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Old 2012-07-20, 10:35   Link #22561
Mr. DJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Typical straw man. No, the problem is not that weapons are sold illegaly, the problem is that firearms are mas produced to be sold at large (for a huge profit I might add).
Hardly, but whatever. Columbine didn't stop anyone, Virginia Tech either times...no public shooting ever did or will. It doesn't happen enough on a large enough scale to enforce any real change w/out Amendment 2 toters raising a huge stink.

If someone wants something bad enough, they will find a way to get it.

The guy even told the police he had explosives in his apartment...mother of god...
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:07   Link #22562
Vexx
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Way too many instances of this end up being, "yeah, we knew he was bonkers and had the means, but our hands were tied (we were too lazy/underfunded/idiotic) to actually *do* anything.
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:12   Link #22563
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
That would apply to suicide cases but this appears to be a fully planned attack.
Any suicide (even failed ones) attempt requires the same simple planning skills this guy exhibits.

Quote:
The 911 hijackings were presumably carried out with hand knives. The death toll of planned attacks is pretty much limited to what the imagination (or twisted mind more likely) can come up with.
That is only because the USA did not enforce the use of reinforced cockpit doors and safe protocols, airplane kidnappings had happened for decades in other countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Or the letter was sent as part of an automated process that nobody completely thought through and they don't actually care.
I would buy that argument if the war on terror was not in full swing.
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:15   Link #22564
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
I will have to disagree with that notion. People with suicidal tendencies lack drive, they will not create their own explosives or poisons. You can argue that you can still kill 50 people without the use of assault weapons, but using a knife or a vehicle to murder people will not yield such a high death toll. Assault weapons are easy, they require little skill and you only need to be right in front of a large group of people to do such horrific act, the only reason he only killed 50 is because said people lack drive, once they discharge their anger they only hope for a cop to blow their brains.

BTW, I don't think a semi-automatic weapon should be sold to people, anything beyond hunting rifles is a sure kill weapon in the hands of a derp.
Hunting rifles *are* semi-automatic weapons. Many people less familiar with guns think "semi-automatic" means something it doesn't. Semi-automatic simply means the next round is loaded using the energy from the last round. The trigger must be pulled for each shot.

Also, review the cases of people using automobiles as weapons of mass kills (driving through a market) and cases of a guy moving fast with a large knife through a crowd.

Look, I want to know why we in the US seem so unwilling to develop effective laws and techniques for dealing with these selfish bastards. But, unlike these monsters (or most people arguing for or against), I'd prefer to use reason and science instead of emotion to figure it out.
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:19   Link #22565
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Way too many instances of this end up being, "yeah, we knew he was bonkers and had the means, but our hands were tied (we were too lazy/underfunded/idiotic) to actually *do* anything.
Uh. I'll make a parallel between your comment and Merah's case. He was on a watchlist because he was a delinquent tied to Islamists and traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan. He went and killed people, including children. It treatise raised a stink.

But how many people are in those lists? What can we prove they've done?
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:23   Link #22566
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Any suicide (even failed ones) attempt requires the same simple planning skills this guy exhibits.
He had multiple high powered weapons. He had a tear gas bomb. He had explosives and more weapons in his car and, apparently, apartment. He wore a bulletproof vest, goggles, and a riot helmet. He managed to get into the theatre from the emergency exit. He managed to do all of this without raising any alarms (either electronic or from suspicious onlookers).

How is this "simple planning", or the same level of planning as getting a knife and slitting your wrist/throat, or getting some rope and hanging yourself?
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:25   Link #22567
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Only a few miles away from Columbine. The Denver area seems to have really bad luck with that type of nutcases.
Actually no.
Aurora is nearly 30 miles from Littleton Co.
Aurora is a city and county just outside Denver metro (on the eastside) while Columbine is in Jefferson County on the South West side of Denver.
They are two entirely different areas in just about every way you can imagine.

Aurora is a drug infested (and I don't mean pot), gangland where problems with illegal weapons have gone back for years.

Largest Mass Drug Arrest In Colorado History: 500 Officers Arrest 80 Suspects, 4 Cocaine Drug Rings Busted (PHOTOS)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1266425.html

So, this shooting while tragic, is not surprising like Columbine was due to where it happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
The sad thing is that even after such an horrific act the average uSA citizen will NOT understand how wrong is to allow to sell assault weapons to people at large.
Yeah because a total gun ban has worked so great for Mexico right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Let me tell you what I know. Unlike alcohol/sinthetic drugs, mass production of weapons or ammunition requires of expensive sophisticated machinery. The USA goverment is keeping tabs of said machinery (since obviously the weapon manufacturers do not want someone to start an illegal weapon plant that sells the same weapons at cheaper prices), how do I know that? A cousin some years ago asked me to get him one of those machines for his factory, they sell them at ebay *facepalm* at very low prices since the manufacturing sector in the USA is in the slumps. Some time later my cousin received a letter from the USA goverment asking him to register in *blah* *blah* *blah* because he had a machine that could be used to produce weapons. The nerve, we are not USA citizens so the USA goverment can stuff it where the sun never shines. But I bet they send an spy to check once in a while to check my cousin factory.

Therefore if the USA factories that mass produce weapons and ammunition for public consumption shut down, it would not be easy to create an illegal traffic since said machines CANNOT be easly moved and can be easily tracked down (and destroyed if need be).
You don't know what you are talking about.
I worked in the gun industry as a gunsmith for 5 years, and still have many friends in the biz.
Let's just say that with a few machine tools that are easily obtainable, you could mass produce simple military grade weapons such as AK-47s in very short order.
Hell, there are even books on how to do it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Way too many instances of this end up being, "yeah, we knew he was bonkers and had the means, but our hands were tied (we were too lazy/underfunded/idiotic) to actually *do* anything.
This more than anything is what the problem is with these nutjobs over and over again.
The police/teachers/co-workers/spouses/whoever, don't take the threats of these people seriously and then tragedy strikes.
Charles Whitman told his family and friends he was going to kill people in Texas, and he did it.
You'd think after that event people would have started taking these disturbed individuals seriously and tried to get them help before they committed their atrocities.



Sadly, this is not a new problem.
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:25   Link #22568
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Look, I want to know why we in the US seem so unwilling to develop effective laws and techniques for dealing with these selfish bastards.
The answer is brutally simple, there is no profit in doing so, be it monetary of political.

BTW, I do not think they are selfish bastards, they are suicidal people that hate the society that turned them into nut jobs and said society happens to sell them firearms at the corner store; if japan did the same they would have these kind of news (even with their superior police system) instead of the knife stabbings we read in the news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Yeah because a total gun ban has worked so great for Mexico right?
If Japan had a land frontier with the USA the same size we have, their total gun ban would be just as inefective :-p


Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
How is this "simple planning", or the same level of planning as getting a knife and slitting your wrist/throat, or getting some rope and hanging yourself?
1. Buy weapons (firearms and gas bomb), defensive gear (vest, googles and riot helmet) and porn magazine, use credit card (you wont be here to pay for it)
2. Kid exit door (the ones in the theater I go can be open with enough force, they are only meant to prevent people entering thru them without being noticed).
3. Open fire.

I fail to see how this is some kind of genius plan.
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:30   Link #22569
GundamFan0083
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Knives can be just as deadly.

Japanese man kills seven in Tokyo stabbing rampage
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/08/japan

A determined madman is a very dangerous thing.
We need to find a way to stop them BEFORE they do what they do.
All the gun-control, knife-control, poison-control...hell people-control...in the world will not stop a determined wackjob once he starts.
That is why it is so important to get to the person when they're talking or threatening to do these things, and stop them at that point.
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:37   Link #22570
Ithekro
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Legal fees in such cases much make the mint for law firms and the nearly free labor from the criminals must bring in quite the profit to warrent not fixing our problems.
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Old 2012-07-20, 11:38   Link #22571
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Knives can be just as deadly.
7 is nowhere near of 50 and I bet that if that japanese guy had had access to firearms he would no doubt have killed a lot more people, jeez, I can think of a simple KISS plan to kill MILLIONS for the cheap using half my brain, these peoples are mere nutjobs, not evil masterminds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Let's just say that with a few machine tools that are easily obtainable, you could mass produce simple military grade weapons such as AK-47s in very short order.
I do need your input on this if you may. How many ak47 or rounds of ammunition a month can YOU produce with said "few machines tools"? What price would this items have comparing them with actual market prices?

Last edited by mangamuscle; 2012-07-20 at 12:01.
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Old 2012-07-20, 12:19   Link #22572
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
7 is nowhere near of 50 and I bet that if that japanese guy had had access to firearms he would no doubt have killed a lot more people, jeez, I can think of a simple KISS plan to kill MILLIONS for the cheap using half my brain, these peoples are mere nutjobs, not evil masterminds.
50?
There were only 10 killed in Aurora (originally reports were 12-14, now the local news is reporting 10).
Last time I checked, 7 is really close to 10.

Quote:
I do need your input on this if you may. How many ak47 or rounds of ammunition a month can YOU produce with said "few machines tools"?
If you commit to just one caliber for it, say .223 (the "hunting cartidge verson of the 5.56x45mm), then 100-500 cartridges per day is easy with a reloading machine, flue furnace, molds, and grinders [not going to get technical here for obvious reasons, I don't want a knock on my door from DHS].
Copper, brass, and primer material are plentiful and not difficult to make.
Smokeless powder is also easy to produce (though dangerous) using fertilizers [mostly dried and distilled chicken feces for the nitrates].
I will not post anywhere the actual formula, so don't ask as it can be construed as being intent to commit an illegal act.

Therefore, special machinery isn't needed to make weapons or ammunition.
The reason I know all of this is because during the 1990s the BATF was finding SKS and AR rifles without serial numbers here in CO.
They were asking FFL holders about it and warning us to turn said weapons and ammo over to them if they came into our shops.
The reason these weapons had no serial numbers (anywhere, not even on the barrels) was because someone was manufacturing them illegally.
And locally made ammo can still be gotten for a very reasonable price, if you know the right people.
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Old 2012-07-20, 12:21   Link #22573
JC...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
That's horrible. My condolences to those who died or were injured during the shooting.

Hopefully, no idiot will try to claim this was some marketing ploy get people to see the movie.
Publicity stunt for gun control?
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Old 2012-07-20, 12:38   Link #22574
Endless Soul
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Well, as it turns out, an internet friend of mine from another forum had a niece who happened to be at the scene of the shooting. She is counted as one of the dead.

My very sincere condolences to those who lost their loved ones.

Endless "..." Soul
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Old 2012-07-20, 12:44   Link #22575
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
50? ... Last time I checked, 7 is really close to 10.
My bet is the number will dramatically climb by the end of the week.

Quote:
Therefore, special machinery isn't needed to make weapons or ammunition.
You fail at reading and comprehension. I never stated special machinery was need for weapon or ammunition creatin, I said it was required for MASS production. The numbers you give me of ammunition creating are interesting, but nowhere what organized crime or small (even tiny) armies consume. You failed to disclose a number of ak47 rifles you might produce over a month, but again it is imposible for you to compete with mass production,which requires no real skills (obviously you are very skilled), you only need a monkey to open the door, insert unfinished piece, close the door, punch button, go to next machine, continue for eight hours (at least, you can have three shifts a day) and you will have thousands of firearms at the end of the month. Of course you need a technician to progtam said machines, he only needs to get measurements of the pieces to be created and once the program is finished, he is really no longer needed.
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Old 2012-07-20, 12:52   Link #22576
GundamFan0083
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I've been looking all morning to see what kinds of guns this nutcase used.

I have finally found them:

Authorities recovered four guns -- a rifle similar to an AR-15, a shotgun and two Glock handguns, a senior official with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms familiar with the investigation told CNN

Just by looking at that and knowing this shooting was happening in a smoke filled, dark room (the theater), I can say that the weapon that probably killed the most people was the shotgun.
It fires a spray and has the most chance of hitting.
The AR would be all but useless under those conditions.
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Old 2012-07-20, 12:56   Link #22577
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
My bet is the number will dramatically climb by the end of the week.
I sincerely hope you are wrong.

Quote:
You fail at reading and comprehension. I never stated special machinery was need for weapon or ammunition creatin, I said it was required for MASS production. The numbers you give me of ammunition creating are interesting, but nowhere what organized crime or small (even tiny) armies consume. You failed to disclose a number of ak47 rifles you might produce over a month, but again it is imposible for you to compete with mass production,which requires no real skills (obviously you are very skilled), you only need a monkey to open the door, insert unfinished piece, close the door, punch button, go to next machine, continue for eight hours (at least, you can have three shifts a day) and you will have thousands of firearms at the end of the month. Of course you need a technician to progtam said machines, he only needs to get measurements of the pieces to be created and once the program is finished, he is really no longer needed.
You asked for ammunition numbers.
For AKs, it depends on whether we are talking about the sheetmetal receiver type or milled receiver type.
The sheetmetal types can be made a 2-4 per month depending on what kinds of machines used.
If a CNC machine is available, then that number could be tripled.
However, I think it would be much easier for criminals to obtain their weapons from the government (like they do here in the US and they do in Mexico) through corrupt politicians, military personnel, and the police.
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Old 2012-07-20, 13:03   Link #22578
GundamFan0083
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Update from Channel 9 news Colorado

Chief Dan Oats (Aurora police) said only one Glock pistol was used the other was left behind in the car.
He also said that only one AR round injured one person in an adjoining theater, and while they do not have any ballistics yet, the majority of injuries are from shotgun pellets. They do not know how many rounds he fired from his Remington 870 shotgun, but they suspect it was many.

The new official numbers are now, 10 dead on scene, 2 dead in the hospital, and 71 injured.
Shotguns are what Eric Harris and Dylan Kleebold used at Columbine, they seem to be the most consistant weapon of choice for these nutjobs.
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Old 2012-07-20, 13:04   Link #22579
Mr. DJ
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a nutjob that was a neuroscience major o_O
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Old 2012-07-20, 13:10   Link #22580
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
My bet is the number will dramatically climb by the end of the week.
Surely an educated guess right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Typical straw man. No, the problem is not that weapons are sold illegaly, the problem is that firearms are mas produced to be sold at large (for a huge profit I might add).
The problem is that Pandora's box has been opened a long time ago. Gun Control is never going to work unless you can invent a magical device that can track down every single gun in the country, and then you'd have to invent the same thing for knifes, then fertilizers, then bows, then sharp pointy objects, then blunt objects.

Does gun make it easier to kill people? yes. Will banning them fix the problem? not in your wildest dreams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Shotguns are what Eric Harris and Dylan Kleebold used at Columbine, they seem to be the most consistant weapon of choice for these nutjobs.
'cause they tend not to have the training to effectively use precision weapons, thus shotguns becomes the weapon of choice.
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