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Old 2012-07-23, 15:55   Link #1321
hoarfrost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikvod00 View Post
Collectivism and individualism are both important aspects of identity; I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. It's a balancing act, really. Sometimes citing the merits of the individual is insufficient to combat racism. That's because basically all Yuuya's mother would be doing is saying that her husband is individually a good person, even if he belongs to a group that's looked down upon. It's similar to saying "Oh, he's a Jap, but he's one of the good Japs" (i.e., exception to the rule). Who cares if an individual minority is considered equal to others if his own group is still treated like crap by society? It does nothing to stop prejudice against the group if you only care about the individuals. She wants her husband to seen as a good man anda Japanese person who has good characteristics like any other nationality. And the fact of the matter is that all (most) cultures, races, groups, nationalities, and etc. have noteworthy merits that others can admire and learn from (as well as negatives, of course).
But the whole problem with the anti-Japanese bias in the US was about Americans taking an action approved by a small proportion of people (Imperial Japanese leadership) and applying a characteristic of it to all of them. If we avoid doing so, there is really no need to point out an "exception to the rule", because the rule itself is of dubious validity.

If a positive generalization is valid than so too is a negative one. Seeing all groups as being composed of individuals with a wide distribution of characteristics (of course leaving room for some variation and overlap) solves the issue in the cleanest manner possible.

If on the other hand we take the collectivist approach, we are really no better than Yui who assumes that just because he is half Japanese, Yuuya should be attuned to "the Japanese mind" and chides him for not being. An individualist approach might say that due to his own unique circumstances, he should not be expected to conform to to any convention just because of his heritage.
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Old 2012-07-23, 15:55   Link #1322
Triple_R
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It might be funny if somebody did a Yuuya-focused MuvLuv AMV to Hulk Hogan's "Real American" theme song.

Once there's enough good anime content to fill it up with, anyway.
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Old 2012-07-23, 15:58   Link #1323
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i somehow hate how they over exaggerate american racism

if one wants to be american one can be american not you or me or anyone else can say anything bout it

yeah he has japaneses roots but that does not make him japanese since

A he was born in america
B he was raised in america
C HE WANTS/IS an american citizen

but somehow i hate yuuya for being himself since why not accept his japanese blood and be done with it and then from that point try to be a better person in an american way

i mean yeah sure he has japanese blood but what is stopping him being an american?
his hair? physique? blood relations? Prejudice of people?

all i say to those are BULLSH*T
You are what you are
and you make your self what you are gonig to be in the future
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:00   Link #1324
sikvod00
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
"You can't simulate BETA numbers, abilities and tactics!"

*Simulation proceeds to simulate BETA numbers, abilities and tactics*
No, you misunderstood me (or maybe I phrased it wrong?). Yui said that the simulation provides information about enemy numbers, abilities, and actions in advance. She's implying that in actual combat you don't have that advantage.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:04   Link #1325
orion
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It might be funny if somebody did a Yuuya-focused MuvLuv AMV to Hulk Hogan's "Real American" theme song.

Once there's enough good anime content to fill it up with, anyway.
Nah, we must use the official US Army theme song.

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Old 2012-07-23, 16:07   Link #1326
Enternal
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Maybe I wasn't clear or something.

Yuuya IS American. However he's also racially Japanese (that's what I mean by roots so I don't know what you mean by bullshit). If he wasn't, he would not have been bullied as a child for being part Japanese. Are you telling me he's not Japanese and 100% American? Now that's bull. He is mentally 100% American but racially he's not.

He should just accept that racially he's part Japanese but he's 100% American and be done with that. The problem with Yuuya is he's not accepting the fact that he's part Japanese. It's like you hate your hand just because it's does not function well and you decide to say "I don't have a hand". Ok that might be a bad analogy but can't think of a better analogy.

I'm also an Asian American. I was born and raised as an American so I identify myself as an American 100%. But racially I'm Asian. People also see me as an Asian first and then an American. So I just accept that I'm Asian because that's what I really am BUT I am also an American 100% in mind. What Yuuya seems to be doing is discarding everything about himself being part Japanese. He's discarding his very own self as person. You cannot discard yourself. You are what you are. He's an Japanese-American. He is pretty much currently having something of an identity crisis. He does not want to accept his Japanese side of him. The part that makes him who he is.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:10   Link #1327
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I take the difference in handling regarding the tsf as manual and automatic driving in regular cars, sure, an automatic car is easier to drive , but standar/manual driving gives you more options; an yuuya is a test pilot so he has to learn manual drive so he can test japanese tsfs as well.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:14   Link #1328
orion
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Originally Posted by Enternal View Post
Maybe I wasn't clear or something.

Yuuya IS American. However he's also racially Japanese (that's what I mean by roots so I don't know what you mean by bullshit). If he wasn't, he would not have been bullied as a child for being part Japanese. Are you telling me he's not Japanese and 100% American? Now that's bull. He is mentally 100% American but racially he's not.

He should just accept that racially he's part Japanese but he's 100% American and be done with that. The problem with Yuuya is he's not accepting the fact that he's part Japanese. It's like you hate your hand just because it's does not function well and you decide to say "I don't have a hand". Ok that might be a bad analogy but can't think of a better analogy.
It's that way with mixed race kids. They have to choose their identity. Yuuya's handicap is that he has an ethnic first name and he looks Japanese apparently. Granted it is easier to identify with the ethnic group that you look like but it's not always the case. He chose to identify with Caucasian. In his case, his mother should have changed his first name to an English one and be done with it so that he would have had an easier time growing up.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:16   Link #1329
technomo12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enternal View Post
Maybe I wasn't clear or something.

Yuuya IS American. However he's also racially Japanese (that's what I mean by roots so I don't know what you mean by bullshit). If he wasn't, he would not have been bullied as a child for being part Japanese. Are you telling me he's not Japanese and 100% American? Now that's bull. He is mentally 100% American but racially he's not.

He should just accept that racially he's part Japanese but he's 100% American and be done with that. The problem with Yuuya is he's not accepting the fact that he's part Japanese. It's like you hate your hand just because it's does not function well and you decide to say "I don't have a hand". Ok that might be a bad analogy but can't think of a better analogy.

I'm also an Asian American. I was born and raised as an American so I identify myself as an American 100%. But racially I'm Asian. People also see me as an Asian first and then an American. So I just accept that I'm Asian because that's what I really am BUT I am also an American 100% in mind. What Yuuya seems to be doing is discarding everything about himself being part Japanese. He's discarding his very own self as person. You cannot discard yourself. You are what you are. He's an Japanese-American. He is pretty much currently having something of an identity crisis. He does not want to accept his Japanese side of him. The part that makes him who he is.
I 100%
agree with this reasoning

and yuuya is acting like a freaking child at that
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:18   Link #1330
Keroko
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Originally Posted by sikvod00 View Post
No, you misunderstood me (or maybe I phrased it wrong?). Yui said that the simulation provides information about enemy numbers, abilities, and actions in advance. She's implying that in actual combat you don't have that advantage.
And that's why you train in simulations, no? I mean, really, these BETA don't really switch tactics or abilities. Once you've trained in the sims, the only unknown factor in real combat is numbers, because both the BETA's abilities and tactics are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by technomo12 View Post
I 100%
agree with this reasoning

and yuuya is acting like a freaking child at that
He's kept himself from lashing out against someone who was clearly taunting him to the point where even other people were wondering why he hadn't punched her yet. The other person meanwhile gets away with aforementioned taunting, insulting and racist remarks.

Who exactly is being the child here?
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:23   Link #1331
sikvod00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And that's why you train in simulations, no? I mean, really, these BETA don't really switch tactics or abilities. Once you've trained in the sims, the only unknown factor in real combat is numbers, because both the BETA's abilities and tactics are the same.
None of us are persuading the other, so let's just agree to disagree. You think the simulations are a pretty accurate measurement of real BETA combat and that Yui is possibly lying, and I don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
But the whole problem with the anti-Japanese bias in the US was about Americans taking an action approved by a small proportion of people (Imperial Japanese leadership) and applying a characteristic of it to all of them. If we avoid doing so, there is really no need to point out an "exception to the rule", because the rule itself is of dubious validity.

If a positive generalization is valid than so too is a negative one. Seeing all groups as being composed of individuals with a wide distribution of characteristics (of course leaving room for some variation and overlap) solves the issue in the cleanest manner possible.

If on the other hand we take the collectivist approach, we are really no better than Yui who assumes that just because he is half Japanese, Yuuya should be attuned to "the Japanese mind" and chides him for not being. An individualist approach might say that due to his own unique circumstances, he should not be expected to conform to to any convention just because of his heritage.
I really get what you're saying, especially about positive and negative generalizations being valid. But I'm an optimist who thinks that all groups have some common positive trait that others can admire and learn from, and the negatives should be ignored. But obviously not everyone thinks that way... To me, racism is fundamentally about seeing a group as inferior because of the negative. That's why what Yuuya's mother said didn't seem so off to me. I saw it as, "See, Japanese people have qualities that make them the equals of any other group!". Obviously when dealing with individuals, these generalizations could be shattered, and that's fine. Individuals should not be subject to these expectations. They're just general observations. Like I said, for me it's a balancing act.

Last edited by sikvod00; 2012-07-23 at 16:33.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:29   Link #1332
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Well, there's a clear difference between the brutality of the BETA in Episode 1 and 2 while in the simulation they didn't seem as threatening and moved pretty slowly even when Yuuya was surrounded. The BETA from the first 2 episodes would have tore him apart once he was surrounded and were shown to be able to run fast for a few seconds.

Like the BETA that quickly cuts that one girls TSF in half in seconds before anyone could act or see it coming.

So I doubt that Simulation is 100% accurate and seemed to be handicapping itself which makes sense since Yuuya was put in a mecha he has no idea how to pilot correctly.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:31   Link #1333
encia
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Originally Posted by Enternal View Post
Maybe I wasn't clear or something.

Yuuya IS American. However he's also racially Japanese (that's what I mean by roots so I don't know what you mean by bullshit). If he wasn't, he would not have been bullied as a child for being part Japanese. Are you telling me he's not Japanese and 100% American? Now that's bull. He is mentally 100% American but racially he's not.

He should just accept that racially he's part Japanese but he's 100% American and be done with that. The problem with Yuuya is he's not accepting the fact that he's part Japanese. It's like you hate your hand just because it's does not function well and you decide to say "I don't have a hand". Ok that might be a bad analogy but can't think of a better analogy.
Racially, Yuuya is a mix blood e.g Jeff Chiba Stearns i.e. http://www.canada.com/life/Mixed+rac...168/story.html

Spoiler for example of mix blood between British Father and Japanese Mother:

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-23 at 16:42.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:34   Link #1334
Destined_Fate
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Well, most Americans are mixed blood. What's Yuuya's issue is that he was raised to hate the Japanese by his surroundings and he looks and is associated as Japanese thus suffered for it. Thus he hates himself most of all, he's just venting on Yui because she's full Japanese and nothing he does can make him hate himself more for being part Japanese so Yui is his outlet since meeting her.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:37   Link #1335
orion
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Well, most Americans are mixed blood. What's Yuuya's issue is that he was raised to hate the Japanese by his surroundings and he looks and is associated as Japanese thus suffered for it. Thus he hates himself most of all, he's just venting on Yui because she's full Japanese and nothing he does can make him hate himself more for being part Japanese so Yui is his outlet since meeting her.
His mother should have changed his first name when she had the chance imo.

2010 Census states 2.9% self-reported in the US. Not the majority by a long shot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiracial_American
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:37   Link #1336
FRS
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Yes, telling a new pilot "I'm disappointed in you" in rather rude terms (kisama is a rather unfriendly term to use) at the first conversation you have with a person, and then proceeding to tell him what basically amounts to "you're not Japanese enough" is certainly going to endear someone to be grateful, and gosh how strange it is when he's not exactly grateful when an officer does her duty and pulls him out of a fire he had no way of knowing would be there with the exact same discontent she has shown so far.

Let's face the music here, the one who started this whole mess was not Yuuya. Yui was the one who began tossing insults here.
I have to disagree with you here, the fight started at the end of ep 3 when Yuuya went with the l33T 'merkin speech, he was shoot down in flames, maybe if Yui explained why it could have went better but i doubt it, he decided she was an enemy at this moment.

Moreover the way he spoke to her in front the squad ? that was some nice baiting at a superior, you snark at your superior (or anyone), you will not get much sympathies from me if you are not able to take what they will hurl back at you.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:50   Link #1337
technomo12
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And that's why you train in simulations, no? I mean, really, these BETA don't really switch tactics or abilities. Once you've trained in the sims, the only unknown factor in real combat is numbers, because both the BETA's abilities and tactics are the same.



He's kept himself from lashing out against someone who was clearly taunting him to the point where even other people were wondering why he hadn't punched her yet. The other person meanwhile gets away with aforementioned taunting, insulting and racist remarks.

Who exactly is being the child here?
then let me re correect my self

he is acting like a freaknig child over that fact thet he is somewhat in a racist mood

I all this trouble over being just half japanese

ueah sure childhood bullying and stuff but thats all in the past

but meh as we all know child hood trauma or stuff cant be forgotten easily

but the haughty bitch did not do some OVERLY exaggerated racist remark
or maybe to me that is not racist but something along the line of
plain insulting because he is complaining stuff like a child unlike japanese TSF pilots who trained with that TSF never did complain since japan is on the front line

and the way he talks to his superiors its like some EGOistic S.O.B. i mean if i was that superior i would INSULT him even more
and even during the briefing in ep 2 was it? he was already annoyed and calling her a Japaneses Doll

then again it might be just me
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:51   Link #1338
Enternal
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He's kept himself from lashing out against someone who was clearly taunting him to the point where even other people were wondering why he hadn't punched her yet. The other person meanwhile gets away with aforementioned taunting, insulting and racist remarks.

Who exactly is being the child here?
So let see what happened during two scenes in this episode.

Yuuya: A practice unit?
Yui: Correct. Until the Shiranui is operational, you will be piloting a Fubuki Type 97 practice TSF.
*Yuuya looks displeased
Yuuya to himself: Did this women even looked at my records?
Yui: You look disatsified.
Yuuya: I have not been given enough information to be disatisfied.
Yui: Tell me, is your attitude related to the project?
Yuuya: No Liutenance (said in a somewhat rude manner).
Yui: Is the problem with me?
Yuuya: Not at all (said in a rude manner again. Just look at how he acts why answering her questions.)
Yui: Let me tell you something. Your unpleasant attitude is disruptive. If you don't have a reason for it. Fix it.
Yuuya: Is that an order Liutenance? Or is it merely an order to satisfy a personal desire.
Yui: Whichever you prefer. But fix it.
Yuuya: I will try but I can't promise you.
Yui: According to the records, you're a second-generation Japanese.
*Yuuya looks upset
Yui: As a fellow member of the same race, Your haughty attitude is upsetting and an embarassedment to the Japanese.
Yuuya to himself: How dare she...
Yui: Make sure you read the manual for the Fubuki and understand it.

His friend even told him that it's not a bad idea to start to understand the Japanese mindset to be able to pilot the TSF. However since he's currently having issues with his own Japanese side, he was not willing to learn how they think so that he could pilot the TSF efficiently unlike the other pilots on his team which is why he was slowing down the other pilots during the simulation battle. Which leads into:

Yui: You're not used to the machine so you could not keep your Fubuki under control. That's partly forgivable. However you could have slowly descent in circle instead of barging straight in. (She said it in a very nice tone and manner. She wasn't mocking him either. Just giving him advice).
Yuuya: I'm sorry Lieutenant but this TSF is a piece of junk. (He said in a cocky arrogant manner)
Yuuya: *goes on to explain the problem with the machine which all makes sense considering the different purpose of the machine.
Yui: However this machine is no harder to control than any of the other Imperial TSF.
Yuuya: I find that hard to believe. (shows his cocky smile again)
Yui: *goes on about how other soldiers can easily use it. That means you're less inept than an Imperial trainee. You lack talent.
*Yuuya was shocked and upset.

In the first scene, he clearly starts the fight with Yui which after repeatedly offending her with his behavior, she said what she said. He was clearly upset about that incident and then took the incident to heart and acted badly again during the second scene in the episode. The whole time Yui never really displayed much emotions but it was clear she's offended by Yuuya. It was also clear at how rude he was since that's what the episode was trying to show by zooming onto his smiling face and how he answered to Yui questions.

Just tell me. If a superior officer is asking you questions, is that how you respond to them? Rudely and acting rudely with your arms and flailing your arms about? While at the same time smirking and what not?
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:53   Link #1339
DezoPenguin
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Bottom line, they're both acting like jackasses. Yuuya's anti-Japanese racism rooted in his own self-loathing is causing him to strut around and posture like an arrogant child in front of Yui rather than showing her the respect due a superior officer or dealing realistically with the problems he's having adjusting to the equipment. And Yui's contempt for Yuuya rooted in her own past war experience and her own pro-Japanese racism is causing her to deliberately treat him with scorn instead of valuing his abilities or cutting him any slack for problems that are not his fault.*

*Not being able to properly pilot a TSF he'd never trained in the style of, and being trapped by the Russians when he was an invited guest of one of their pilots (and frankly, probably didn't even realize he was going into Russian territory).

Basically, someone needs to whack them both upside the head with a tuna.
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Old 2012-07-23, 16:54   Link #1340
Wild Goose
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Tl;dr Yuuya and Yui are both being asses to each other.

Imagine what would happen if a white officer said to Yuuya, "You're an embarrassment to white people." But because it's Yui she slides.

I think it's quite obvious at this point that neither of them are keen on being in Alaska. Yui wants to kill BETA. Yuuya wants to gonback to Groom Lake. And I czn sympathise withh his relative lack of combat skill; he's a goddamned test pilot, he job is to push the envelope and check to make sure everything's working as it's supposed to.

Also, while he does have a bit of an attitude, it's not that different from your average fighter jock.

Also, Yui seems to have taken a level in jerkass. She seems to relish cutting down Yuuya at every turn, even when he raises legitimate issues with the Fubuki. I have to wonder how much of the problems she's having with Yuuya are the result of them getting off on the wrong foot. Maybe if she hadn't been such a hardass...
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