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Old 2012-07-22, 06:59   Link #29761
battle22
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True.. . But to redeem Kinzo, are we sure Kuwadorian Beato is Kinzos child? Maybe Bice was already pragnent?
Forgive my spelling ><
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Old 2012-07-22, 07:54   Link #29762
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Just because the "17 year old Angels" TIP has Lion and Will among the BL pairings Ange and Virgilia listed doesn't mean that Lion is confirmed as male. It might be a hint from Ryukishi, but then again, it might not.

Does the manga really confirm Lion as female? I know the person scanlating it at first chose to go with female (and later corrected the scan to be gender neutral), but that wasn't based on anything firm in canon. Was there something in a chapter later on which makes Lion much more likely to be a woman?

The fact Genji worried that Kinzo might make the same mistake again doesn't confirm anything either. Reason being that Kinzo is not the sanest person out there. There would still be a serious risk of him harming Lion. He thought that Moetrice was Bice reincarnated; what's to say that Beatrice's most recent "reincarnation" having a male body would stop him?
And yet, when you consider that Genji supposedly wanted to prevent Kinzo from seeing Beatrice in his grandchild\child, I can't help but wondering how would it make any sense if he actually made it even more likely to happen, by feminizing a boy.
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Old 2012-07-22, 08:38   Link #29763
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And yet, when you consider that Genji supposedly wanted to prevent Kinzo from seeing Beatrice in his grandchild\child, I can't help but wondering how would it make any sense if he actually made it even more likely to happen, by feminizing a boy.
True. On the other hand, Genji was putting Yasu at risk anyway. The sensible thing would be to not bring Yasu back to the island in the first place, eliminating that risk (and also the risk from Natsuhi!).

If Yasu was born a boy but sustained severe genital injuries in the fall from the cliff, the people deciding her future might not have seen any alternative to her being brought up as a girl.

In ep 7, it thankfully seems that Kinzo didn't end up going nuts about Lion, but whatever Lion's gender is I don't think it's likely that Lion's gender was disguised from the family.

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
True.. . But to redeem Kinzo, are we sure Kuwadorian Beato is Kinzos child? Maybe Bice was already pragnent?
Forgive my spelling ><
I agree that there's no hard proof that Kuwadorian Beato is Kinzo's child. She could easily be the child of someone else - a sailor, Genji, Nanjo...But I don't think that her not being his biological child would redeem Kinzo at all. After all, Moetrice was raised as Kinzo's child, and it doesn't seem at all likely that she accepted his feelings for her.
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Old 2012-07-22, 08:59   Link #29764
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Also she was probably underage

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I know the person scanlating it at first chose to go with female (and later corrected the scan to be gender neutral), but that wasn't based on anything firm in canon. Was there something in a chapter later on which makes Lion much more likely to be a woman?
Ah, it may have been an early scanlerror then, Lion introduced him/herself as their daughter. Also could you tell that person I worship the ground they walk on, and that they have inspired me to buy the yenpress version?
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Old 2012-07-22, 10:15   Link #29765
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I dunno ... to me, it sort of read like Erika deigned to solve those first 6/7 murders, but like ... on the claim that she ONLY needed information from the first 10 chapters of a 30 chapter book. So long as they aren't refuted by the GM later, it's possible for there to be multiple truths ... but there certainly at least should have been an "intended" single truth.
You know, I wonder if this was all part of Lambdadelta's plan. That she actually wanted Erika to end the game early, so that she wouldn't have to give any hints towards ShKanon.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I understand the first bit, you are saying she never investigated a real crime, but what about the crimes that would light on being fake bit?
Perhaps wording it this way will help:

She didn't do any investigating (of fake crimes) that would actually light on the fact they were fake crimes.
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Old 2012-07-22, 10:35   Link #29766
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Back on Topic, it is pretty strange that a body would have been kept for over a year for the sake of the murder games. Where would Genji and/or Yasu keep Kinzo? How popular is the "The strange smells in Kinzo's room is the smell of death/ embalming chemicals" theory? It makes sense, but I really can't think of much else. It's probably not important though...
That theory doesn't work because Natsuhi has one of the keys to the room. She would have investigated any kind of weird odor emanating from there even if she wasn't constantly going in and out (which EP5 suggested she was).
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Old 2012-07-22, 13:35   Link #29767
Jan-Poo
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Imagine if there's a Genji's secret room with his collection of embalmed people.

Jokes apart I think there's a chance that "kinzo's corpse" was a dummy and not a real corpse.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
True. On the other hand, Genji was putting Yasu at risk anyway. The sensible thing would be to not bring Yasu back to the island in the first place, eliminating that risk (and also the risk from Natsuhi!).

If Yasu was born a boy but sustained severe genital injuries in the fall from the cliff, the people deciding her future might not have seen any alternative to her being brought up as a girl.
I guess that a sex reassignment program is the only way to explain such thing without thinking Genji is nut or an asshole, in part because in that case it'd be probably Nanjo's idea, and in part because it was more justifiable. There's been several cases of infants being put under a sex reassignment program after the loss of their penis (most of the time due to a circumcision gone wrong), though the practice is heavily questioned by some and there's a famous case where it didn't work at all.

Still is a medic in a god forsaken island where there aren't even ambulances qualified to such a thing? Something like that should have required specialized surgery at first, vaginoplasty later (and with the lack of a penis the only option would be to use part of the colon, not really a simple operation) and hormone therapy by the time Yasu became pubescent.

I wonder if something like that was ever done in Japan around that time or if Ryuukishi even thought this scenario, but the alternative would be to think that they said a retarded: "you lost your penis: you're a girl".
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Old 2012-07-22, 14:23   Link #29768
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I just want to point out that the manga never specifies Lion's gender in any way. That was purely on the part of the scanlator taking things into his own hands very unprofessionally.
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Old 2012-07-22, 14:43   Link #29769
GabrieliosP
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Hmm... Still, my personal canon is that Yasu was born male. The testicles are the part of the body that produces testosterone, the hormone responsible for changes like deepening of the voice, masculinization of the body, etc. It is a possible explanation as to why Kanon has feminine features and a not-so-manly voice and Shannon using fake breasts.

Then again, Yasu's gender is a catbox by itself and this is only my opinion.
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Old 2012-07-22, 16:11   Link #29770
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You know, I wonder if this was all part of Lambdadelta's plan. That she actually wanted Erika to end the game early, so that she wouldn't have to give any hints towards ShKanon.
An interesting thought, but I kinda doubt it? Like, even if it was Lambda's plan, she would still presumably have to have an entire scenario prepared, anyway. Similarly to how BATTLER needed to have an entire Dawn scenario prepared, whether Genius-Battler was true or not. And if we take Our Confessions into account, it's blatantly a concern of the author that "okay, I need to give Shannon or Kanon a reasonable excuse to not be present for awhile", whereas End just kinda ignores them entirely. XD
[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Jokes apart I think there's a chance that "kinzo's corpse" was a dummy and not a real corpse.
I always thought that ran afoul of Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!, from EP4, which was used to deny tyheories like this person prepared a fake corpse and hid away, giving them the alibi of death while commiting murders.


Also, I guess it exists, but nobody's translated the "17 Year Old Angels" thing? Too bad, that sounds hilarious. About the voice, well ... Lion DOES pretty much have a girls voice in Nocturne, which was kind of a disappointment. Kanon, though, is pretty reasonable described as seeming like a late bloomer. Hell, I have a male friend several years older than me who's still occasionally mistaken for his mother on the phone.
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Old 2012-07-22, 20:02   Link #29771
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, I guess it exists, but nobody's translated the "17 Year Old Angels" thing? Too bad, that sounds hilarious.
I did a translation for a friend awhile ago...I thought it already existed in translated form, that's why I never posted it, but here you go.
Not really much time right now, but I will reply to some stuff later I think.

Spoiler for Angel of 17 years TIP:
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Old 2012-07-22, 20:13   Link #29772
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
True.. . But to redeem Kinzo, are we sure Kuwadorian Beato is Kinzos child? Maybe Bice was already pragnent?
Forgive my spelling ><
There is a better redemption-theory for Kinzo than that, I think.

Kinzo believed that Beatrice's soul jumped from mother to child at the moment of the mother's death and the child's birth. It's possible that he latched on to this idea and was checking orphanages for a child born nearby at around the same time. Bern created the incest implication because, well, Trollkastle.

That lines up with the lack of any sign that Kuwadorian Beatrice was ever pregnant or that she was concerned about leaving a newborn child behind.

In this theory, the sin that Kinzo regrets so deeply and that Genji was afraid he would repeat is forcing a child to grow up in complete isolation from the outside world, never learning anything about how life or the outside world really are. It is selfish and also harmful to the child, even though it is a lot more understandable and forgivable than incest-pedo-Kinzo.
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Old 2012-07-22, 20:55   Link #29773
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That tip 17 year old Angels was just fantastic
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Old 2012-07-22, 21:10   Link #29774
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
If Yasu was born a boy but sustained severe genital injuries in the fall from the cliff, the people deciding her future might not have seen any alternative to her being brought up as a girl.
Hum... how this would help? Just because he sustained genital injury this wouldn't turn him into a girl...

Plus I've always thought that, if they were to change Yasu's sex, then it would be pointless to also change his/her age.
Changing his/her sex would be... radical enough.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I did a translation for a friend awhile ago...I thought it already existed in translated form, that's why I never posted it, but here you go.
Not really much time right now, but I will reply to some stuff later I think.
Thank you so much for the translated script!

...And after reading it I start to think the meta of Umineko was all in Ange's head... it would explain why Battler keeps on failing and has no knowledge of mystery...
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Old 2012-07-22, 21:43   Link #29775
Golden Bug-Hunter
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I did a translation for a friend awhile ago...I thought it already existed in translated form, that's why I never posted it, but here you go.
Not really much time right now, but I will reply to some stuff later I think.
Thank you for posting that. Hilarious.
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Old 2012-07-22, 21:49   Link #29776
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I did a translation for a friend awhile ago...I thought it already existed in translated form, that's why I never posted it, but here you go.
Thank you very much.
THERE ARE NO WORDS for what I just read.
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Old 2012-07-22, 21:52   Link #29777
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
That tip 17 year old Angels was just fantastic
You read it?
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Old 2012-07-22, 23:18   Link #29778
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You read it?
I posted a translation in my last post and I think about 50min should be enough to finish reading it.

I know we had the discussion about Ryûkishi's questionable sexuality once before...and I know it isn't very nice to speculate about stuff like that...But pleeeease, Ryûkishi, writing stuff like that really doesn't put you in a favourable situation
If it had just been a short little skit, but this is long and elaborate...and he knows the terminology
Not that I'd care if he had certain interests toward that...but it would again explain soooo much of the whole "LOVE CONQUERS ALL" stuff in Umineko...
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Old 2012-07-23, 02:19   Link #29779
AuraTwilight
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Oh damn, I completely missed that post! Durr!

...Oh my god this is the best thing.

Oh my god.

Oh my...never in all my years could I have imagined Hide-

...Woah.


WOAH.



WOAAAAHHHHH.

Alright this is canon. Agreed?
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Old 2012-07-23, 02:31   Link #29780
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I think that TIPS just broke my brain into tiny pieces.
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