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Old 2012-03-20, 12:37   Link #361
Solace
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's honestly not the feeling I was getting. I wasn't getting clear signals in either direction here. I don't think that much can be safely assumed about Kamijou's feelings towards Sayaka. It's quite conceivable that he might have accepted a romantic confession from Sayaka if she had made one.

Yes, Kamijou snapped off at Sayaka once, but it was for reasons that didn't have to do with her, per se. Listening to beautiful violin music when he no longer could play the violin filled him with angry regret, at least for a moment. It's understandable.
It's conceivable but I just didn't get that feeling. How it felt to me was that she was the one showing up every day, encouraging him, and in return she got "you're a good friend". Did he seek her out when he was released? No, the excuse was that he was so busy with everyone else, he couldn't find time for her. Obviously she had the disadvantage of her Magical Girl duties, while Hitomi could be near him more often after he was out, but still...I just got zero romantic vibes from the guy.

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How can you reciprocate something that you don't even know is there? Was Kamijo reciprocating any feelings to Hitomi before she confessed to him?
And this is a good point. How do you? Isn't that kind of the problem with Sayaka's wish, that she was warned about? He would never know, unless she explained everything, what she did for him. She did it anyway, naively hoping that his getting better would improve their relationship (clearly after all that time in the hospital it wasn't going anywhere), and instead her choice drove them further apart. I don't know about Hitomi....I seem to recall she was closer due to being a childhood friend. As you said before, it's conceivable that if Sayaka confessed, he might have accepted. Even so, I still have doubts about her happiness.

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I don't think that she was naive about justice. Love, perhaps, but not justice.

What's naive about wanting to protect the people that you love? What's naive about objecting to somebody letting innocent people die in order to collect Grief Seeds? I don't think a person would need to be naive to agree with Sayaka here. I'm certainly inclined to agree with her on both of these points.
She wasn't naive in her desire, but she was naive in her approach. She took a stern view on injustice, that "bad guys are bad because they are bad" kind of mentality. Her judgment bordered on impulsive and rash, with little thought given to morality or consequences. Most of all she burdened herself too much, refusing the hands reached out to her.

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Now, I don't think that this ruins Hitomi's character or means that she should be completely hated. But I don't see the point in sugarcoating what Hitomi did. In truth, she put romantic desire before long-standing friendship. She has a right to do that, but viewers also have a right to disagree with it.
I agree.
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Old 2012-03-20, 12:52   Link #362
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
It's conceivable but I just didn't get that feeling. How it felt to me was that she was the one showing up every day, encouraging him, and in return she got "you're a good friend". Did he seek her out when he was released? No, the excuse was that he was so busy with everyone else, he couldn't find time for her. Obviously she had the disadvantage of her Magical Girl duties, while Hitomi could be near him more often after he was out, but still...I just got zero romantic vibes from the guy.
It wasn't much, but the scene where he shared earpieces with Sayaka (one for his ear, and one for her's) struck me as slightly romantic.

My overall take on Kamijo is that he's typically a lowkey, easy-going guy that doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve (but like many artists, his passions probably run high when it comes to his art). In that sense, I actually do think that Hitomi is probably a better personality match for him than Sayaka is (I think that Sayaka would genuinely be happier, long-term, with a much more upbeat and passionate guy - somebody like Star Driver's Takuto Tsunashi or Angel Beats!'s Hinata is pretty close to my conception of Sayaka's ideal boyfriend).


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And this is a good point. How do you? Isn't that kind of the problem with Sayaka's wish, that she was warned about? He would never know, unless she explained everything, what she did for him. She did it anyway, naively hoping that his getting better would improve their relationship (clearly after all that time in the hospital it wasn't going anywhere), and instead her choice drove them further apart.
Yeah, this is why I didn't disagree with you on Sayaka being naive about love. I think her heart is in the right place for love, but her mind isn't.


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I don't know about Hitomi....I seem to recall she was closer due to being a childhood friend.
Actually, Hitomi said to Sayaka that Sayaka has known Kamijo longer than Hitomi has. That in fact was part of the reason why Hitomi said she'd let Sayaka have a 24-hour head-start on Hitomi, basically.


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As you said before, it's conceivable that if Sayaka confessed, he might have accepted. Even so, I still have doubts about her happiness.
Yeah, I'm with you here. I think that something would have to change Kamijo for him to become the guy that Sayaka believes him to be.


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She wasn't naive in her desire, but she was naive in her approach. She took a stern view on injustice, that "bad guys are bad because they are bad" kind of mentality. Her judgment bordered on impulsive and rash, with little thought given to morality or consequences. Most of all she burdened herself too much, refusing the hands reached out to her.
Yeah, those are pretty fair points. I would say that Sayaka's biggest weakness was being impulsive. She took most things at face value without digging below the surface. That can help a person make quick decisions, but not always the best ones.
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Old 2012-07-19, 10:30   Link #363
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Sayaka ultimate fate in the PSP game always is suffering

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Old 2012-07-19, 14:02   Link #364
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So even in the game she gets the short end of the stick. No surprise, considering that her love issues and "best friend" (shudders) always end up scewing her over in the end.
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Old 2012-07-20, 09:07   Link #365
Coldlight
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Meh, they're always picking on her.

While we're on the topic about Sayaka and the PSP game (which I've never tried since I have no PSP ), I found her translated skill tree for the game.
Images
Skill Tree
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I have to say that I like the names, themes and concepts of her skills. Blades, Music, Healing and Water. Typhoon in particular, has got me interested.
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Old 2012-07-20, 20:38   Link #366
Akuma Kinomoto
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Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
Sayaka ultimate fate in the PSP game always is suffering

A Kyouko from another show sneering at Sayaka's misfortune. Can we say "irony"?
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Old 2014-05-03, 11:05   Link #367
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the suffering got broken!
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Old 2014-05-03, 15:56   Link #368
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Having recently rewatched Madoka Magica, I think Sayaka may well be my favourite character.

People have been comparing her to Micchy from Kamen Rider Gaim, and I just - don't buy that. Micchy is a backstabbing, stalkery, treacherous little dweeb who's not as smart or as desirable as he thinks he is. Sayaka is pretty awesome, she just goes through some awful stuff: Her mentor figure dies in front of her, leaving her to feel like she's the only one who can protect the city (because she does have that justice-hero-thing), she realises that she's basically a walking corpse, she gets tortured, etc.

I think she is a bit naive in her view of justice and heroism, but I don't think that has to be a bad thing. The other thing is, I think that while the show toys with the idea that her wish for Kamijou to be healed was a selfish one, it ultimately bears out that it wasn't: Her wish was genuinely and completely selfless, and if circumstances had been different, she wouldn't have gone crazy over Hitomi confessing to Kamijou. She basically says at the end, during Kamijou's concert, that in the end she's okay with knowing that he's all right, and that she thinks Hitomi will be good for him.

Hitomi confessing to Kamijou isn't what drives her over the edge, what drives her over the edge is feeling like she's been deceived into sacrificing her life, and is now unworthy of anything except protecting a world which she increasingly viewed as cruel and capricious.


...

Look, I have a lot of Sayaka feels, okay.
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Old 2014-05-03, 18:13   Link #369
Triple_R
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I don't know how anybody can consider Sayaka "backstabbing, stalkery, or trecherous". I haven't watched Kamen Rider Gaim, so I can't comment much on that, but if that's a fair description of this Micchy character, then he's not much like Sayaka. Sayaka was fiercely loyal, both to Kyousuke, and also to the ideals held up by her mentor Mami.

You can't backstab or be trecherous to someone you were never friendly/allied with in the first place. So whatever someone thinks of Sayaka's conflicts with Homura and Kyouko, "backstab" and "trecherous" don't describe them at all.

Sayaka did snap at Madoka once, but it was an argument between friends in a peaceful location and it didn't directly endanger Madoka at all. And honestly, I think it was perfectly understandable that Sayaka snapped at Madoka when she did - If I was doing a difficult job that somebody else was seemingly unwilling to do, I also wouldn't take kindly to that person telling me how to do my job. Now, I get that Madoka was just deeply and sincerely concerned, but it's still easy to see how her comments could come across as obnoxious to Sayaka.

As for stalkery, she didn't stalk anybody. Kyousuke always seemed reasonably welcoming of her presence. He apologized for the one time he did snap at her.


Anyway, D Murphy, it's great to see another Sayaka fan here! You made some good points on her.
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Old 2014-05-04, 04:41   Link #370
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It's partly because Gaim is another series written by Gen Urobuchi, and so there's a tendency to try to 'match up' characters with each other, whether it really makes sense or not.

It's weird, in general people tend to be really harsh about Sayaka, despite the fact that I think her worst crime is maybe being naive.

I mean, yes, she snaps at Madoka and tries to pressure her into becoming a magical girl at one point, and that's a genuinely painful moment that Madoka didn't deserve, but she's not in her right mind at that point. She's labouring under all these different stresses and strains that have been placed on her, her Soul Gem is darkening (and we don't know if that has a psychological effect or not, but it very well could), and her making a mistake and saying things she doesn't really mean is par for the course.
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Old 2014-05-04, 06:17   Link #371
Triple_R
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I think that Sayaka taking a fair bit of heat is largely a side-effect of Homura's popularity.

Of the other four main cast members, Sayaka is the one that Homura is most frequently and somewhat personally at odds with (at least in the original anime - Rebellion arguably changes that given a certain action scene )

If you really love Character A, and Character B often butts heads with Character A, it's easy to default to disliking Character B. Now I can come up with good reasons and rationals for both sides of the Homura/Sayaka conflict, but it does take some time to think/work through.


For what it's worth, you should know that Sayaka does have some very strong supporters here on AS. In addition to myself, there's also Coldlight, Sayaka Rei, SkullFaerie, silvercover, spirits having flown, Kirito, and probably some more besides (most Kyouko fans also like Sayaka for obvious reasons).

Also, last I checked, I think Sayaka is the most avatar'ed PMMM character here on Anime Suki. Once Love Live! Season 2 is over, I'll probably be going back to a Sayaka avatar and/or sig.
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Old 2014-05-04, 07:44   Link #372
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no mention of me, triple R?

indeed you got it right, its due to sayaka having conflicts with homura. also, some kyouko fans are also mad at her since she essentially got kyouko killed as well as refusing kyouko's feelings (before the movie of course).
they probably got over it now thanks to the movie, actually browsing the tv tropes page they mention that sayaka has gained more fans due after the movie.

the most annoying thing I find is people blaming sayaka for stuff that homura is equally guilty of.
its quite ironic to note, that sayaka and homura are probably the most similar to each other compared to the other girls, major difference only stems from homura being lonely and clinging to only madoka while sayaka got other people around her.
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Old 2014-05-04, 08:16   Link #373
Triple_R
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no mention of me, triple R?
lol, sorry. I'll edit my previous post to put you on the list as well.


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its quite ironic to note, that sayaka and homura are probably the most similar to each other compared to the other girls, major difference only stems from homura being lonely and clinging to only madoka while sayaka got other people around her.
I agree. They're both motivated to a great degree by fondness for one particular person, and passionate loyalty to that person.
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Old 2014-05-04, 08:25   Link #374
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if they're love interest got switched, they'd probably react in close to the same manner.

as we can already see how far sayaka pushed herself to the brink of dying, homura has also shown unselfishness(since selfless... doesnt really fit her well ).
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Old 2014-05-04, 08:48   Link #375
Triple_R
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if they're love interest got switched, they'd probably react in close to the same manner.
Homura would take up violin-playing. Or she'd try to learn to play a different but related instrument (like the piano) and try to start a classical music duo/band with Kyousuke. Madoka Magica becomes White Album 3.

Sayaka, interestingly, would not change much at all. She's already pretty protective of Madoka. Some later scenes would change though. Madoka's disagreements with Sayaka would have been devastating to Sayaka. The 2nd half of PMMM would have been like the yuri version of a Key route.
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Old 2014-05-04, 08:54   Link #376
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It's easy to see both Homura and Sayaka's side of things (and I like both characters, so), because Homura has knowledge that Sayaka doesn't, including how people react to finding out all the different revelations (which is probably why Homura never tells Mami, who's probably most likely to believe her, about magical girls becoming witches/Kyubey being literally worse than Satan. She's well aware that when Mami has found out in the past, it's driven her over the edge).

If they swapped love interests, I could see Homura doing a lot of pining after Kyousuke from afar. That's essentially what she does with Madoka, a lot of the time.
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Old 2014-05-05, 02:00   Link #377
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So Sayaka is simply a flawed heroine who made a huge mistake and payed for it with her life.
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Old 2014-05-05, 02:17   Link #378
Triple_R
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So Sayaka is simply a flawed heroine who made a huge mistake and payed for it with her life.
I don't think it was a huge mistake. And I don't think that Sayaka considers it that either. Re-watch Sayaka's scene in Episode 12 - I think that makes it clear that she really doesn't regret her wish, regardless of what it cost her. That's not to say there isn't still a tragic element here - There is - But the tragic element is not the wish itself. Rather, it's how quickly Sayaka flamed out for various reasons, going back to how she is a flawed heroine (but flawed in a very "normal person" way, rather than in a contrived Achilles Heel way, imo).

The wish itself was in fact a success for the world in general, giving it back an excellent musician, which I think Sayaka eventually concluded was enough, even if she would have preferred a romance for herself on top of it.
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Old 2014-05-05, 06:45   Link #379
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It doesn't help that throughout the series, Sayaka is in contest against a force much greater than herself, and doesn't really know it. Kyubey wants her to fail and become a witch, and it's in his interests that it happens as quickly as possible, and before Walpurgisnacht arrives.
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Old 2014-05-05, 11:04   Link #380
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the only thing that was wrong was the world rather than sayaka.

her wish and desires were like as good as you can get, its only due to the whole world working together to push her up the wall that got her over the edge.

if you could minus even just one of those, like hitomi taking kyousuke, the reveal of the witches existence, or learning that people dont care about others (remember that scene in the train of 2 guys talking about playing around with the feelings of a girl to get what they want), sayaka probably would have lasted much longer. its only cause everything seemed to be going against her that pushed her to the limits.

hell, it would have been sad but pretty much as good as an ending for her if sayaka had died protecting people from witches and familiars... if there wasnt the witchifying aspect. sayaka would have gone down as what she wanted: "a hero of justice".
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