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Old 2012-07-20, 09:13   Link #101
Dengar
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
that's why it needs to be explained, don't you think? you say everything we know about mangekyou sharingan is mere hearsay, then don't you think kishi should have given us a run down on how it is achieved instead of just letting us guess? after all the hax abilities he afforded the sharingan, he still hasn't explained how mangekyou is achieved.

kakashi called it that but what does he really know about mangekyou? he's not even an uchiha. mangekyou has been deemed a forbidden ability for so long, i doubt a lot of people in konoha knew about it. if mangekyou is simply an evolved ability then why hasn't everyone tried to achieve it? kakashi's sharingan evolution could simply be something that occurred through extensive training. while mangekyou requires something else. it requires a trigger and that trigger has a very high price, otherwise all sharingan users would have tried to gain it.
We don't know how Kakashi activated his Mangekyou. I'd never believe it's something as silly as "kill your closest friend". The "real" trigger probably has to do with the user's mental state at the time of doing the supposed killing of one's best friend. If the same mental state can be achieved through different means, wouldn't the result be the same?

Regardless of the method Kakashi used, I have little reason to believe Kakashi's Mangekyou is something different. The eye changes shape and gives him wacky powers beyond the regular "Abnormal Attention To Detail With Photographic Memory And Hypnotic Abilities". I mean, it fits the description doesn't it?
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Old 2012-07-20, 12:15   Link #102
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Kakashi's eye is definitely MS. He called it that when he used it the first time. The reason he knows about it is because itachi used it on him when he performed tsukiomi on him. the retcon of itachi being a good guy takes that scene into consideration because even though he hurt kakashi, he also let him in on the secret of MS and that there was an evolution of sharingan he could strive for. saying its not MS, but an evolved sharingan is kinda pointless since MS is an evolved sharingan like Dengar pointed out.

also, my understanding is that more uchiha didn't have MS because it requires a latent ability of the user's own talent. not just any sharingan can become MS, only the elite Uchiha can do it. my hunch is that kakashi was able to acheive MS not just because of his own training, but because Obito had that latent talent. he was just a goof off and didnt train nor have the mental acumen of the elite ninja up to and during kakashi gaiden to showcase his true potential
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Old 2012-07-20, 13:29   Link #103
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The "real" trigger probably has to do with the user's mental state
In this chapter Tobi states that Kakashi "lived a life of regret". When you kill your best friend you regret it. This "life of regret" may be what allowed Kakashi to unlock it. Kakashi probably blames himself that he couldn't save his father, his sensei, Obito and Rin. And also Sasuke, since he was Sasuke's sensei.
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Old 2012-07-20, 17:22   Link #104
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"Regret" actually sounds a lot better than "Ultimate Sorrow" which is still rather vague.

It might even account Sasuke awakening his Mangekyou only after hearing the truth about his brother.


This is of course purely theoretical.
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Old 2012-07-21, 03:40   Link #105
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We're finally see tobi's face since naruto will smash it

Also why didn't tobi summoned the ten tails earlier he could've won the war. Also tobi knew about kakashi so he's definitely someone from konoha maybe an anbu?
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Old 2012-07-21, 03:47   Link #106
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^ Seriously I want like, a quarter for every single time somebody asks "Why didn't he summon the ten tails earlier?". I'd be a billionnaire by now. If you want possible answers, read the rest of the topic, I don't feel like repeating myself.
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Old 2012-07-21, 06:13   Link #107
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are we really nearing the end??? just when I'm curious with what's going to happen with Sasuke, they switch back to Naruto's battle...

that infinite tsukuyomi is understandable plot....
now what's left is Tobi's real identity.... Madara's younger brother??? Uchiha Shisui??? I can't think of anyone right now... >.<

and I agree with Dengar.... Actually he can summon ten tails from the start.... or maybe he actually want to try to devour hachibi and kyuubi?? when he knows he can't, he switch back to his original plan??
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Old 2012-07-21, 06:48   Link #108
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
as far as i'm concerned, he still hasn't explained why kakashi gained mangekyou or if indeed he did since some fans seem to think kakashi's "mangekyou" is merely an upgraded sharingan.
You and those fans are factually wrong. Sasuke confirmed that Kakashi had the Mangekyou Sharingan during their fight (Chapter 484, Page 7).
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Old 2012-07-21, 15:16   Link #109
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
also, my understanding is that more uchiha didn't have MS because it requires a latent ability of the user's own talent. not just any sharingan can become MS, only the elite Uchiha can do it. my hunch is that kakashi was able to acheive MS not just because of his own training, but because Obito had that latent talent. he was just a goof off and didnt train nor have the mental acumen of the elite ninja up to and during kakashi gaiden to showcase his true potential
interesting...we have only been "told" of 5 uchihas (potentially obito also)to awaken the mangekyou. (2pair of which are brothers). If this ability is latent among elite uchihas, u have an opinion on whether or not sasuke/itachi and shisui are related to izuna and Madara?
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Old 2012-07-22, 04:45   Link #110
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
interesting...we have only been "told" of 5 uchihas (potentially obito also)to awaken the mangekyou. (2pair of which are brothers). If this ability is latent among elite uchihas, u have an opinion on whether or not sasuke/itachi and shisui are related to izuna and Madara?
well i wouldn't be surprised to find out that they are. given their talent and ability it makes sense that they would be more closely related to the most powerful uchiha, even the RS' eldest son. itachi is not an anomally. since sasuke is capable of almost identical techniques and sharingan evolution, their elite status is clearly linked to genetics

i'm more inclined to believe that obito is closely related to madara given the similarity between kakashi's and tobi's MS techniques. it makes sense in obito theory as well since madara would have had to know that obito had that latent ability before he chose him as a vessel.
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Old 2012-07-22, 06:35   Link #111
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I still don't get how "Obito" can be a "Vessel" when Madara is clearly dead. You can't really call back a spirit from beyond if the spirit isn't beyond.
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Old 2012-07-22, 09:36   Link #112
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The problem with Tobi being the spirit of Madara within Obito isn't one of feasibility (just think of Orochimaru's revival last week).
No, the problem is that Tobi says he's nobody, doesn't have the same personality nor the same technique and fighting style and nor does he share the same knowledge than Madara (Edo Tensei).
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Old 2012-07-22, 10:02   Link #113
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The problem with Tobi being the spirit of Madara within Obito isn't one of feasibility (just think of Orochimaru's revival last week).
While this is an assumption on my part, it seemed that due to his horcruxes, Orochimaru never went to the other side at all. (aside from the fact that he was sealed rather than killed)
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Old 2012-07-22, 10:12   Link #114
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Regardless of death the fact remain that Orochimaru's mind(s) "live" within the hosts regardless of what happens to his "original" form. Thinks Kushina and Minato as well, Kushina died and yet her spirit was sealed inside Naruto while Minato's soul was sealed inside the Shinigami and yet still managed to seal himself (or part of himself, or his mind or however it works) inside Naruto as well.
There is many ways for Tobi to "be" Madara or to be convinced to be Madara (Genjutsu imprinted personality/memory for example) but the fact is that they seem to be nothing alike.
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Old 2012-07-22, 10:19   Link #115
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Note how every one of those examples contain circumstances that make Edo Tensei impossible, whereas with Madara, it WAS possible.
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Old 2012-07-22, 11:54   Link #116
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I don't see why Kushina couldn't be revived as an Edo and Minato's soul being trapped in the Shinigami has nothing to do with the fact that he also sealed his mind in Naruto at the same time so I fail to understand the point you were trying to make.
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Old 2012-07-22, 11:58   Link #117
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I still don't get how "Obito" can be a "Vessel" when Madara is clearly dead. You can't really call back a spirit from beyond if the spirit isn't beyond.
as Hunter pointed out, just take minato for example. he was dead, yet his spirit/chakra continued on in naruto's mind and influenced naruto's thoughts. whether or not it's the case, you can feasibly take the technique farther and add an element of mind control to it like what sasori used on yura, although tobi's split personality suggests to me that it isn't a complete mind control and that obito's personality is still present

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Note how every one of those examples contain circumstances that make Edo Tensei impossible, whereas with Madara, it WAS possible.
I'm fairly certain kushina could have been revived. her soul wasn't sealed in something like minato and orochimaru were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The problem with Tobi being the spirit of Madara within Obito isn't one of feasibility (just think of Orochimaru's revival last week).
No, the problem is that Tobi says he's nobody, doesn't have the same personality nor the same technique and fighting style and nor does he share the same knowledge than Madara (Edo Tensei).
his fighting style could be that of obito with MS since madara isn't the vessel, obito is (assuming obito actually is) also, I agree that tobi doesn't have the same personality as madara, but he does have that serious side to him. tobi has been living this whole time while madara has been dead so i think it's reasonable to believe that during that time his personality has developed, especially since he wasn't able to use the brute force that madara would have been used to using to get his way. and even though tobi says he's nobody, i think he's definitely somebody. otherwise him telling gai that there's no point in showing him his face doesn't really mean anything. i think that him saying he's nobody is kind of like in v for vendetta, but v was actually once somebody specific and just uses that 'zero' identity as a way to put his goal and idealism ahead of his individuality
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Old 2012-07-22, 13:16   Link #118
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I wonder if the truth that sasuke is looking for will relate everyone somehow ( edo-madara, Tobi, and Orochimaru) It just seems to me that kishi is completing a circle of powerful yet mysterious villains. Does anyone get the same impression?
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Old 2012-07-22, 13:44   Link #119
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Well, I'll admit the Kushina part is only conjecture, but I got the impression that her soul didn't pass on (yet). And Edo Tensei calls back the spirit from beyond.

Other than that, I fail to see how Madara can be in two places at once.
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Old 2012-07-22, 15:19   Link #120
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I don't suppose the mechanics of it all have been explained in relation to the Shinigami. Aren't Minato's, Kushina's, and half the Kyuubi's chakra with the Shinigami?
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