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Old 2012-07-20, 22:21   Link #29741
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Was such a recorder ever mentioned in EP5, aside from when Erika suggested it? Because if not, then it violates Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
It was mentioned somewhere in episode 4 or episode 5 that Kinzo likes to play around with a voice recorder if I recall correctly


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Hell, tell everybody she was on the phone with Kinzo, who just so happens to have left the island in secret and can't get back because of the storm! But Natsuhi isn't smart enough for that.

It would kind of screw everything up though.
Better yet The Ushiromiya's could just find a letter in the study.

Dear, family

Gone Fishin! I took Krauss's Boat!

Love, Grandpa
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Old 2012-07-21, 01:10   Link #29742
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yet again I think you are mixing up what is possible on the gameboard and what is possible within the metaworld.
I'm unsure where you're getting this distinction between a "gameboard victory" and a "metaworld victory", as they are the same thing, in Umineko's workings. You "win" a gameboard by successfully refuting the Illusion of the Witch in the Meta layer. And putting aside whether she can apply old reds to the current game, all she has to do is SUSPECT Kinzo is dead, which is EXTREMELY reasonable based even on just what her perspective would be on the gameboard. Kinzo is already dead, isn't he? is pretty easy peasy, and effectively becomes the red truth if not refuted. And I'm fairly certain it wouldn't have been refuted.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But Natsuhi didn't know that he did.
Yeah she does. She literally says "Of course, my husband had heard about the baby."

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
You are missing the gaps here I think. Battler is not always around.
There is this strange plot of Eva leaving together with Rosa and Genji only to come back again to the dining hall, isn't there? Why did she do that? Why did she feel the need to mark the entrance to the room Genji was in? Why did the same thing happen in Genji's room as in the room Rosa went to after that scene?
And there is a reason to "fool" Battler for somebody on the island, isn't there? That person chose not to reveal him/herself to him, but kept the disguise of Beatrice.
Eva and Erika discussed the door seals beforehand, at dinner, so it's not exactly a coincidence. I'll admit, I very much like the idea of nested conspiracy groups, but Battler simply being an accomplice (to what degree and under what coercions, I could not say) seemed way more apparent.
I mean, he was an accomplice in Dawn, too, and we have WAY less information on whatever the hell was going on there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But in the end who would be most likely in charge of disposing of Kinzo's body?
Man, someone really needs to write a forgery focusing on the misadventures of silently sassy Genji.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Better yet The Ushiromiya's could just find a letter in the study.

Dear, family

Gone Fishin! I took Krauss's Boat!

Love, Grandpa
Oh wow, that is MARVELOUS. And Natsuhi can just claim she lied about meeting him in his study because he'd ordered her to, on pain of massive dishonor.
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Old 2012-07-21, 03:32   Link #29743
Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But is this doctor considering the problem of how many things and places would be smeared by the genetic material of the victim? I think that even doing a thorough clean up this wouldn't be without any risk.
DNA testing in 1986?
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Old 2012-07-21, 03:54   Link #29744
AuraTwilight
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It was invented in 1984, so...
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Old 2012-07-21, 03:58   Link #29745
GuestSpeaker
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DNA testing may or may not have been in widespread use by then, and may or may not have been very reliable. However they could probably identify the presence of blood pretty easily. More importantly that would take a long time, be physically difficult AND require no-one to notice the body you had round and were slowly stripping. Grinding teeth and bones ain't easy, I think they just left them in sky burials.
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Old 2012-07-21, 07:54   Link #29746
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I have no doubt that chicken would eat everything and seagulls? Even more.
After all Sky burial is a very old practice.
But is this doctor considering the problem of how many things and places would be smeared by the genetic material of the victim? I think that even doing a thorough clean up this wouldn't be without any risk.
Well, I don't know if they would use DNA testing in 1986 Japan but the charm of having a while island with some hard to reach bays and a forest is that if you do it in a secluded yet open space and leave no long term visible trace. The best would be doing it by night on the wooden pier of Beato 2's house (it had one, hadn't it?). No one uses it anymore, no one goes there, the blood would just fall in the sea and you can burn the wood and replace it once the birds have finished eating...
And if, after nearly 2 years the police notices that hey, someone replaced the wood, you can always say the previous one was in bad conditions and Kinzo, even through didn't use that house and pier anymore, ordered to keep it in good conditions.
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Old 2012-07-21, 10:17   Link #29747
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It was invented in 1984, so...
Until it was commercialized in 1987, there was only one lab in the world that could perform the process, so there was a huge wait-list.
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Old 2012-07-21, 12:50   Link #29748
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Better yet The Ushiromiya's could just find a letter in the study.

Dear, family

Gone Fishin! I took Krauss's Boat!

Love, Grandpa
Regrettably, this would be foiled if not in his handwriting.

Because apparently nobody on the goddamn island has a freaking typewriter.

Perhaps Natsuhi could cut characters out of the newspaper to string together, then add a "p.s. I've taken up newspaper collage ransom letters as a hobby. You wouldn't put it past me!"
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-07-21, 14:59   Link #29749
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Until it was commercialized in 1987, there was only one lab in the world that could perform the process, so there was a huge wait-list.
That's nothing for Bullshit Mary Sue Detective Furudo Erika~!
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Old 2012-07-21, 20:47   Link #29750
Renall
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"I will now test all blood and other bodily fluids... manually. This level of depravity is possible for Furudo Erika. What do you think, everyone?"

Followed by the sound of a dozen chairs sloooooooowly sliding away from her.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2012-07-21, 22:03   Link #29751
RandomAvatarFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yes, I proposed this a while ago and there was a big debate about it. How does it violate Knox's 8th, though?
When I read Knox's 8th:
Quote:
The detective must not light on any clues are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader. Any writer can make a mystery by telling us that at this point the great Picklock Holes suddenly bent down and picked up from the ground an object which he refused to let his friend see. He whispers 'Ha!' and his face grows grave - all that is illegitimate mystery - making. The skill of the detective author consists in being able to produce his clues and flourish them defiantly in our faces: 'There!' he says, 'what do you make of that?' and we make nothing.
I don't read:
Quote:
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented
but instead:
Quote:
It is forbidden for the detective to withold clues.
Even if the Reader assumed "Oh, Shannon and Kanon both closed the door; Shannon and Kanon are two different people," there should have been some sort of statement along the lines of Erika wondering about the servant who keeps changing clothes/voices/names.

Back on Topic, it is pretty strange that a body would have been kept for over a year for the sake of the murder games. Where would Genji and/or Yasu keep Kinzo? How popular is the "The strange smells in Kinzo's room is the smell of death/ embalming chemicals" theory? It makes sense, but I really can't think of much else. It's probably not important though...
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Old 2012-07-21, 23:37   Link #29752
GuestSpeaker
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Quote:
Where would Genji and/or Yasu keep Kinzo
Firstly I always thought it was Krauss and Natsuhi who kept the body on the island, though Genji may have helped I don't think it was for the murder/games specifically.

Secondly who said it was embalmed? That's not an easy thing to do. On an island like this isn't it more likely that they buried him somewhere in the forest, away from the house? There might even be a crypt in the chapel or something. Likely someone went and dug it up. After all, it is hard to tell how decomposed a burnt body is.

Also the smell of death would be very hard to disguise, and I'm not sure how long it would last. If he was decaying in there though Erika would have found some signs of it when they searched the study in episode 5.

As for Shannon and Kanon closed the door, technically they do everything together. What would have been wrong is if Shannon closed the door at the same time as Kanon pouring the tea.
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Old 2012-07-21, 23:56   Link #29753
Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
When I read Knox's 8th:
Well, I'm not sure Knox should even be applied. Episode 5 isn't a Mystery, right? But an anti-Mystery what with the multiple solutions ending, right?

And by the most accepted interpretation of the truth about the episode, not once did Erika do any investigating of any actual crimes, or do any investigating of fake crimes that would actually light on the fact they were fake. Meanwhile, the truth about ShKanon wasn't even relevant to anything Erika investigated in EP5.

So is the storyteller even under any Knoxical obligation in EP5 to have the detective hint about ShKanon in the first place?
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Old 2012-07-22, 02:34   Link #29754
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, I'm not sure Knox should even be applied. Episode 5 isn't a Mystery, right? But an anti-Mystery what with the multiple solutions ending, right?

And by the most accepted interpretation of the truth about the episode, not once did Erika do any investigating of any actual crimes, or do any investigating of fake crimes that would actually light on the fact they were fake. Meanwhile, the truth about ShKanon wasn't even relevant to anything Erika investigated in EP5.

So is the storyteller even under any Knoxical obligation in EP5 to have the detective hint about ShKanon in the first place?
Putting Shkanon aside, Erika performed a pretty elaborate investigation on the EP5 gameboard. She checked rooms for hiding spaces, gathered alibis, established alibi's herself by way of the seals, and apparently did a bunch of nonsense CSI-style shenanigans to verify some comings and goings.

I dunno ... to me, it sort of read like Erika deigned to solve those first 6/7 murders, but like ... on the claim that she ONLY needed information from the first 10 chapters of a 30 chapter book. So long as they aren't refuted by the GM later, it's possible for there to be multiple truths ... but there certainly at least should have been an "intended" single truth.

Alsooooo, I was looking at the list of Extra TIPS to skim the Anti-Mystery article, and saw this "17 year old Angels" one? From pretty recently, apparently? All I could find on it, and I copy-paste from the tumblr post,
"I-in a nutshell, it’s about Ange and Virgilia running an Umineko BL doujinshi circle together, and getting into fights/debates/brainstorming sessions about what kinds of pairings they want to do (Kinzo/Genji vs Genji/Kinzo, Gohda/Kanon vs Kanon/Gohda, Will/Lion vs Lion/Will, Hideyoshi in general, etc…)—and making the characters act out their scenarios, usually to their horror."
Where is this.
Why arent I reading it right now.
WHY ARENT I READING IT. RIGHT. NOW.
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Old 2012-07-22, 03:25   Link #29755
Drifloon
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Wow, what the heck?

Normally I'd be certain someone just edited the wiki page as a joke, but it seems to be mentioned in quite a few places.

Eh, I'm still saying it's fake, because if not I don't even know what to say.
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Old 2012-07-22, 04:04   Link #29756
battle22
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Will/Lion , wait wait wait wait wait, so this confirms it that Lion is male?
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Old 2012-07-22, 04:37   Link #29757
AuraTwilight
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I've seen this mentioned around in several places. It's real.
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Old 2012-07-22, 04:59   Link #29758
GuestSpeaker
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Quote:
And by the most accepted interpretation of the truth about the episode, not once did Erika do any investigating of any actual crimes, or do any investigating of fake crimes that would actually light on the fact they were fake. Meanwhile, the truth about ShKanon wasn't even relevant to anything Erika investigated in EP5.
I understand the first bit, you are saying she never investigated a real crime, but what about the crimes that would light on being fake bit?


I am pretty sure the manga confirmed lion is female
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Old 2012-07-22, 06:05   Link #29759
battle22
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The voice confirms it kinda too and the whole Genji thinking Kinzo would make the mistake again made me believe Lion was a female but who knows.. XDDD
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Old 2012-07-22, 06:35   Link #29760
GoldenLand
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Just because the "17 year old Angels" TIP has Lion and Will among the BL pairings Ange and Virgilia listed doesn't mean that Lion is confirmed as male. It might be a hint from Ryukishi, but then again, it might not.

Does the manga really confirm Lion as female? I know the person scanlating it at first chose to go with female (and later corrected the scan to be gender neutral), but that wasn't based on anything firm in canon. Was there something in a chapter later on which makes Lion much more likely to be a woman?

The fact Genji worried that Kinzo might make the same mistake again doesn't confirm anything either. Reason being that Kinzo is not the sanest person out there. There would still be a serious risk of him harming Lion. He thought that Moetrice was Bice reincarnated; what's to say that Beatrice's most recent "reincarnation" having a male body would stop him?
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