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Old 2005-12-29, 11:22   Link #41
Owaranai Destiny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Call me whatever you like, but to suggest GSD failed because Kira showed up is clearly illogical to me.

Try this, then; would GSD be a better show if Kira was omitted? Would all the bad things somehow cease to be, even though they are not linked to his re-appearance?

And to be honest, my comments were not directed specifically at you, but at the many others who clearly claim it was Kira who single handedly ruined GSD.
No one knows. would GSD be a worse show if Kira was omitted? I could throw that question back, and I don't think either of use could have answered that totally. You did say the way his appearance was handled, and I stopped at that as well. Just so to tell you, many people felt that he could or even should reappear, just not play that important of a role.

No offense intended, and no harm done. I just hate being musunderstood by people. If I offended you, simple: I apologize. Fair enough?
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Old 2005-12-29, 11:28   Link #42
1.0.7.
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i totally agree with VCV..
kira didn't druin GSD, it was the way he was integrated to it.. that and a whole list of other things.
but for me, the worst thing was, as WD made in a thread some time ago before the crash, that they actually decided to extend the entire thing into a 50 episode series..which wasn't the initial plan.
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Old 2005-12-29, 12:02   Link #43
Sety
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Quote:
i totally agree with VCV..
kira didn't druin GSD, it was the way he was integrated to it..
Its technically the same thing as Kira ruining GSD......the fact he was brought in AND badly integrated which is what happened.

Personally I actually enjoyed his appearance a rather cool re-appearance.....it wasn't till around the Cagalli's wedding ep I actually realized that Kira was going to make the show suck by stealing the spotlight and doing nothing and killing all the new cast.
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Old 2005-12-29, 12:40   Link #44
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Well, if you want personal opinions...

Why Kira (and Lacus) ruin(s) the series for me:
To me, Kira and Lacus don't represent humanity, but they represent this unrealistic, un-attainable vision "higher deity" or whatever... Kira's power is un-attainable, and Lacus's influence is unrealistic. And then they have their followers, who can basically be summed up as the rest of the Three Ships Alliance. It is their ideals that dominate the series (and I say this because they come out on top in both SEED and GSD), as well as the people of the Cosmic Era (refer to Final Plus and Lacus's influence).

Because their ideals are what dominates the outcome of the series, they are the black and white "right."

I hate the idea/concept of a black and white ideal of right, especially in a war anime. How... amateur. o_O

You can argue that the Earth Alliance and ZAFT was supposed to be the Black and White parts, and the Archangel was the gray, but I think it was made obvious that both the EA and ZAFT both were "wrong" thus there is a black and white right of EA/ZAFT v. TSA.

Because of Kira's un-attainable power by him conveniently being the ultimate coordinator, we basically have ueber-battle god dude thing.

And since Lacus has unrealistic influential skills, we have a voice that people will listen to without fail. This has been proven by Meer's effectiveness and Lacus's words in Final Plus.

And since Lacus is a foil character of Fllay, situations just have to be under her control and things must turn out in her ultimate favor because Fllay failed in those areas.

I hate characters like those. To me, they are walking plot devices to patch up holes. And having two of them as the main character just really ruins the environment of the series for me because you know it'll turn out with them on top, and well, hey it did. ~_~

What I got from their characters was, Kira and Lacus's way or the highway, kids.

And yes, that "ruins" the series for me. As an aspiring writer, I will make sure to keep them in mind when I want a reminder of what not to do with characters...
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Old 2005-12-29, 13:28   Link #45
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kodachrome, i think i agree with every single thing you just said down to the letter even the wording.
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Old 2005-12-29, 14:00   Link #46
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kodachrome, I couldn't agree even more than I actually do.
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Old 2005-12-29, 14:37   Link #47
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Great post, kodachrome; I agree with every bit of it.
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Old 2005-12-29, 16:30   Link #48
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kodachrome i agree with you fully.
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Old 2005-12-29, 16:47   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
the makers getting too involved in doing a propaganda for their own extremist political views instead of making an enjoyable series. And random writings that they even forget what they have written before and have to rely on the side story manga to patch up the holes (and I still yet to see anything to patch up the "it's all just an experiment" line from Neo at the start of the series)

But then apparently it can get BANDAI enough money for a third series.
How bout Djbril telling Neo, "Afterall you were created for this [greater]purpose..." What purpose? Why the hell did they even save him in the first place?? And before you say because he can control MA extremities well remember he only use EXASS at the beginning...And didn't use another MA all series and sucked in all MS's (except//.hackatsuki)...Where are the Neo clones they needed to pilot more MA's?? Ah, dammit I think I just gave them an idea for SEED 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
And since Lacus is a foil character of Fllay, situations just have to be under her control and things must turn out in her ultimate favor because Fllay failed in those areas.

And yes, that "ruins" the series for me. As an aspiring writer, I will make sure to keep them in mind when I want a reminder of what not to do with characters...
Not bad at all...I too am a writer and only stories told for developing toddlers would i ever make characters act this way...
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Old 2005-12-29, 17:20   Link #50
Shinji103
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kodachrome, that was an awesome post.
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Old 2005-12-29, 17:58   Link #51
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[QUOTE=wingdarkness]How bout Djbril telling Neo, "Afterall you were created for this [greater]purpose..." What purpose? Why the hell did they even save him in the first place?? And before you say because he can control MA extremities well remember he only use EXASS at the beginning...And didn't use another MA all series and sucked in all MS's (except//.hackatsuki)...Where are the Neo clones they needed to pilot more MA's?? Ah, dammit I think I just gave them an idea for SEED 3

Even that idea could been used to explain how Neo and Mwu are connected in GSD.
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Old 2005-12-29, 19:21   Link #52
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time for my input

@kadomechan. I agree completely with your post. you just stated half my reasons for why i consider destiny to be a failure.

Othe rthings that bithered me greatly were the fact that i still cant understand what the exact theme of this series was. the popular characters win? and i also still dont understand what the writers intentions were in making shinn the main character. To this end i still dont understand what exactly made him the main character other than the advertisements ( a lot of false ones at that)

I get the feeling watching this series that the writers expect the audience to be a bunch of brainless idiots who can only point at the screen and say. "ooh gundam must buy". seriously those kinds of writers have no creativity and need to be fired.

The most important thing that i felt was missing from gsd that was present in GS was DRAMA and INTERACTION. drama in which important people DIE adn others are shown suffering. instead we see unexplained emotions, wierd behavior and instant forgiveness even though it makes no rational sense. kira back in gs even though had freedom and his new god logic still got his ass kicked from thime to time and he still got emotionally scarred. here i get the impression from how the writers portray him in the series that hes the type to belittle people as in if your not with me then get out of my way or ill beat you. those type of characters i hate the most. but i agree with wha tsomeone else said. it snot kira its how he was brought in and portrayed tha tmade me hat e him. which brings me to my final point.....

WHERE THE HELL WAS THE CHARCTER INTERACTION. the only time shinn and cagali spoke was early on and that was drama. the AA crew never even interacted with the minerva crew. hell not even the EA druggies had much interaction. its like they had all these characters and they didnt know what to do with them. imagine if kira was captured by the minerva in 34 instead of being rescued by the AA. how much of a difference in story would it hav emade and for me it would have made the event sin final plus more believable.
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Old 2005-12-29, 19:47   Link #53
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Cajuman i just thought abotu what you posted abotu a bunch of characters.

There is reaction, but it is all pointless... Heck the only improtant Convos come from Neo/Djbril, and anything gilbert says or does in teh latter half of the show. the druggies weren't around so much,and that was only to fight. The dom pilots don't get too much interaction either... i mean, i would have rather seen the doms one the EA side to flesh out thier pilot ranks.
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Old 2005-12-31, 09:54   Link #54
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Saying Squall of FF8 suck is one thing. Saying FF8 suck because of Squall is another.

Most named characters in GSD suck, period. But to claim Kira was the main reason the series failed is entirely groundless. You don't have to like him, but accusations should be just and fair.
Squall is indeed part of the reason why FF8 suck. And FFX-2's Yuna is part of the reason why FFX-2 suck. Kira, Squall, Yuna, they are all fictional characters, to say they have nothing to do with how the writers present them is ridiculous. They don't exist independently of the writers, they are non-existence without the writers present them with their writings.
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Old 2005-12-31, 10:36   Link #55
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Now all we need is demongod to agree with us

Anyway the introduction of AA crew stuff it up, shouldve just let it stayed the way it started with only shinn n athrun has the main protagonists. Shinn had no character buildup, rey had a more buildup then hiim imo.
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Old 2005-12-31, 10:40   Link #56
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people are saying kira is to be blame for GSD? but by the time kira had an Ep almost all to himself. GSD was already crappy.. when was that? Ep 13-14 if i remember right after that it took up till Ep 23 for him to come back.. i remember back around that time.. people were pissed how things were.. how easy Zaft would win the battles against EA..now i ask myself.. isnt that one of things kira haters hate. is him being untouchable/godly ? if thats so..what would shinn be? gods of gods?.taking on 30 MS + the new duggies + Neo and coming back unharm .. after i saw that + the power ranger transformation(impulse) i knew it would be some kind of super robot show and that was b4 kira show up in Ep 23 when he owned almost everyone in the battlefield.... i almost forgot to name mass production of huge black grunts =Destroy. who at a time would seem untouchable

now going back to the first 12 Ep..
i can say the first two episodes were good for a start.. not great cuz it was already the same crap from Seed.. stealing the mobile suits crap ..i could see who was the main character for the first two Ep..and gave the new main character a try.. but the dude wouldnt Stop bitching! well getting back. after the first two Ep cagalli + Asuran started taking main role rather than shinn + the new crew.. by that time i was going around the gundam forums asking if shinn was really the main character or was it asuran.. who seem to be it.. well i wouldnt blame Fukuda.. all shinn would do would be b!tch and no character development was giving to him.. not untill Ep 21 was it? that time he and stellar were on that Cave? cough asuran/cagalli cough.. GSD was cearly a Remake of GS + U.C.. there was seiously no hope for originality.. specialy for those who want originality when thats almost impossible now on days.. i just think is stupid to blame lacus/kira for the huge disappointment GSD was to some people.. who i find funny ..that even thought they hate almost every GSD Ep they would still See the extra Ep 12/25/05

i dont think we should blame the characters or even Fukuda for the disappointment GSD was ..no one is perfect
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Old 2005-12-31, 11:17   Link #57
shaolo
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i dont think we should blame the characters or even Fukuda for the disappointment GSD was ..no one is perfect[/QUOTE]


Yes no one is perfect ,but Fukuda mess up GSD and some of the characters was used as tool and some were cannon fodder.
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Old 2005-12-31, 12:14   Link #58
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Um...

I'm going to post this on a reply I made back in the old days of Animesuki before the hackers came out to play...it's about the "Why Shinn was nerfed as a main character?" thread...it was a rant that would say all I have to say about GSD (its failures) and then some. Oh, the quotes are by vio555...where art thou vio? (the link he indicated would probably be lost by now...)


Spoiler:



*Pulls out anti-flame ofuda*

Please don't hurt me...
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Old 2005-12-31, 12:22   Link #59
Demongod86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
Well, if you want personal opinions...

Why Kira (and Lacus) ruin(s) the series for me:
To me, Kira and Lacus don't represent humanity, but they represent this unrealistic, un-attainable vision "higher deity" or whatever... Kira's power is un-attainable, and Lacus's influence is unrealistic. And then they have their followers, who can basically be summed up as the rest of the Three Ships Alliance. It is their ideals that dominate the series (and I say this because they come out on top in both SEED and GSD), as well as the people of the Cosmic Era (refer to Final Plus and Lacus's influence).

Because their ideals are what dominates the outcome of the series, they are the black and white "right."

I hate the idea/concept of a black and white ideal of right, especially in a war anime. How... amateur. o_O

You can argue that the Earth Alliance and ZAFT was supposed to be the Black and White parts, and the Archangel was the gray, but I think it was made obvious that both the EA and ZAFT both were "wrong" thus there is a black and white right of EA/ZAFT v. TSA.

Because of Kira's un-attainable power by him conveniently being the ultimate coordinator, we basically have ueber-battle god dude thing.

And since Lacus has unrealistic influential skills, we have a voice that people will listen to without fail. This has been proven by Meer's effectiveness and Lacus's words in Final Plus.

And since Lacus is a foil character of Fllay, situations just have to be under her control and things must turn out in her ultimate favor because Fllay failed in those areas.

I hate characters like those. To me, they are walking plot devices to patch up holes. And having two of them as the main character just really ruins the environment of the series for me because you know it'll turn out with them on top, and well, hey it did. ~_~

What I got from their characters was, Kira and Lacus's way or the highway, kids.

And yes, that "ruins" the series for me. As an aspiring writer, I will make sure to keep them in mind when I want a reminder of what not to do with characters...
Funny because later in my own original work I plan to have a character that people will just SCREAM "LACUSU!!!!!" at if they have seen GS/GSD and are smart enough to make the connection. Not as a main, for sure. And definitely not powerful enough to simply lull an entire nation with her words.

However, you have to realize that Lacus's influence is just that...INFLUENCE...if you want an example of a Lacus type of person, loved by all, beautiful, influential, pristine, kind, etc... then here is one: princess Diana. Sadly, tunnel+car+paparazzi+bad driver>princess Diana. But Kira doesn't suck at driving, and if Lacus ever died in a car accident like that...also, Mia's influence was complimenting Durandaru Gichou. Think of Durandall as a sort of Bill Clinton-like guy, minus playing all the wrong holes. He was a politician that was basically loved by the commonwealth people. Lacus was ALSO held in high esteem. Up to this point, she was the daughter of the leader, and a songstress that was NOT oversexed and didn't sing corny songs. (Gee...the concept is almost impossible to conceive in our day and age here in the US of A). Her reputation as a moderate young politician was well-earned, as was her influence.

Kira being unrealistic? I think he was being an ideal big brother, gentle guy and all, that doesn't really want to hurt people, but wants to help his friends and family out, and is an all-around genuinely good guy. In fact, if I ha to pick any anime character to relate my best friend to, it actually WOULD be Kira. Kira is perhaps somewhat exaggerated in some of his traits, like the rapid pace at which he can learn a mobile suit, but that's what makes him exemplary. His brain, and gentle heart. I'd say Kira has very realistic traits, but perhaps some of them are taken to an unrealistic extent. But in order to be willing to believe a story, we must give some leeway for the writers to do something extraordinary with the characters.

Overall, it was the reused scenes and actually Shinn that ruined it for me, the reason being the utter FAILURE of a character he was. Fukuda had MULTIPLE opportunities to write Shinn's scenes out better, and to have Shinn think about Athrun's words more. Shinn NEVER did until the VERY end when it finally penetrated Fukuda's thick skull to actually have Shinn just STOP for a second, detach himself from the situation, from his angst-on-two-legs self, and think about things in the bigger picture. In fact, I think that in episode 34, if Shinn actually felt he LOST that fight, that he could have become a much bigger character. Because the way GSD went, Shinn won a battle nobody else possibly could have--and lost the war for his character to become anything decent.

Overall, I think the writing for Kira and Lacus was bang on. They stayed consistent to their idealistic characters with the power to change the world (and went and did it). It's just that Fukuda screwed up with everyone else. Durandall went from being a well-meaning guy to "Athrun isn't being my pawn, let's kill him. DIE, LACUS CLYNE!!!" in episode 36, which was a real "WTF?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" for me, and then he's somehow magically behind EVERYTHING, from the Junius 7 drop, to sending out terrorists against Lacus Clyne, to staging the armory 1 heist, to knowing Jibril has Requiem and letting him fire that shit on the PLANTs for more public support.

Overall, I just think that the writers of GSD wrote themselves into a hole. Because they failed to have Shinn change and tempted people with Kira, they split the fandom, had people wanting Kira Kira Kira, so they just said "screw the new cast" and essentially trashed them. A FAR more INTERESTING ending would have been for Lacus and Durandall not to actually come to all of these huge blows and have Durandall turn to Darth Gichou with his two deathstars, but to invite Lacus Clyne to a conference and talk out a plan that has compromises from both of the idealists--Durandall's belief that humanity would be much happier with a system that would organize them, and Lacus's belief that humans should just be free to do whatever the hell they want.

I mean considering that Durandall's system had in mind to structure all of humanity, perhaps a Destiny+Lacus plan would have people be free to do what they wished to do, but strongly suggested based on their genetics what to do. The funny thing is that both of my grandfathers were engineers, and my dad was also an engineer in Russia. And now guess what? I'm majoring in Information and Systems ENGINEERING. So if I had to look at myself, I could say that I'm proof that Durandall's Destiny Plan CAN work to a slight extent.

I just think that the writers had great ideas, but COMPLETELY fucked up in the presentation. I really wouldn't put the blame on Kira and Lacus. They stayed true to their characters, and though a bit godly, I happened to appreciate them far more than the unthinking Shinn or Darth Gichou.

I'm not a fan of flat characters. Why do you think I liked Mia so much?
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Old 2005-12-31, 12:54   Link #60
thedonkiluminati
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Those who wrote the story are to blame. If a character sucks, they suck because of their writing. That simple, don't see how there can be any argument there.
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