumed Tobi wants to do a moon tsukiyomi concentrated only on the alliance ninja army, because he would be unable to do a global tsukiyomi with that little chakra, but in this chapter he tells he can do it. I expected that he would make the alliance army attack Naruto, that would be fun. I guess Tobi is either lying or he will be interrupted somehow. If it's really global then the interesting thing will be that only Sasuke can break out of it, assuming Kakashi's words when he first fought Itachi are true even now.

Even more fun would be to have a few chapters of agony and tragedy where most of the cast is killed off, and then it turns out it was all an illusion. If it's only an illusion then Kishimoto can really go to the extremes without killing anyone.

BTW Tobi's solution reminded me of the ending of the NGE anime
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Old 2012-07-18, 15:47   Link #47
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The problem is not that if its make sense, is that every conflict and plot made about Akatsuki until now was flushed down the toilet, stuff on how they needed 3 days of the complete Akatsuki team to seal one tail beast, how not having Orochimaru made it slower, how Chakra was important to this process; all of this was baasically overlooked and the solution to the problem Kishi had at hand was solved in no more than two pages with little to no effort from Tobis part.
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Old 2012-07-18, 16:00   Link #48
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OR... There is a reason why Tobi wanted the complete 10-tails. Him settling for an incomplete one might be his last resort and may actually be a gamble (because maybe the incomplete 10-tails isn't as unstoppable as the complete one is?). Of course, Tobi wouldn't just say "And now I will go with the lesser version which is a bit of a risk" because of course that would tip off his enemies that he definitely CAN be stopped.
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Old 2012-07-18, 16:00   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Mists View Post
Cue the obito chain! haha...Tobi could be obito after all with those comments knowing Kakashi and Gai. Remember, first sighting of him was against Minato but Naruto was a baby and Tobi looked younger (long hair) - but possibly the same age as Kakashi.

This infinite Tsukuyomi thing makes me think it leads to the new movie how things have changed, that seems to be the tie in. What if things were different? And everyone was trapped in a genjutsu.

I still don't understand why. Maybe Obito hates war that much. Think about it, he had only one Sharingan to begin with before implantation. I still don't understand the implantation though, not like h has all powers...

But it makes sense for him to masquerade as Madara to instill fear and question his strength.
There are two things to consider about Tobi's identity:

1. He wears a mask to hide his identity

2. He has a significant amount of knowledge about and influence

I think the Obito theory is absolutely ridicolous. Aside from a somewhat similar name where is the connection?

Are we really to believe that little snot-nosed Obito with his face crushed by a boulder and left for dead some how grew up to become a major player in the fate of the ninja world? And a villain at that. How would Obito know the history of Konoha, know Madara, gain so much power and manipulate some many powerful ninja?

Realistically if Obito some how survived the incident that presumably killed him at best he would be Kakashi's equal not a Ninja master mind approaching the power of a God.

I've been leaning towards him being Madara's brother but if so why hide his face from the current generation of Ninja?

Tobi's identity is unknown and he doesn't want to make a name for himself.

He is an ideologue obsessed with control who wants to bring about peace by taking away everyone's free will.

I think when everything is cleared up Tobi will probably be a character we can sympathize with.

But I don't think it's Obito. Obito was at peace with himself when he was dying.

Besides Obito was a major inspiration for Kakashi. Tobi has impacted so many lives and Naruto is the hero of this story so I think whoever Tobi is he is much more connected to the major events in the Ninja world than Obito who was just Kakashi's teammate when he was a child.
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Old 2012-07-18, 16:18   Link #50
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I dont see Obito doing all this too.
He could been saved, and learned all of the things tobi knew. However, whats the motivation?

Revenge on kakashi? Rin? Minto? the village? He made peace with himself, and have kakashi his eye to help him, or to live with Kakashi to help him see the world.

at this point, I think Tobi is more of a different character..like How vader was different then Anakin.
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Old 2012-07-18, 16:58   Link #51
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Obito actually died with a fair amount of regret...ch 244 pg 2
He even openly expressed a desire to change the shinobi world...ch 241 pg 4 (maybe that changed when kakashi showed up to help, I dunno)
I don't know what kishi will do, but obito (or his body)is a legitimate contender...I'm not waiting for the mask to come off. It came off during the konan fight...I'm not sure what everybody else was looking at. ....
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Old 2012-07-18, 17:27   Link #52
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the obito theory isn't just about obito. it also involves madara's chakra which accounts for the knowledge and ability tobi possesses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Please forgive me for not wading through that incoherent trainwreck. Which isn't meant as an insult to anyone in particular, I recall I added to it myself too.

Anyway, what are the more obvious "hints" that I seem to have missed?
lol yea there is a lot there... some worth mentioning:

1) writing: the names tobi and obito are very similar. the timeliness of kakashi gaiden and tobi's introduction

2) body: placement of eyes, heavy damage to body, use of zetsu body which could account for how obito's body was preserved, similar vortex MS techniques as Kakashi who has obito's other eye

3) knowledge: knows kakashi and gai's personalities as if he was from their generation. knows all about kakashi's kamui technique and said it was useless against him. knows a lot of things madara would have known

4) personality: tobi has shown 2 distinct personalities and voices. the playful one resembles obito not taking things seriously. the serious one is akin to madara

5) theme: if tobi is in part obito then it fits the running theme of student/student relationships and student/teacher relationships and fights. he 'killed' his teacher minato and is now facing off against his comrade kakashi. that echoes orochi vs sarutobi, pain vs jiraiya, sasuke vs naruto, etc...

6) tobi never tried to take kakashi's sharingan. why? also it is just too fitting to have kakashi involved in this fight in which he doesn't belong otherwise


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
I don't get why people dislike the Obito theory
haters gonna hate... to not even acknowledge the theory as possible and reasonable at this point is just silly and stubborn

edit: also, let me just point out that gai has met tobi's true identity/face. that eliminates almost every other theory

Last edited by itachi-san314; 2012-07-18 at 17:38.
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Old 2012-07-18, 18:09   Link #53
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
Are we really to believe that little snot-nosed Obito with his face crushed by a boulder and left for dead some how grew up to become a major player in the fate of the ninja world? And a villain at that. How would Obito know the history of Konoha, know Madara, gain so much power and manipulate some many powerful ninja?

Realistically if Obito some how survived the incident that presumably killed him at best he would be Kakashi's equal not a Ninja master mind approaching the power of a God.
Anything can happen in this manga if the plot needs it to happen. You think Obito was too weak, but did we expect that Kabuto will become almost as strong as the whole ninja alliance? Did you expect that Sasuke will pull out Orochimaru from Anko? If Madara took out Obito from below the rocks he could tell him everything about the world, he could make Obito his apprentice and teach him all that you said. Also it would make sense that Obito rebels against Madara's original will which was probably not to live in a world without wars and constant ninja fighting.

So i think the question should be how could Obito's character fit into the story and what purpose would it serve to make him Tobi. Also how can it fit in the story so far. For example Tobi encountered both Kakashi and Minato, but there was never any hint that he could be Obito. If he were Obito why would he fight and try to kill his former sensei without even saying half a sentence about their past.
Why would Kishimoto ruin Obito's sacrifice by making him a final villain?
Why would a character that is connected only to Kakashi be the final villain in a story that's about Naruto?

I'm still sticking with my earlier post, until someone can come up with a really good reason.
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Old 2012-07-18, 19:07   Link #54
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
I don't get why people dislike the Obito theory.
Because it is so boring. Tobi=Obito was a theory most fans thought of seconds after Tobi was introduced, but immediately rejected because only a hack writer would so lazily write such a storyline. In the end, if Tobi is Obito, then Kishimoto would have put more creative thought into jerking his audience around on the issue rather than the creative thought required to actualy come up with something interesting.
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Old 2012-07-18, 20:41   Link #55
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
How would Obito know the history of Konoha, know Madara, gain so much power and manipulate some many powerful ninja?
That last question is simple... he pretended to be madara. BY pretending to be madara and displaying powers that allowed others to think he was telling the truth he was able to get them to follow him. He used that identity to get Pain under his wing, and then he used Pain to influence all of the other powerful missing-nin... Also he kept many of them in line with plots of world domination.

Quote:
Realistically if Obito some how survived the incident that presumably killed him at best he would be Kakashi's equal not a Ninja master mind approaching the power of a God.
you forget, obito was a Uchiha, the clan with the bloodline eyes that get the most hax techniques and power ups. I mean when it comes down to, Sasuke went from genin to incredibly powerful ninja in the course of 3 years; Really so hard to think Obito could do the same?



But with that said, there is one sharp thorn in the side of the Tobito theory. The ninetails attack. As we saw, Tobi attacked kohona with the ninetails 15 years ago. This would have been After otito's "death" but it would have been too soon for him to have acquired Madara's powers (plus he would have been to young and short to fit the role)... So the only way for Obito to be tobi would be is that tobi that attacked back then was a different tobi, or if Tobi is some kind of entity that's been pulling some kind of body switching-trick like orochimaru to keep himself alive and young and thus saved obito so that he could use him as his latest host... either that, or maybe the sharingan has time travel powers now... Which by that point we are getting quite ridiculous, and now things are feeling rather convoluted
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Old 2012-07-18, 20:44   Link #56
Whitemoon648
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Because it is so boring. Tobi=Obito was a theory most fans thought of seconds after Tobi was introduced, but immediately rejected because only a hack writer would so lazily write such a storyline. In the end, if Tobi is Obito, then Kishimoto would have put more creative thought into jerking his audience around on the issue rather than the creative thought required to actualy come up with something interesting.
I personally think it was brilliant. It was good because it was relatively obvious that Tobi is Obito. One of the reasons I am saying it was relatively obvious is that it wasn't as obvious as many people make it out to be ( In my opinion) .

Obito was supposed to have been dead. He died in Kakashi Gaiden Mini arc. He was smashed under so many rocks. So it was understandable that many argued against the theory. I was personally in the Tobi is obitio bandwagon mainly because Naruto is an anime/manga and it is not rare for people have been shown to be dead to some how revive later. Also there were many/some subtle hints that he was Obito through out the series. One of the which was when i talked about how i felt ( in manga chapter 502 discussion ) How Tobi was acting very familiar with Yondaime.

But yet again, It is not 100 percent confirmed yet. He could still be some one else. I am personally leaning toward him being Obito but from this chapter i don't think Tobi being Rin is too far fetched either. It could be any one really .

P.S. I keep trying to stop reading the Manga and just follow the anime but the urges to know what happens always gets the better of me. Maybe from the next chapter i will stop reading the manga *_*.
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Old 2012-07-18, 20:47   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Methuselah View Post
People shouldn't try to further analysis stuff like this with the earliest chapters of the manga.....

The author obviously thought up and retconned many things throughout the manga.

Heck, Jiraiya's Sage Mode was introduced during the Pain Arc. It wasn't even hinted before that.

Which I chuckle at the thought. The term Legendary Sages of Three was originally about 3 ninjas who made a reputation of itself to the Kohana village because of skills - not because they can transform into Super Seiyan with overpowering and inhuman jutsus that can hollow mountains and single-handedly destroy a village.
Jiraiya's Sage mode was first seen in a sketch the author drew years before part 2 started. Oh and the term Sannin was originally about 3 ninjas who could summon unstoppable godzilla-sized creatures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Please forgive me for not wading through that incoherent trainwreck. Which isn't meant as an insult to anyone in particular, I recall I added to it myself too.

Anyway, what are the more obvious "hints" that I seem to have missed?
There are a handfull of circumstantial hints. The foremost are the likeness of names, the similarity of jutsu with Kakashi's MS, the seemingly damaged body made up of Zetsu goo, the possible partially seen scars on his face, the very fact that the character Obito was introduced for a reason and now his knowledge of Kakashi and Gai. There was also the eye thing but then we know now that Tobi isn't exactly lacking in this department.
The main problem of this theory beside, as James put it, the sheer boringness of it all was that it made no sense for many reasons including a complete lack of motive, a huge difference in power, a completely different personality, a inexplicably vast amount of knowledge and many chronological inconsistencies like the fact that Tobi has been around since before Obito was even born.
But then it's a shounen world and the impossible is only marginally less likely than the normal.
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Old 2012-07-18, 21:20   Link #58
Whitemoon648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
There are two things to consider about Tobi's identity:

1. He wears a mask to hide his identity

2. He has a significant amount of knowledge about and influence

I think the Obito theory is absolutely ridicolous. Aside from a somewhat similar name where is the connection?

Are we really to believe that little snot-nosed Obito with his face crushed by a boulder and left for dead some how grew up to become a major player in the fate of the ninja world? And a villain at that. How would Obito know the history of Konoha, know Madara, gain so much power and manipulate some many powerful ninja?
Although he does fit the villain category of the series, he is not the type of villain that is doing all of these for personal gain. He is more like villains from these anime
Spoiler for contains the anime names which could be spoilers. you have been warned:
.

He is doing all of these to stop wars and to create peace but the method he is using is evilish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay
Realistically if Obito some how survived the incident that presumably killed him at best he would be Kakashi's equal not a Ninja master mind approaching the power of a God.
He is not really that strong. Now Madara is super strong but not him. He doesnt fight his battles himself. I mean he is probably as strong as maybe defeating a Hokage 1 on 1 easily or maybe 1v2 with some level of difficulty ( i don't know ). But i think that would be his limit. See most Uchia's rely on their eyes. If Itachi didn't have his Eye hacks he would be strong but not like that strong. Same with Kakashi, he learned many of his Jutsu because he copied them with his eyes and his signature move was completed because of a sharingan. Obito's strength is related to his eye power. Same way Itachi ( younger than Kakashi ) is stronger than Kakashi due to his eye powers, why is it so hard to believe that Obito would be stronger than kakashi? These are just my opinion. Feel free to disagree .
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay
I've been leaning towards him being Madara's brother but if so why hide his face from the current generation of Ninja?
possible but imo unlikely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay
Tobi's identity is unknown and he doesn't want to make a name for himself.

He is an ideologue obsessed with control who wants to bring about peace by taking away everyone's free will.

I think when everything is cleared up Tobi will probably be a character we can sympathize with.


But I don't think it's Obito.
I mostly agree with what you said here but if you may let me add a few things to this. If he was in fact Obito, in addition to what you said here, the reason he doesn't talk a lot or doesn't want to make himself known might have something to do with what he was told by Minato back in kakashi Gaiden. When Obito lied about why he was crying Minato told him " if you don't control your mouth, not only your mouth but your mind will also become weak" .

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay
Obito was at peace with himself when he was dying. Besides Obito was a major inspiration for Kakashi. Tobi has impacted so many lives and Naruto is the hero of this story so I think whoever Tobi is he is much more connected to the major events in the Ninja world than Obito who was just Kakashi's teammate when he was a child.
Well i think he wanted to stay with every one longer. We don't know how he survived ( if he is indeed Obito), but depending on how he survived and circumstances after he was revived/survived , he could have lost all hope for Shinobi world. He used to be like Naruto and said he would rather be a trash if that was what meant to be a Ninja ( when Kakashi told him they had to forget about Rin if i am remembering correctly).
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Old 2012-07-18, 21:23   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
There are a handfull of circumstantial hints. The foremost are the likeness of names, the similarity of jutsu with Kakashi's MS, the seemingly damaged body made up of Zetsu goo, the possible partially seen scars on his face, the very fact that the character Obito was introduced for a reason and now his knowledge of Kakashi and Gai. There was also the eye thing but then we know now that Tobi isn't exactly lacking in this department.
The main problem of this theory beside, as James put it, the sheer boringness of it all was that it made no sense for many reasons including a complete lack of motive, a huge difference in power, a completely different personality, a inexplicably vast amount of knowledge and many chronological inconsistencies like the fact that Tobi has been around since before Obito was even born.
But then it's a shounen world and the impossible is only marginally less likely than the normal.
correct me if im wrong about this, i remember the 4th Hokage is the master of Obito/Rin/Kakashi and they are kids at that time, and at the same time the 4th Hokage fight against Tobi at an old age too just like he is now, so thats a heavy blow on the Obito=Tobi theory right? i mean the age for Obito should have been same as Tobi during the 4th Hokage's timeline right?
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Old 2012-07-18, 21:27   Link #60
octaviahawk
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Originally Posted by yakumo-chan View Post
I am 99% sure that TObi is someone we knew or a character that was introduced before,
because it would be nonsense to hide his face for almost 5 years,
That's a good point. Geez I wish it was possible for Tobi to be one of the former Hokages...that would have been epic. Obviously it can't happen because of the whole death god thing, but it would have been super

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollian View Post
Hold on Guys, Tobi could still be Kagami Uchiha, he's old enough, kagami is "assumed" to be dead so know one knows if his really die or alive?, he was the student of the 2nd Hokage, which could explain his space time ninjitsu also, and was team mates with danzo, so that could also explain how he knew so well about danzo, I'm still holding out, but if it is Obito, I think we would all be winners on that and Kisi would have given up on holding out on us all for this long. worse kept Secret ever told as all of us at one point thought that Tobi is Obito.
go on, admit it!.. I dare you if you didn't even believe it just for even a second.
Wow, I'd never heard about the possibility of Kagami Uchiha but now that you mention it, it makes a TON of sense. A lot more than Tobi being Obito, at the very least
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