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Old 2012-07-19, 07:53   Link #81
Whitemoon648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
i hate to compare the three series but among them, one piece has the least inconsistencies (if there are any at all, some may argue that they couldn't find any) and it's the longest running series among the three. it's not about the length of the series, it's about the author's ability to write consistently. kubo is probably the most inconsistent among them but kishi seems to be catching up in that department. as far as i'm concerned, he still hasn't explained why kakashi gained mangekyou or if indeed he did since some fans seem to think kakashi's "mangekyou" is merely an upgraded sharingan. that should have been explained years ago but he seems to have forgotten that little piece of detail. that's just one of the many unanswered questions, inconsistencies or what others call asspulls in narutoverse. if he does answer them later, i hope he could justify why he had to wait all the way to the end of the manga to answer them.
I personally think one piece has much less inconsistencies than the other two as well. And yes Kubi is a really good and consistent writer if you ask me. But i think it would be a bit unfair to compare Naruto and one piece story wise. Imo Naruto's story is more deep and complicated than one piece while one piece is more straight forward (just personal opinion).


One thing for me personally that hasn't been consistent in one piece is the relation between Haki and DFs. I don't think Kubi has been that clear about how they work together and when they do and when they don't. Let me rephrase that, Most of the time he probably has been but many times he hasn't. I won't get into this much more than this as this is a Naruto thread.

Don't get me wrong, i like one piece more than Naruto in terms of enjoyment but i still think Naruto's story is a bit better ( not by much but still better).

Imo One piece beats Naruto in terms of character design while Naruto beats one piece in terms of story.


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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
You haven't disagreed with anything I've said, you've only provided your ideas about how to explain the inconsistencies I raised. I didn't go into that in the first place, I was merely summarizing the basics of the argument to Dengar.
Now I do disagree with your opinion on many points and I could go into that if you wish to discuss this further (though the who is Tobi thread is a better place for that).
I was doing both . Disagreeing ( on a few points not all ) and giving examples of how inconsistencies could get explained. But in a way , i guess you are right too. You were just summarizing the thought process behind the theory and it's inconsistencies. I personally do think some of the inconsistencies mentioned have been touched upon and some what explained but i guess having more explanation from Kishimoto would be nice. I personally thought talking about Tobi=obito and things related to that were ok in this thread but it seems i have gone off topic. My apologies .
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter
Personally my new pet theory is that Tobi is some kind of Zetsu offset, a mish mash of the personalities of dead shinobi that Zetsu ate. Hence his ridiculous amount of knowledge spanning generations, his weird body, his personality all over the place, the fact that he call himself No one and his desire to end individuality.
Very good theory. I like it. I think there are many plausible theories at the moment and although i am leaning toward the Obito= Tobi theory, i still think there is a good chance that might not be the case.
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Old 2012-07-19, 09:42   Link #82
ragnos007
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Originally Posted by solidguy View Post
Naruto's counter argument to Tobi was alot better than his argument towards Nagato. Gave me chills when he rebutted Tobi's infinite dream with his own dream. Buuuuuuut the chapter was slightly spoiled for mine with the Obito theory gaining weight, if for no other reason that the Obito theory fans will undoubtedly be pointing it out...
SEEEE TOBI IS OBITO!!!!!
I said that all along
:P lol
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Old 2012-07-19, 10:18   Link #83
yakumo-chan
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there is still a mystery in Naruto which is Kakashi's Mangekyou sharingan
how the hell did Kakashi unlock it?

I have this theory that Obito is still alive, and he unlocked his mangekyou sharingan,
and since Kakashi's eye and Obito's eye is a pair, Kakashi also gained the Mangekyou sharingan
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Old 2012-07-19, 10:44   Link #84
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Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
I personally thought talking about Tobi=obito and things related to that were ok in this thread but it seems i have gone off topic. My apologies .
No no it's ok, the Tobi identity is a big part of this chapter, I meant that if I was going to make a long in depth answer about it I'd rather use the dedicated thread rather than answer you in this one.
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Old 2012-07-19, 11:37   Link #85
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by j0x View Post
correct me if im wrong about this, i remember the 4th Hokage is the master of Obito/Rin/Kakashi and they are kids at that time, and at the same time the 4th Hokage fight against Tobi at an old age too just like he is now, so thats a heavy blow on the Obito=Tobi theory right? i mean the age for Obito should have been same as Tobi during the 4th Hokage's timeline right?
well tobi is clearly not an entire body and constructed of zetsu goo so he could feasibly be any size the maker wanted

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Originally Posted by thewupk View Post
For some reason the time traveling Sasuke theory is at the top of my list right now of who is Obito.
unfortunately its one of the few theories that hasn't been eliminated yet

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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
as far as i'm concerned, he still hasn't explained why kakashi gained mangekyou or if indeed he did since some fans seem to think kakashi's "mangekyou" is merely an upgraded sharingan. that should have been explained years ago but he seems to have forgotten that little piece of detail
not forgotten. just waiting until kakashi became relevant again so we will probably find out all of kakashi and his team's mysteries soon since he is now officially relevant again

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
tobi doesn't have mangekyou or at least he hasn't been seen activating it.
this is an assumption. we haven't seen it up close because it would give away his identity. i think he has been using it

Quote:
if he does possess mangekyou then he should be able to use susanoo and amaterasu as well. but so far he hasn't displayed any of these abilities. if he does have them then why hasn't he used them yet?
not necessarily either. MS techs aren't identical among ninja. look at kakashi for instance
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Old 2012-07-19, 13:50   Link #86
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Originally Posted by j0x View Post
Ten-Tails is basically the God on the naruto universe, so the same questions can be asked here on our universe that who created God? wheres that God comes from?
Apparently in japan the term "god" is very different from our western god. We here have the jewish-christian-muslim idea of god, which is basicly an omnipotent eternal and immortal being, but most importantly its infinite compared to us, it has infinite power and wisdom, etc. So we can't imagine a god being killed because it's impossible by definition. In ancient cultures like in the greek or north mythology the gods were much weaker. An example of that is Thor in recent movies, he is supposed to be an ancient god, but he can be killed. In Shintoism there are many gods, i don't know the details, but my guess is the ideas in Naruto are mainly connected to this sort of religion. I mean a god being some kind of super-animal as it has 10 tails, it being simply a force of nature, and we weren't told anything about it's intelligence. In western culture god is super-intelligent, humans cannot possibly understand that level of thinking, that's the opposite of what we have seen of the 10-tails until now. Someone who knows well Shintoism could probably explain if the 10-tails can be based on something there.
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Old 2012-07-19, 15:05   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Personally my new pet theory is that Tobi is some kind of Zetsu offset, a mish mash of the personalities of dead shinobi that Zetsu ate. Hence his ridiculous amount of knowledge spanning generations, his weird body, his personality all over the place, the fact that he call himself No one and his desire to end individuality.
I think that's a really good point, and something I've thought about for a while. I imagine that back in the day, Zetsu saved Tobi (whoever he is) from death, and then Tobi, to return the favor, creates the Black Zetsu, making Zetsu more bad-ass (because let's face it, white Zetsu is just fodder)

I've always been intrigued by the fact that Tobi created the Black Zetsu. I think it's a big clue that often gets overlooked. What is the relationship between Tobi and Zetsu? After all, Zetsu is the last remaining Akatsuki member left on the playing field--why? What's the big conspiracy that only Zetsu and Tobi are privy to????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Apparently in japan the term "god" is very different from our western god. We here have the jewish-christian-muslim idea of god, which is basicly an omnipotent eternal and immortal being, but most importantly its infinite compared to us, it has infinite power and wisdom, etc. So we can't imagine a god being killed because it's impossible by definition. In ancient cultures like in the greek or north mythology the gods were much weaker. An example of that is Thor in recent movies, he is supposed to be an ancient god, but he can be killed. In Shintoism there are many gods, i don't know the details, but my guess is the ideas in Naruto are mainly connected to this sort of religion. I mean a god being some kind of super-animal as it has 10 tails, it being simply a force of nature, and we weren't told anything about it's intelligence. In western culture god is super-intelligent, humans cannot possibly understand that level of thinking, that's the opposite of what we have seen of the 10-tails until now. Someone who knows well Shintoism could probably explain if the 10-tails can be based on something there.

That's a really interesting point there. I wonder what the original Japanese said--probably, the 10 tails is some kind of Kami, or spirit--a primordial spirit from whose essence the whole world was made. I kind of imagine putting the ten tails together would equal putting together an immense amount of power--like putting a whole bunch of nuclear energy together. No wonder why it's supposed to harbor the end of the world: its energy is too powerful to have all in one place. What do you guys think?
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Old 2012-07-19, 15:05   Link #88
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Originally Posted by yakumo-chan View Post
I dont think so, there are some pages in the manga where TObi removes his mask but Kishimoto still dont show his face, what's the reason?
I think its stupid to hide tobi's face to the readers if he is someone we dont know.
As I said before, this is the exact reason to use a mask. I'm not saying he is no one we know, but the possibility is there. Giving him a mask gives the reader the illusion that he's someone they know.
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Old 2012-07-19, 15:13   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Apparently in japan the term "god" is very different from our western god. We here have the jewish-christian-muslim idea of god, which is basicly an omnipotent eternal and immortal being, but most importantly its infinite compared to us, it has infinite power and wisdom, etc. So we can't imagine a god being killed because it's impossible by definition. In ancient cultures like in the greek or north mythology the gods were much weaker. An example of that is Thor in recent movies, he is supposed to be an ancient god, but he can be killed. In Shintoism there are many gods, i don't know the details, but my guess is the ideas in Naruto are mainly connected to this sort of religion. I mean a god being some kind of super-animal as it has 10 tails, it being simply a force of nature, and we weren't told anything about it's intelligence. In western culture god is super-intelligent, humans cannot possibly understand that level of thinking, that's the opposite of what we have seen of the 10-tails until now. Someone who knows well Shintoism could probably explain if the 10-tails can be based on something there.
I can't speak much for Japanese mythology due to my ignorance of it, but "God" as the monotheistic being, as far as Abrahamism ideas go, is more of a incomprehensible and spiritual being, a creator for all things in existence without equal...With ancient Greek and Roman mythology, things get complex when there are multiple deities that each have their personified rule, the existences of such that layer each other starting with those that created and started with the beginning of existence and descend on down into more deities, and, barring any interactions with mortal heros, are all considered immortals...

Going by what little I know, I could probably conclude whatever basis in Japanese mythology the Juubi is based on is comparative to Greek mythology's primordial deities, in that it created the way the world is in the Naruto universe...Although by that same account, while one of it's names "Ame no Hitotsu no Kami" suggests, well, it's most literally a one-eyed god, I believe the "god" part is more human/mortal-based as a name, since it's very otherworldly in comparison to any normal human observer...It's other names, with some research, "Datara" (with possible reference to Ippon-datara) and "Daidarabocchi" make it more of a monster, like the Titans or Giants, with it's actions being very destructive and demon-like, and yet still a "creator" of sorts none-the-less...The same "god" classification could be put into debate with the Rikudou Sennin, a mortal savior himself who defeated a deity or otherworldly monster of sorts...

When real-life Japanese mythology is incorporated into ninjutsu itself, I almost wonder if there even is a real god/deity of any kind that's worshiped in the Naruto universe...Jashin doesn't count because of a single mad man, however...
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Old 2012-07-19, 15:25   Link #90
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If you go to its literal basis, it is "The being that created the world and all there is.". Whether you'll call it a god or not is up to you.
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Old 2012-07-19, 19:38   Link #91
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Doubt tobi is obito cause obito didn't seem like a master planner someone who would create an organization/control the mizukage/etc also when kisame saw his face i doubt he knew who obito was. It might be obitos body but someone else controlling it. Also from the time he was removing his mask to show sasuke it looked like he had an aged face more older than kakashi but that could be because of experimenting with jutsus. Also when obito died he didn't seem to have any grudges
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Old 2012-07-19, 21:13   Link #92
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So...what's the best explanation for Tobi being a grown adult when he fought Minato if he's really Obito?
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Old 2012-07-19, 23:40   Link #93
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Henge no jutsu! I still don't think it's him though.
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Old 2012-07-20, 01:01   Link #94
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Obito is so lame... please don't mention that guy again in this manga.
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Old 2012-07-20, 01:28   Link #95
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I wonder why Tobi is fighting Naruto in the first place, if an incomplete ten tails is all he needs to achieve his goal. He could have cut tail hours ago, since he already had the tentacle and the chakra from Ginkaku and Kinkaku. Or he could have just started summoning the beast where he is right now at the time when nobody was around.

But again, this can be explained by Cael's theory that Tobi is Obito's father. He has personal issues with both Kakashi and Naruto. He hates the former, because he couldn't protect his son, and the latter, to seek revenge for the death of Obito. I really like this theory.
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Old 2012-07-20, 03:32   Link #96
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I wonder why Tobi is fighting Naruto in the first place, if an incomplete ten tails is all he needs to achieve his goal. He could have cut tail hours ago, since he already had the tentacle and the chakra from Ginkaku and Kinkaku. Or he could have just started summoning the beast where he is right now at the time when nobody was around.
Most likely, "choosing the easy way out" has a weakness.
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Old 2012-07-20, 04:21   Link #97
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
this is an assumption. we haven't seen it up close because it would give away his identity. i think he has been using it

not necessarily either. MS techs aren't identical among ninja. look at kakashi for instance
tobi having mangekyou is an assumption too. unless kishi gives us a legitimate reason to believe that he does, it will remain a big question mark. i will consider him "mangekyou-less" until then.

i once read a theory that the mangekyou abilities differ among families, that's why both sasuke and itachi have susanoo and amaterasu. while shisui's mangekyou allowed him to become the most powerful genjutsu user in the clan's history (though i think shisui's ability was simply unique), and kakashi's supposed mangekyou is different as well. the fact that madara can also summon susanoo could mean that he is closely related to itachi's family. i personally think this to be too presumptious since we haven't really seen any other mangekyou users save for sasuke, itachi, madara, shisui and supposedly kakashi. there's very little basis for this theory. though i don't deny this possibility as well.

the idea of kakashi having mangekyou has also been debated before. some fans think that his is merely an evolved form of the sharingan and so tobi's ability could merely be something similar to that. kakashi not having truly achieved mangekyou is the most logical explanation for kishi's lack of explanation. mangekyou was supposed to be achieved after killing someone very close to you or bearing the guilt of that death. to my knowledge, kakashi hasn't killed anyone close to him (unless kishi forgot to reveal that little piece of info). someone once said that perhaps kakashi felt guilty for obito's death. then why the heck didn't his mangekyou activate the moment obito died? did his mangekyou wait 12-15 years before activating? i doubt it.
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Old 2012-07-20, 05:43   Link #98
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Didn't Kakashi CALL it the Mangekyou sharingan at one point? Also, too little is known about the Mangekyou to be 100% sure of "how" to activate it, all we know is hearsay. Also, "Kakashi's thing is just an evolved Sharingan"... So it IS a Mangekyou because Mangekyou IS the evolved form of Sharingan. >_>
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Old 2012-07-20, 06:48   Link #99
ronin myael
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Didn't Kakashi CALL it the Mangekyou sharingan at one point? Also, too little is known about the Mangekyou to be 100% sure of "how" to activate it, all we know is hearsay. Also, "Kakashi's thing is just an evolved Sharingan"... So it IS a Mangekyou because Mangekyou IS the evolved form of Sharingan. >_>
that's why it needs to be explained, don't you think? you say everything we know about mangekyou sharingan is mere hearsay, then don't you think kishi should have given us a run down on how it is achieved instead of just letting us guess? after all the hax abilities he afforded the sharingan, he still hasn't explained how mangekyou is achieved.

kakashi called it that but what does he really know about mangekyou? he's not even an uchiha. mangekyou has been deemed a forbidden ability for so long, i doubt a lot of people in konoha knew about it. if mangekyou is simply an evolved ability then why hasn't everyone tried to achieve it? kakashi's sharingan evolution could simply be something that occurred through extensive training. while mangekyou requires something else. it requires a trigger and that trigger has a very high price, otherwise all sharingan users would have tried to gain it.
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Old 2012-07-20, 08:17   Link #100
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there is no way obito is tobi/madara due to the fact that, in the kakashi gaiden we see the fourth and obito and kakashi at a young age, then obito dies right, then when kushina tells the story of minato vs madara we also see gai and kakashi walking/talking how ever they look older, but not fully grown... and then we see fourth vs tobi and he doesnt look like a person to be kakashi age nor does he sound like it, and the knowledege he contains is overwhelming..
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