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Old 2012-07-17, 22:32   Link #81
NoemiChan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It's okay, particularly if the subs aren't out yet. If the subs are already released, it's not required to use spoiler tags to discuss the current episode, if you're not doing any comparisons or anything. The only reason people use spoiler tags in that case is to try to be considerate it for people who haven't seen it yet (but these days, the delay between airing and sub is usually not very high).

All that to say, if you watched it subbed and have no comparisons, you don't need a tag.
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Old 2012-07-17, 22:51   Link #82
AmeNoJaku
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What about
  • future episodes titles
  • chronological order
  • number/title of corresponding chapter/page (but not content) in the original work
OK, not OK, hidden with warning?
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Old 2012-07-18, 01:25   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
What about
  • future episodes titles
  • chronological order
  • number/title of corresponding chapter/page (but not content) in the original work
OK, not OK, hidden with warning?
For the first, the Spoiler Policy says that "Posting and discussing content found on official sites or blogs" is permitted under clearly marked spoiler tags. Future episode titles, if revealed on one of those sources for the anime (not for the novel), would be counted under this. If it was not revealed on an official anime source and is based on knowledge from the novels, then it is forbidden in anime threads (can be discussed in the novel thread).

I'll get back to the second below.

For the third, if the episode has already aired, this is permitted behind properly-labelled spoiler tags (but I question if it's really needed in an anime thread; this sort of detailed novel comparison is better-suited for the novel thread). If the episode has not aired, it is forbidden in anime threads (can be discussed in the novel thread).


Now, chronology. I'm not honestly going to claim that this situation is so clear-cut. I have been in a situation before (Yosuga no Sora, to be precise) where the odd structure of the show has caused so much confusion that I thought it essential to make this sort of structural clarification as prominent as possible. But this was an unusual "threaded-omnibus" style story and was speculation (that became increasingly clear) based on hints in the episodes and in the Blu-Ray listings, not really invoking anything from the source material.

In the case of the specific show you're talking about, I think the issue is that all the novel titles and the specific volumes are a bit like "more information than you require". Forgive me for not knowing, but how has the organization of the anime episodes been revealed? Is it necessary to give the titles and volumes for every episode just to explain the order? Is understanding the chronology really essential to enjoying the show; would it be okay if an anime viewer just takes it as it comes and pieces it together later? Is the order of the episodes intended to be part of the mystery to anime-only viewers? Why is it so important that people understand this before continuing to watch the show?

It's clear to me (based on reports) that some people do not want to see the novel structure brought up in the anime thread, because it alludes to future content not shown and (some feel) it's not on-topic. Perhaps more information can make this clearer, though...
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Old 2012-07-18, 03:00   Link #84
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Thanks for clarifying It seems overly complicated, but after having a look at the Fate/ subforum... well, makes sense

Now specifically for Jinrui, I haven't read the novels myself, but because the official english translation has a lot of issues, especially with the last episode, as well as with Joshiraku and quite probably Ebiten, I think that some clarifications are necessary, whether they come from novel or japanese language/culture knowledge... technically these are perceived and thoughtlessly reported as a spoiler, since they pertain information not presented to the english-only-speaking fans, but have been part of the anime. This I found particulalry helpful with Joshiraku, when a poster explained some wordplays, which were overlocalized. Vice versa, in Jinrui when I had to explain a couple of times some cultural/language issues that were ignored (tori kanji and manga vs doujinshi)

As for the episode titles of Jinrui, despite the rules here which I accept, still I see the complain quite paranoid... by the same reasoning a show's title itself spoils events not yet presented since it alludes to the process that brought mankind in the circumstances presented thus far.
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Old 2012-07-18, 09:33   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
Now specifically for Jinrui, I haven't read the novels myself, but because the official english translation has a lot of issues, especially with the last episode, as well as with Joshiraku and quite probably Ebiten, I think that some clarifications are necessary, whether they come from novel or japanese language/culture knowledge... technically these are perceived and thoughtlessly reported as a spoiler, since they pertain information not presented to the english-only-speaking fans, but have been part of the anime. This I found particulalry helpful with Joshiraku, when a poster explained some wordplays, which were overlocalized. Vice versa, in Jinrui when I had to explain a couple of times some cultural/language issues that were ignored (tori kanji and manga vs doujinshi)
Well, to be clear, we do allow novel comparisons for episodes that have already-aired, provided it's behind properly-labelled spoiler tags. So this type of "clarification" is okay, and I personally agree can be useful and valuable. So, on this front, no problem, so long as it's labelled and tagged properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
As for the episode titles of Jinrui, despite the rules here which I accept, still I see the complain quite paranoid... by the same reasoning a show's title itself spoils events not yet presented since it alludes to the process that brought mankind in the circumstances presented thus far.
Well, again, I don't think I have enough information about the situation to fully understand it. In my simplistic (uninformed) view, it seems like it should be possible to just show the order of the episodes by number not title/volume/chapter, until each episode airs. That way, the order is made clear, but the details are left to be discovered... But again, I don't really know the show, so if it's better explained, perhaps I can come up with a better suggestion.
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Old 2012-07-18, 09:50   Link #86
milan kyuubi
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Trowing a little suggestion for Admin/Mods. To decrease the amount of spoilers (especially for anime without it's own sub-forum), why not simple use Rot13?
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Old 2012-07-18, 12:40   Link #87
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Just a question: Do we have to use the [nsfw] for nsfw pictures? I personally hate the dynamic version, so I always make it obvious that what I am posting is NSFW as the description of the spoiler tag.
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Old 2012-07-18, 15:57   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milan kyuubi View Post
Trowing a little suggestion for Admin/Mods. To decrease the amount of spoilers (especially for anime without it's own sub-forum), why not simple use Rot13?
I'm not sure that really solves a problem. We already have a spoiler tag to hide the spoilers. The issue is that people post spoilers in anime threads that we don't want to be placed there in the first place, or that they post things in the clear that we want to be marked/obscured. Changing from our current tags to rot13 doesn't really do anything to address those problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Just a question: Do we have to use the [nsfw] for nsfw pictures? I personally hate the dynamic version, so I always make it obvious that what I am posting is NSFW as the description of the spoiler tag.
Hiding images behind the old spoiler tag isn't really great because it's still downloaded on people's computers even if the person can't instantly see it on screen (if they do happen to be at work, even downloading the NSFW image is a bad idea -- though I suppose it's not a good idea to browse an anime forum at work anyway...). The other problem is that it muddies the water of what is and isn't really a spoiler.

I would say that we are trying to transition people away from using the old spoiler tag for that reason, and we may in fact remove the old spoiler tag entirely at some point. If you have suggestions about how to improve the dynamic tags, we'd appreciate it in the discussion thread.

So all that to say... I'm not saying that we're going to aggressively go after people for using the wrong kind of tag at the moment, but that is the direction we're heading, so I'd prefer if we can improve the tag so that you'll want to use it. I at least think it's a lot nicer if the tags themselves indicate the kind of content within. Otherwise, the Forum Rules actually specify that NSFW images have to be links and not inline (again, to prevent it from being downloaded automatically). I think this hasn't been very consistently enforced, but again, I think we're trying to move towards making things clearer and more consistent.
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Old 2012-07-19, 15:39   Link #89
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Just a small question for the moderators.

In the past, I'd sometimes use spoiler space just to save space. This is frequently done for lengthier Visitor Messages that I post on various member's walls, for example.

Is it still acceptable to use spoiler tags for this purpose, or is it no longer acceptable to use it this way? (And if it's not acceptable, what's the suggested alternative?)
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Old 2012-07-19, 16:51   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
(And if it's not acceptable, what's the suggested alternative?)
No idea if they're still acceptable or not but I figure the alternative is the new tldr tag

TL;DR…
 
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2012-07-19, 18:10   Link #91
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Please do use them! They're basically live now. I'll move them to "production" as soon as I have some free time to implement the feedback I received. Might not happen until the forum itself gets an upgrade.
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Old 2012-07-20, 02:00   Link #92
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Otsukare~~, moderators.
I hope having the sticky on the top of the forums will lower the amount of people that break the spoiler rules. (Not that it affected me much personally though)
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Old 2012-07-20, 10:19   Link #93
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Here's an idea, how about we accept that if you go onto a discussion forum about a show you're watching people are going to discuss that show including background material relating to it's plot and characters?

Because frankly if stuff is kept in spoiler tags the ONLY way to be spoiled is to specifically open and look at them. Spoiler tags should make it acceptable to post anything, in any thread, anytime end of debate (assuming it's not rampantly off topic). It's a clear cut rule that's easy to remember and allows hedging of "if in doubt tag it". The policy in place has often muddy guidelines about what is and isn't acceptable and is often basically blind guessing, or just at the whim of a given mod that sees it. One might not care unless someone outright says in plain text something like "oh yeah the main character dies in episode X" in the slightest, while another tosses out bans for the most banal of infractions.

This uncertainty is killing conversation, keeping the informed from educating the curious, and generally making what should be fun conversations with other fans a stressful juggling acts as you debate what is and isn't a spoiler, and if you can post it even IF you take precautions and preface it as such. This is seriously the only forum I've EVER seen where posting background information IN spoiler tags, with a big label in front of it proclaiming it such in response to a DIRECT QUESTION by a curious viewer is a possibly ban-able offense, and that's beyond ridiculous.
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Old 2012-07-21, 00:09   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Here's an idea, how about we accept that if you go onto a discussion forum about a show you're watching people are going to discuss that show including background material relating to it's plot and characters?

Because frankly if stuff is kept in spoiler tags the ONLY way to be spoiled is to specifically open and look at them. Spoiler tags should make it acceptable to post anything, in any thread, anytime end of debate (assuming it's not rampantly off topic). It's a clear cut rule that's easy to remember and allows hedging of "if in doubt tag it".
The whole reason we have this policy is because we used to have what you are saying, and what happened? We had many threads that contained nothing but pages and pages of spoiler-tagged posts (generally poorly-labelled), and people who didn't care about the source material and just wanted to discuss the anime felt shoved out of the forum. It was impossible to draw the line about when things went "rampantly off-topic", particularly because it meant we on the staff had to be constantly opening spoiler tags and spoiling ourselves on every show just to monitor the conversation. Precisely because of "when in doubt, tag it", people were posting almost anything and everything in spoiler tags because they figured "if I put it behind tags, I can't get in trouble". But what good does it do if every single post is spoiler tags, even if it isn't really spoilers? You get into the habit of opening spoiler tags just to follow the regular conversation, and suddenly in the middle you have a game-changing spoiler marked just like every other. In oher words, your very suggestion had unintended consequences that ballooned into a crisis. That's where we were.

So, the decision was made to constrain the topic: anything that hasn't been shown yet in the anime is off-topic. That is the heart of the spoiler policy. And so yes, the whole point was to limit conversation in the anime threads, and instead move it to the threads for the source material, where the source material can be discussed freely and generally without requiring spoiler tags. We still do allow comparisons to already-aired material, and that covers our bases in 95%+ of the circumstances.

I see from your post history that you're a Muv-Luv fan, and I assumed as much by the phrasing of your post. You have to remember that Total Eclipse is a very unique situation that doesn't impact the vast majority of the other shows. Changing an entire forum's spoiler policy just to accommodate a few exceptions is not good practice because, again, you have to be wary of the unintended consequences (and in this case, we already know what those will be, because that's where we came from). In this case, you also have to understand that there are some anime viewers who may not want to be spoiled on the games, and whose viewing experience does not depend on being "informed". Our normal spoiler rules would suggest that this non-anime material is off-topic for the anime thread. The question then comes: so where can these game background spoilers go? I tried to create a thread for that (which you have been posting in), but I guess you are saying that it's still not good enough, and I've heard a few others insinuate the same. So what other thread do we need that will meet the need? Or, perhaps it's better to start with: exactly what is the need, and how can we fill it while staying within the constraints of our global policy? I'm willing to listen to good ideas. Some have said that the series just needs a sub-forum, but even if that were to happen, I don't see how that solves it, because the episode threads would still have the same rules as we have now. So, if you could create a thread where the needed discussion could occur, what would it be? (Again, keep in mind that the spoiler policy will not change at this time.)
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Old 2012-07-21, 02:15   Link #95
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^ Honestly, it's time to give the Muv-Luv franchise its well-deserved subforum.
It, along with SAO (which already has a subforum), suffered the most spoilers-wise, and in Muv-Luv's case, it would be a case wherein the necessity of having a subforum overrides the requirements needed (i.e. the discussion would still go chaotic unless the three threads are segregated into its specific threads and these threads are gathered into a subforum).

As for the problem of controlling spoilers, it will still be in the hands of the poster — or the fanbase sometimes. We can never tell how much management and how much leniency (the Goldilocks zone of moderation) is needed to keep spoilers from spoiling others, and forcing them to go through one side of the spectrum abruptly is not really a sure way avoid spoilers.

You can ban all those people who will post the smallest spoiler, but there will still be spoilers running loose.
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Old 2012-07-21, 10:13   Link #96
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...But that doesn't really solve the problem. Even in the sub-forum, the same rules regarding spoilers would apply. So, if people are getting upset that the Spoiler Policy is "killing conversation, keeping the informed from educating the curious, and generally making what should be fun conversations with other fans a stressful juggling acts as you debate what is and isn't a spoiler"... how does that change with a sub-forum? I can't see how it does. So there has to be another solution.
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Old 2012-07-21, 19:25   Link #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
This I found particulalry helpful with Joshiraku, when a poster explained some wordplays, which were overlocalized. Vice versa, in Jinrui when I had to explain a couple of times some cultural/language issues that were ignored (tori kanji and manga vs doujinshi)
I know at least one of those involved me. I don't think the Joshiraku thing was "overlocalization", just making it as funny to read in English as it was in Japanese, though having the nature of the puns explained for people was nice and not a spoiler. The manga/doujinshi thing wasn't the fault of the translators. I know what doujins and fujoshi and all of that stuff is, I had just been marathoning anime something crazy that night due to circumstances, so my review was typed up quickly, with only a moment's break before moving onto the next show (and, honestly, I find the differences between manga and doujins minimal. Fans are part of the industry too.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
As for the episode titles of Jinrui, despite the rules here which I accept, still I see the complain quite paranoid... by the same reasoning a show's title itself spoils events not yet presented since it alludes to the process that brought mankind in the circumstances presented thus far.
Now in this case, the reason why I called that a spoiler was because the person in question had basically outlined the entire twelve/thirteen episode series... after episode one. And even if the titles of the future episodes didn't reveal everything, they're not what I wanted to see. They still gave some hint as to what the content would be, and having an entire series, full of mysteries and world building, outlined from the very beginning takes the wind out of your sails. The title of the series itself isn't a spoiler, because someone would see that before they picked it up, but I feel the titles of future content are. As an anime viewer, the titles of future episodes are supposed to be revealed to me gradually, not in one fell swoop with their placement outlined. It took something away from the experience.
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Old 2012-09-23, 00:06   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
if people are getting upset that the Spoiler Policy is "killing conversation, keeping the informed from educating the curious, and generally making what should be fun conversations with other fans a stressful juggling acts as you debate what is and isn't a spoiler"... how does that change with a sub-forum? I can't see how it does. So there has to be another solution.
having been banned just recently due to speculations/spoilers that i put on spoiler tags, i gotta say this place has one harsh policy for spoilers, even spoiler tags should be free from spoilers, now that is anti metaspoiler or spoilerception right there (spoilers beyond/inside spoiler tags are ban here), i guess i should not be so excited about talking anime/manga around here

i guess since its allowed to still post in this thread then i will say your perplexing or making the spoiler issue so complex

it could have been more easy to just say on the rules
- all spoilers should be put in spoiler tags
- if you hate spoilers then do not read anything inside the spoiler tags
thats all

but ye every forum has its own rules and own level (weak/strong/gauge) of enforcing their rules so i guess time to find or go back to other forums

Last edited by j0x; 2012-09-23 at 00:28. Reason: suggestions
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Old 2012-09-23, 01:19   Link #99
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Originally Posted by j0x View Post
it could have been more easy to just say on the rules
- all spoilers should be put in spoiler tags
- if you hate spoilers then do not read anything inside the spoiler tags
thats all
If you read more posts in this thread you can see why we moved away from this insufficient policy many years ago. In particular, I explained the problem here (just a few posts up).
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