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Old 2012-07-22, 19:26   Link #10141
Wolfenstein
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The anwser is simple: Medaka's arrogant as shit. And she's underestimating her opponents, and being more than a tad selfish. It's not like Anshin' san dosen't have her own feelings towards Zenkichi she wants to act upon.

But, like it's been said, she is one helluva stupid human being. In love. So it can be expected. And it's completely understandable. It's just that she's so bland and boring about it...
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Old 2012-07-22, 19:30   Link #10142
ccie20012
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You trust too much Ajimu and do not trust Medaka.
Ajimu said - I can save everyone.
Medaka said I could save everyone.
Why Medaka must give the work to someone else.
I think we should have more confidence in the choice of Medaka.
Do you think that if the Medaka said - let's Ajimu do it - then the next moment everything would be done.
But I guess the next time or Ajimu again would be captured or Zen would have died.
The main reason - the enemies are not complete idiots, they would have never released Ajimu, if it did not have an absolute technique to combat it.
They could just say - we free anyone, but not Ajimu (!) And Zen.
I would give Medaka opportunity to do their job.

Before I give all to the hands Ajimu - see prev chapters (this Arc) Ajimu won at someone? She just sat in jail.

Put yourself in the Medaka place. Ajimu that can be easily captured, and it did not come out to freedom itself. Yeah, maybe she did not care - free or not. Can not get - well, sit here.
Living a Zen or dead - in the end it for her is not priority number one.
There is a saying - "if you want to do something good, do it yourself."
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Old 2012-07-22, 19:40   Link #10143
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@Sol Falling: It's Momo and Shichika... Momoko reduces the beauty of Momozono Momo into nothingness while Ichika turns Shichika into Kazune... Nisio's names are special, so it gets really annoying to see them misspelled over and over again. ;;;;

@Tenchi Hou Take: It's "father figure (Tsurubami Fukurou)" not father (Kurokami Kajiki)... As Kujira pointed out, their father is safe and doing well...

There is no higher percentage than 100%. She is 100% sure both she and Ajimu have a 100% chance of saving Zenkichi and as Cross said, she wants to be the one to save him. We as the readers and those around her might see it in a different way, but this is the way Medaka sees it and as long as people around her agree to it and don't interfere, we have no right to judge.
You can call foul all you want, but next week or the week after that or the week after that or the week after that something will surely make all this make sense in a spectacular fashion, so there is no need to discuss it.

(What Cross means isn't manga logic in any way, it's the common sense of Medaka's own world --a world governed by whimsy more than anything else.)

In the end, the whimsical god would just create a new universe and revive Zenkichi there or just give up and erase the universe all together. We can't fathom how those without equals think now, can we... If the rules doesn't suit her, she'll remake them.


@ccie20012: If there is something Ajimu cannot do, it's because she doesn't want to do it yet. She is as omnipotent and omniscience as it gets. However, she is too whimsical and because she existed far longer than the universe itself, time is probably nothing to her. Waiting to see things unfold without helping -- that's what she was doing, not simply "staying in jail" because she couldn't leave.
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Old 2012-07-22, 19:40   Link #10144
Kurosu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
The anwser is simple: Medaka's arrogant as shit. And she's underestimating her opponents, and being more than a tad selfish. It's not like Anshin' san dosen't have her own feelings towards Zenkichi she wants to act upon.

But, like it's been said, she is one helluva stupid human being. In love. So it can be expected. And it's completely understandable. It's just that she's so bland and boring about it...
This, pretty much.

Though, did anyone really expect Anshin'in to just end the arc right now by god-moding it?
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Old 2012-07-22, 19:58   Link #10145
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naginoura View Post
@Sol Falling: It's Momo and Shichika... Momoko reduces the beauty of Momozono Momo into nothingness while Ichika turns Shichika into Kazune... Nisio's names are special, so it gets really annoying to see them misspelled over and over again. ;;;;

@Tenchi Hou Take: It's "father figure (Tsurubami Fukurou)" not father (Kurokami Kajiki)... As Kujira pointed out, their father is safe and doing well...

There is no higher percentage than 100%. She is 100% sure both she and Ajimu have a 100% chance of saving Zenkichi and as Cross said, she wants to be the one to save him. We as the readers and those around her might see it in a different way, but this is the way Medaka sees it and as long as people around her agree to it and don't interfere, we have no right to judge.
You can call foul all you want, but next week or the week after that or the week after that or the week after that something will surely make all this make sense in a spectacular fashion, so there is no need to discuss it.

(What Cross means isn't manga logic in any way, it's the common sense of Medaka's own world --a world governed by whimsy more than anything else.)

In the end, the whimsical god would just create a new universe and revive Zenkichi there or just give up and erase the universe all together. We can't fathom how those without equals think now, can we... If the rules doesn't suit her, she'll remake them.


@ccie20012: If there is something Ajimu cannot do, it's because she doesn't want to do it yet. She is as omnipotent and omniscience as it gets. However, she is too whimsical and because she existed far longer than the universe itself, time is probably nothing to her. Waiting to see things unfold without helping -- that's what she was doing, not simply "staying in jail" because she couldn't leave.
Your pedantic, you knew what I meant she considered him to be her father like an adoptive father would though he didn't actually adopt her.

That's not how it works she admitted Aijimu is a more powerful and that she could easily save him, but she'd rather take the risk a risk she was well aware of, she didn't even completely understand the rules of their game back then, so ofcourse she knew the risk, you can't be 100% in a game you don't know the rules of, unless your honestly going to argue for that which case lol... she was confident in her abilities and wanted to fight for Zenkichi, but it's clear as day she was taking a risk on his life.
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Old 2012-07-22, 20:02   Link #10146
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
This, pretty much.

Though, did anyone really expect Anshin'in to just end the arc right now by god-moding it?
To be honest, I thought Ajimu was going to keep-out of the arc for a longer stretch of time, specifically to avoid this scenario.
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Old 2012-07-22, 20:19   Link #10147
ccie20012
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The impression that we are having a dispute facts vs faith.

Ajime is in jail and think, "oh need to get out - but I do not know how".
By this logic, it turns out that she herself put in jail.
It is omnipotent.
As in any other manga - especially in the Nishino - it has its limitations and weaknesses.
I do not want to say that the Medaka can not be wrong, but why should she give work to Ajimu.
Medaka has enormous power.
Everything in this forum admired her strength.
Medaka is also a huge motivation. It saves a loved one who has come to save her.

The phrase it's my job - like the detectives about the rescue of the hostages when the police are trying to replace the security services.
And police also say, let us do our job.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-08-05 at 21:30.
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Old 2012-07-22, 20:37   Link #10148
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
The impression that we are having a dispute facts vs faith.

Ajime is in jail and think, "oh need to get out - but I do not know how".
By this logic, it turns out that she herself put in jail.
It is omnipotent.
As in any other manga - especially in the Nishino - it has its limitations and weaknesses.
I do not want to say that the Medaka can not be wrong, but why should she give work to Ajimu.
Medaka has enormous power.
Everything in this forum admired her strength.
Medaka is also a huge motivation. It saves a loved one who has come to save her.

The phrase it's my job - like the detectives about the rescue of the hostages when the police are trying to replace the security services.
And police also say, let us do our job.
I don't see your point, she's riduclously more powerful than Medaka, taught the person who completely destroyed Medaka to the point where she could have easily become his slave had he wished and was stated to be able to do everything impossibility in the universe as well being alive since it's existence.

And your saying Medaka was a better bet than her? Ok then... I have no idea how that remotely makes sense but I'll play along...

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-08-05 at 21:31.
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Old 2012-07-22, 20:48   Link #10149
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Naginoura View Post
@Sol Falling: It's Momo and Shichika... Momoko reduces the beauty of Momozono Momo into nothingness while Ichika turns Shichika into Kazune... Nisio's names are special, so it gets really annoying to see them misspelled over and over again. ;;;;
lol, sorry. Yeah, I don't keep exact names that well, I probably should have double-checked.

@Medaka's decision:
It's not pride, it's (stupid) idealism/optimism, lol. Which are pretty much the basis of both Medaka and Zenkichi's characters (thus far anyway). Medaka insisting on being the one to save Zenkichi is no less irrational than for example Zenkichi asking for his ability to be Devil Style. It's completely in character and I am even 100% certain that Zenkichi himself would approve of the decision (although the other characters might not).

However, while I agree that Medaka's decision was extremely irrational and to some degree stupid, we also ALL know of course that there's no way things could turn out really badly (like Zenkichi dying or something). After all, we've got characters like Ajimu and Kumagawa hanging around in the background. So it doesn't really matter. (On a meta level actually, I'd say the most important reason for holding Ajimu back and allowing the Suitors to stay in the picture is precisely to keep the storyline about Medaka's "father" open. This is something the audience still needs/wants to know, even if it's no longer Medaka's own primary concern/motivation.).

More importantly though, it's not even that it doesn't matter, but that Medaka's stupid idealism has in fact been the source of a ton of character development in this manga. From the start of the story we had things like Medaka doing stupidly idealistic things like wanting to help everybody, or refusing to dodge, or trusting anyone, or being trolled by Kumagawa (lol). In all cases Medaka eventually grew out of those things and became a more realistic/relatable/rational character. So even though everything is gonna turn out fine and Medaka might even pull out a perfect win via her MC hax or some shit, I'm also/still pretty confident Medaka will mature/grow out of this case of idealistic bullshit too.
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Old 2012-07-22, 22:42   Link #10150
orangejuicetang
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Onto another topic, something I just noticed when I reread the chapter.

What happens if one of the other 2 suitors when the game in reference to the bet? Does Medaka and 2-d loli girl no longer need to mutilate themselves?
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Old 2012-07-22, 23:41   Link #10151
Guernsey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, sorry. Yeah, I don't keep exact names that well, I probably should have double-checked.

@Medaka's decision:
It's not pride, it's (stupid) idealism/optimism, lol. Which are pretty much the basis of both Medaka and Zenkichi's characters (thus far anyway). Medaka insisting on being the one to save Zenkichi is no less irrational than for example Zenkichi asking for his ability to be Devil Style. It's completely in character and I am even 100% certain that Zenkichi himself would approve of the decision (although the other characters might not).

However, while I agree that Medaka's decision was extremely irrational and to some degree stupid, we also ALL know of course that there's no way things could turn out really badly (like Zenkichi dying or something). After all, we've got characters like Ajimu and Kumagawa hanging around in the background. So it doesn't really matter. (On a meta level actually, I'd say the most important reason for holding Ajimu back and allowing the Suitors to stay in the picture is precisely to keep the storyline about Medaka's "father" open. This is something the audience still needs/wants to know, even if it's no longer Medaka's own primary concern/motivation.).

More importantly though, it's not even that it doesn't matter, but that Medaka's stupid idealism has in fact been the source of a ton of character development in this manga. From the start of the story we had things like Medaka doing stupidly idealistic things like wanting to help everybody, or refusing to dodge, or trusting anyone, or being trolled by Kumagawa (lol). In all cases Medaka eventually grew out of those things and became a more realistic/relatable/rational character. So even though everything is gonna turn out fine and Medaka might even pull out a perfect win via her MC hax or some shit, I'm also/still pretty confident Medaka will mature/grow out of this case of idealistic bullshit too.
To be fair, some shonen heroes and/or heroines are idealistic to a fault and Medaka is no exception. In the real world, their decisions would had gotten them killed ten times over however surreal gag manga or otherwise, it is still a action shonen series where the heroes are more or less rewarded for their idealism.
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Old 2012-07-23, 00:48   Link #10152
telamont
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Enjoyed this chapter. Happy the Jokers are all back. Was somewhat curious though how people here would react to Medaka wanting to rescue Zen herself and sure enough...

But aren't you guys using double standards here? Medaka wanting to rescue Zenkichi herself = arrogant, irresponsible, "dangerously messed up in the head." She should just leave it all to the omnipotent goddess Najimi. Higher probability of success that way. OK. Fine.

But then by that harsh measure... who's the measly "normal" who thought he could "come to the rescue" of that self same omnipotent goddess, a god maker, the King of the Minuses, the pinnacle of all Abnormals, and two other people who are at least equally if not much more competent than him? What does he have to offer that they don't? And rather than get in the way of people who don't need his help, doesn't he have a school to look after as the new student council president?

Yep. It was an arrogant, irresponsible, "lethally messed up in the head" decision. Naturally, he "rescued" noone and ended up a hostage. He was way out of his league, had no place being there, and thus paid for it with his life. Serves him right.

Just to clarify, since sarcasm does not carry well over the internet, I myself have no problems with either Medaka or Zenkichi doing what they did, but hey if you're going to bash, then let's be fair, right?

Seriously, people in love can do stupid things. Further more, it's a manga, some suspension of disbelief is required. Just relax people, and enjoy the ride.
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Old 2012-07-23, 05:13   Link #10153
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
To be fair, some shonen heroes and/or heroines are idealistic to a fault and Medaka is no exception. In the real world, their decisions would had gotten them killed ten times over however surreal gag manga or otherwise, it is still a action shonen series where the heroes are more or less rewarded for their idealism.
Haha, this actually gets into the nature of Medaka Box as an innovative series/piece of literature in my opinion. I mean, you're completely right: in tons of normal shounens, the main characters are completely unbelievably idealistic but somehow (actually, pretty much precisely because "it's a shounen") they manage to get away with it. Somehow the hero/heroine gets the power to make their dreams reality, to prove their ideals, etc. etc. and save the day. That's the power/nature of fiction. That's the kind of story you want to be telling kids of the shounen demographic age group (i.e. ~6-14 yr olds. Of course, that's not to say that other people (girls, older people like ourselves, etc.) don't read them too).

The first major innovation Medaka Box brings into this picture (which, I suppose to be clear, doesn't necessarily make Medaka Box a better shounen series; it simply makes Medaka Box unique, and thereby, fairly interesting to me as an older reader), is that this idealistic/unbelievable "make the Main Character's always win" concept is an actual FORCE in Medaka Box's story. That is to say, we all know why Medaka gets away with her stupid idealism, don't we? It's because of the cheap asspulls which come from her being a Main Character. Even Zenkichi used to say, "Medaka is always right; even when her decisions are irrational or make no sense". It is pretty much implied directly in the story how Medaka's ridiculous luck/abilities are responsible for why Medaka has always managed to keep on winning/standing over other people despite her many retarded/ridiculous idealisms.

In most shounen stories, the hero holds onto ideals like "hard work" or "friendship" or "no one is useless" or other such archetypical "morals" and overcomes impossible/ridiculous odds in order to somehow achieve victory. As impressionable young readers, we are supposed to take that victory and think "wow, hard work/friendship/believing in people/etc. are awesome!" and take away some optimistic feeling towards the world from the story. What Medaka Box does, however, is switch things around. Rather than trying to sell us some idealistic moral, Medaka Box tells us straight up that "the most important thing in shounen manga is just power/winning", and also that the only thing which controls that is the arbitrary will of the author. It doesn't matter what ideals, what "moral", whatever are being presented in the story; the truth is simply that in fiction, whatever the author wants to happen--happens.

However the NEXT aspect, the second one, is actually more important/valuable IMO. It's also the basis of good narratives/fiction in general, without which Medaka Box, even with it's "uniqueness", would be worthless. That is the fact that, even though arbitrary authorial conveniences like Medaka's "Main Character" powers or Kumagawa's "Eternal Loser" status run amok everywhere--the characters actually still grow, are relatable, and can be seen as human. Even though Medaka starts off with TONS of bullshit illogical idealisms and retarded "shounen MC" ideas (i.e. never let anybody get hurt, don't dodge, try to help everybody), she actually grows and learns and becomes a more relatable character. And this basically goes for any of the other characters as well, although Medaka is mostly the only one who is blatantly flawed with ridiculous shounen ideologies; all of the cast are human, believable characters, who go through a process of making mistakes, learning from them, and becoming stronger. The point is that, even though in the end this entire story is just arbitrary authorial bullshit written the way Nishio wanted it (like any other work of fiction), the ultimate messages/characterizations Nishio writes into his story ARE believable and meaningful and human.

I mean, to use some examples not involving Medaka: Zenkichi's arc was basically all about proving he wasn't born just to be a worthless sacrifice to Medaka. He wasn't born just to struggle pointlessly for her sake, and then be thrown away because he isn't "special". He wasn't born just to forever worship Medaka because of her "specialness", while never amounting to anything or receiving anything on his own. That struggle was human.

Kumagawa's arc as well: it's also true that Kumagawa wasn't born just to be a loser, living an entire life just to suffer and bring suffering to others. It is true that Kumagawa wasn't born just to believe that for him, ever winning was an impossibility, something he should not even bother desiring or hoping for. Kumagawa's failures and desire to win, that was human.

In the same way, Medaka wasn't born just to devote herself to living selflessly/impartially in order to help others. And Ajimu wasn't born just to accomplish anything easily, living emptily in an artificial, meaningless reality. The core parts, the characterization in Medaka Box's story, is filled with meaningful stuff that any human could understand (i.e. "find realistic") and relate to. These is the real ideas/feelings that Nishio is trying to communicate through his story, not any of the cheap "idealism" of a normal shounen.

In this clear way, then, that's why I think "bullshit Main Character idealism" is one of the major concepts Nishio is opposing with this story. And that's why it's pretty obvious to me that Medaka's irrationality in this chapter is not really something to get worried/angry over. Even if Medaka gets away with her reckless course of action due to authorial bullshit, I'm sure in the end she will probably learn something and come closer to recognizing how to properly interact with reality.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-07-23 at 05:30.
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Old 2012-07-23, 05:31   Link #10154
novalysis
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I get the impression that Medaka Box would have worked far, far better as a LN, or even a novel then a manga.

The problem is, the adaptation fails to grasp the various essence of Medaka Box, and it's very hard to do so on a Cour by Cour basis. Medaka Box, IMO is meant to be read not one chapter by chapter, but arc by arc.
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Old 2012-07-23, 06:12   Link #10155
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by telamont View Post
Enjoyed this chapter. Happy the Jokers are all back. Was somewhat curious though how people here would react to Medaka wanting to rescue Zen herself and sure enough...

But aren't you guys using double standards here? Medaka wanting to rescue Zenkichi herself = arrogant, irresponsible, "dangerously messed up in the head." She should just leave it all to the omnipotent goddess Najimi. Higher probability of success that way. OK. Fine.

But then by that harsh measure... who's the measly "normal" who thought he could "come to the rescue" of that self same omnipotent goddess, a god maker, the King of the Minuses, the pinnacle of all Abnormals, and two other people who are at least equally if not much more competent than him? What does he have to offer that they don't? And rather than get in the way of people who don't need his help, doesn't he have a school to look after as the new student council president?

Yep. It was an arrogant, irresponsible, "lethally messed up in the head" decision. Naturally, he "rescued" noone and ended up a hostage. He was way out of his league, had no place being there, and thus paid for it with his life. Serves him right.

Just to clarify, since sarcasm does not carry well over the internet, I myself have no problems with either Medaka or Zenkichi doing what they did, but hey if you're going to bash, then let's be fair, right?

Seriously, people in love can do stupid things. Further more, it's a manga, some suspension of disbelief is required. Just relax people, and enjoy the ride.
There's no double standards. He wasn't risking there lives in the process which is my point, Aijimu was captured he couldn't ask for her for help no one else bothered to go than the people he brought with him who follow him of there own volition. Hell he forced the suitors to change up there strategy massively and prevented them from going to the moon, he was only risking his life, since they were already captured. It's perfectly fine to risk your own life it's your life it's something else entirely to risk someone elses without their actual consent based entirely on pride.

Whether he's willing to do the same thing Medaka did based only on pride is another question entirely, he may or may not i don't know but the fact of the matter is he hasn't done so, so far.
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Old 2012-07-23, 07:42   Link #10156
ccie20012
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@Tenchi Hou Take
There is another argument.
The purpose of Medaka in the beginning of the arch - to win the tournament, to be free.
The current goal Medaka - to win the tournament, to be free and ... marry to Zen.

As I understand it, but winning the tournament it will ensure a peaceful future (Medaka and Zen too).
Give the girl to win for his happiness ... It would be foolish to say that it is not worried about Zen or is not a major priority for her.
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Old 2012-07-23, 09:31   Link #10157
Soji
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The thing i wonder here is....what will happen if Zen stay death to long. (i think some one else already point out this).
From what i remember seem that even Najimi can restore memory ...i mean he never remember the past from what i recall.I will laught if when they bring him back to life he lose most of his memory and his love confession toward Medaka.
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Old 2012-07-23, 10:02   Link #10158
ziggi92
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What I find weird is why are suitors for Medaka females I mean it is not possible that they could ever Married Medaka not that I'm against Gay marriage but I'm looking at through views that reason this feast is to find right/strongest mate for the Heir of Kurokami Family since Medaka is Female there is no possible way that girl and girl can have pureblood heir when time would come for new heir kurokami corp after Medaka.

as we can see here when she is explaining the Jet black Wedding Feast:
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/95207/m...y_cxc-scans/12

and also Where IS Kamome Tsurubami? ... I means he is suppose to be the only Male suitor yet I think I have never read about him being one of Captives so again where is he?

I have theory that he maybe I behind of all this scheme which is Jet Black Wedding Feast I mean from what We read about him from Ajimu here:
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/41879/m...by_cxc-scans/6
He known as Dark Hero a Figure that works from the shadows you compare him as like Godfather of Mafia man who works in shadows while Letting others do the dirty work.

And I never felt like he lost to Medaka in their small fight when They meet up first but I think it was just to Test how strong Medaka is.

I have all ways felt strange around Tsurubami since I think he stronger than he is showing use now and what do know about this so called Kamome System?
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Old 2012-07-23, 11:00   Link #10159
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ziggi92 View Post
and also Where IS Kamome Tsurubami? ... I means he is suppose to be the only Male suitor yet I think I have never read about him being one of Captives so again where is he?
He's one of the two still sealed in a card, along with Shiranui.
That said, unlike the other four we've never actually seen his card.
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Old 2012-07-23, 17:18   Link #10160
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
He's one of the two still sealed in a card, along with Shiranui.
That said, unlike the other four we've never actually seen his card.
Really? I was certain Momo flashed it when she asked Medaka to choose the hostages that would be given away.
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