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Old 2012-07-20, 22:20   Link #961
judasmartel
神の金槌 (ユダ=マーテル)
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But then again, only Christian and Norse magic systems were shown in the series so far, so anyone else might not be convinced that magic can be just as interesting as Science.

Maybe kamachi.exe should feature Greek magic and vampires next time?
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Old 2012-07-20, 22:32   Link #962
Kenju of the Right
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What makes you think they might not be convinced Magic not being as interesting as Science for that reason? I personally find Magic more interesting myself
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Old 2012-07-20, 22:47   Link #963
Miraluka
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Saints, GRS, AC and others like KL, Birdway are cool character
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Old 2012-07-21, 02:11   Link #964
judasmartel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right View Post
What makes you think they might not be convinced Magic not being as interesting as Science for that reason? I personally find Magic more interesting myself
Because magic spells ain't as cool as esper powers (like conjuring lightning from your hands or reflecting any kind of attack)? I also find magic just as interesting as esper powers, but it seems to me that magic spells have become increasingly overpowered.

That said, I still stand by my statement that more magic systems (and vampires) should be explored.

@Wilfriback I agree with your statement. It probably didn't help that Kamikoto got Worfed recently.
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Old 2012-07-21, 11:40   Link #965
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Question

I've been thinking about magic that is derived from taking stories and overwriting religious motifs onto them (e.g. Cendrillon's magic), and their limits. However I haven't got a particularly good grasp of magical processes so I was wondering if someone could point out if I've gone wrong somewhere.

If I understand correctly, Idol Theory states that duplicates retain a tiny fraction of the power of the original, and this is how most magicians draw their power. If the stories need to be overwritten with religious motifs in order to use them as the basis for magic, would this mean that the source of power is entirely from the religion the motifs came from merely moulded by the shape of the story, or would the figures the story was based on have had to have actual power as well? Also, if it were entirely derived from religion, wouldn't it be limited by any limits of that religion as a result?
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Old 2012-07-21, 12:43   Link #966
Saishy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inept Forum User View Post
I've been thinking about magic that is derived from taking stories and overwriting religious motifs onto them (e.g. Cendrillon's magic), and their limits. However I haven't got a particularly good grasp of magical processes so I was wondering if someone could point out if I've gone wrong somewhere.

If I understand correctly, Idol Theory states that duplicates retain a tiny fraction of the power of the original, and this is how most magicians draw their power. If the stories need to be overwritten with religious motifs in order to use them as the basis for magic, would this mean that the source of power is entirely from the religion the motifs came from merely moulded by the shape of the story, or would the figures the story was based on have had to have actual power as well? Also, if it were entirely derived from religion, wouldn't it be limited by any limits of that religion as a result?
It don't need to have religion meaning to work, but it helps because of the nature of magic.

Something have a magic meaning when it is believed to have so by humanity, it does not mean people must believe something is magic, just means something must be in the human psique.

Religion spells are famous because religion is very widespread, among people and among history it is rooted very deeply in our world so it is easier to extract the magical meaning.

But we have spells like Scattered Grass from Itsuwa who uses the meaning of layers of a tree as their age to reinforce a weapon with many layers of resine.
So it uses a meaning that is rooted in our world but is not religious.

Edit: I would just like to comment about the Shopping Mall Demonstration Side Story, a magic cabal was investigating it because it was believed they could use a software (that was able to control group psychology) as a means to interfere in the magic side.
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Old 2012-07-23, 07:14   Link #967
oltjenbruns.john
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index ability

I got curious about Index ability, if she think that she is unable to use magic then intercepting other's spell is considered a magic?
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Old 2012-07-23, 07:35   Link #968
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oltjenbruns.john View Post
I got curious about Index ability, if she think that she is unable to use magic then intercepting other's spell is considered a magic?
It's a technicality; but basically her intercepting other spells is not magic because (for a lack of a better term) she isn't using her own mana.

Spell Intercept works something like suggestion- when people tell you not to think of pink elephants, your brain automatically picture a pink elephant. Essentially she's 'hacking' into the magician's mind and giving it bad commands.

This is as simple as I can explain it I'm afraid
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Old 2012-07-23, 08:08   Link #969
oltjenbruns.john
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
It's a technicality; but basically her intercepting other spells is not magic because (for a lack of a better term) she isn't using her own mana.

Spell Intercept works something like suggestion- when people tell you not to think of pink elephants, your brain automatically picture a pink elephant. Essentially she's 'hacking' into the magician's mind and giving it bad commands.

This is as simple as I can explain it I'm afraid
I'm still bit confused. let say she is not using mana then how is she able to link that without the relation of magic. now, i'm confused.
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Old 2012-07-23, 08:41   Link #970
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by oltjenbruns.john View Post
I'm still bit confused. let say she is not using mana then how is she able to link that without the relation of magic. now, i'm confused.
What she controls is not the magic itself but rather the magician that is controlling the magic- all of her abilities involve with messing with the magician's head.

That's why when the Golem switch to AUTO mode, Spell Intercept had no effect.
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Old 2012-07-23, 10:53   Link #971
Kenju of the Right
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Because magic spells ain't as cool as esper powers (like conjuring lightning from your hands or reflecting any kind of attack)? I also find magic just as interesting as esper powers, but it seems to me that magic spells have become increasingly overpowered.

That said, I still stand by my statement that more magic systems (and vampires) should be explored.

@Wilfriback I agree with your statement. It probably didn't help that Kamikoto got Worfed recently.
Hm I get ya, I think Magic is just as cool(actually cooler(Like the Magic of God's Right Seat are REALLY Cool!!!!)) but yeah probably about most of people would believe Esper Powers are cooler and therefor more interesting.
__________________

He believes.
Even though he’s tired and one leg’s in the coffin, he believes.
He believes in his right fist,
in the path that his weapon creates,
in the scene when his weapon brutally hits the enemy’s body,
that his victory will bring about a wonderful future.
Kamijou Touma’s actions are based on trust.-

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Old 2012-07-23, 11:47   Link #972
Phibrizzo
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Spell intercept is like injecting code in a program to make it do something else while it's running.

Now I have always have my problems that index magic system is complex and not easily explained, and complex in a bad way. For example Negima and Slayers have both a fairly complex magic system but it make a bit more sense and is easy to get the basics of it.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:38   Link #973
Saishy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phibrizzo View Post
Spell intercept is like injecting code in a program to make it do something else while it's running.

Now I have always have my problems that index magic system is complex and not easily explained, and complex in a bad way. For example Negima and Slayers have both a fairly complex magic system but it make a bit more sense and is easy to get the basics of it.
Really? I think it is quite basic.

Imagine that magic is like programming.
Ideas are the programming language.

So if you are a programmer and want something done you might want to use a programming language that is widespread so you can get help easier, since everyone already understands that.
So you choose Christian magic, because like C/C++ everyone knows about it so you already have the basics ready for it.
But that also makes it easier for other people to understand your code, so hacking it might be easier.

You can then choose a more obscure language, it will be harder to do something but less people might be able to hack it.

Then you can to make your own language, but WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? WHY?
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:47   Link #974
Chaos2Frozen
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@Saishy

I think what Phibrizzo meant is that the entire magic system in general is rather complicated, and why I think this is because it doesn't follow the tradition system set by fantasy games (I'll argue that even Negima follows this system).

Kamachi talked about this in the Afterword of his very first volume. He wanted to do something different-

Quote:
The magicians in RPGs and such that can create balls of fire or revive the dead at the cost of some MP are quite convenient, because the term “magic” lets them do whatever they want. But (for the sake of argument) let’s assume magic actually existed. What kinds of people used magic throughout history? What kinds of rules exist behind the term "magic"? This all started when I typed “magician” and “actually exist” into a search engine in an attempt to answer those questions.

It came up with things like “how to control a black cat with silver vine powder” and “voodoo witch doctors used fugu poison to create zombies that had a state of apparent death”. I got interested when I realized that the workings of the occult seemed an awful lot like science.

Dengeki Bunko’s light novels treat magic like it's normal, so I thought that a novel that went deeper into the idea of magic might be a new idea.
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:19   Link #975
Saishy
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And just a note, I fucking love Negima magic system.

I actually don't know if I like it more or less than Index.
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:56   Link #976
Phibrizzo
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Sorry to confuse you the first part of my post was to explain spell intercept.

Well negima is the normal basic system but expanded (like the reason ice is the strongest type of magic), and the use of ancient languages. Slayers system if based on astral and material plane with different sources of power (Like Angels in ToAru... a bit like the idol system), mixed with the "chaos" words.
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Old 2012-07-24, 01:00   Link #977
judasmartel
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I just hope more esper types next time, then. Particularly Ice-types. And also, vampires.
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Old 2012-07-24, 01:33   Link #978
Kenju of the Right
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
And also, vampires.
For poor Himegami-chan
__________________

He believes.
Even though he’s tired and one leg’s in the coffin, he believes.
He believes in his right fist,
in the path that his weapon creates,
in the scene when his weapon brutally hits the enemy’s body,
that his victory will bring about a wonderful future.
Kamijou Touma’s actions are based on trust.-

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Old 2012-07-24, 20:16   Link #979
Chaos2Frozen
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I don't think we'll see many new espers, or rather many new esper abilities; Kamachi seems more incline to write about technology than physics. Plus there seem to be an underlining theme about the esper technology being outmatched by advancing new technologies.

Ergo, please look forward to the inevitable appearance of cyborg ninjas wielding Dark Matter blades at sonic speeds.
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Old 2012-07-24, 21:16   Link #980
Phibrizzo
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I don't think we'll see many new espers, or rather many new esper abilities; Kamachi seems more incline to write about technology than physics. Plus there seem to be an underlining theme about the esper technology being outmatched by advancing new technologies.

Ergo, please look forward to the inevitable appearance of cyborg ninjas wielding Dark Matter blades at sonic speeds.
Loli obasan cyborg ninjas wielding electromagnetic radars and darkmatter vibro blades at super sonic speeds... nice.
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