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Old 2012-07-23, 05:11   Link #29781
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Alright this is canon. Agreed?
Totally agreed.

I mean, KINZO x GENJI HAS ALWAYS BEEN CANON, RIGHT?!
I maintain that a hardcore Kinzo-based homolust just totally explains at least 60% of Genji's character to me.
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Old 2012-07-23, 05:24   Link #29782
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
WOAAAAHHHHH.

Alright this is canon. Agreed?
Hahaha, okay!!

So, new things we learned about the characters today:
Kinz˘ was called Kin-chan in his childhood.
Genji made the decisions when they were young (back in Taiwan).
Kinz˘ apparently wants everybody besides his wife ... poor woman
Kanon hates Gohda because he secretly wants to be as manly as him.
Gohda likes to show off and looks down on people who are not like him (d'uh as if we didn't know that )
Red Eye Kanon is creepy and into tickling!!
Battler and Will are unlikely to appear on the same gameboard.
Will is destined to be with Lion ... how cute
Lion's gender will forever remain a secret.
Lion is a versatile top...
Will is a versatile bottom...
Hideyoshi likes to run around in his underwear and screws everything that moves
Hideyoshi on Battler makes you puke
Rudolph never respected Krauss...d'uh│
Black Battler knows what Battler wants deep in his heart
Amakusa's response to possible rape: "He...cool!" ... so he was Eva during that scene in EP4!!
T˘ya's biggest fear is Black Battler being inside him....now that's actually an answer isn't it?!

And most of all two things:
1) Older men are the spice on your meat!
2) BATTLER IS ALWAYS BOTTOM!! hahahaha.wav
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Old 2012-07-23, 06:00   Link #29783
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As for a genuine thought, if Rudolf and Kyrie were the villains, or if anyone was a villain, why did they bring their children along? It is generally agreed that these murder theories involve a lot of planning
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Old 2012-07-23, 06:05   Link #29784
GoldenLand
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That TIP. Gosh. I wasn't expecting the TIP to be like that. Ange is creepy, treating her family like that. But I applaud Virgilia for her interest in ossan.

I'm not sure whether I ought to save a copy of that TIP so I can read it again and laugh, or whether I should pretend I never saw it and expunge it from my memory...

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Hum... how this would help? Just because he sustained genital injury this wouldn't turn him into a girl...

Plus I've always thought that, if they were to change Yasu's sex, then it would be pointless to also change his/her age.
Changing his/her sex would be... radical enough.
One can never be too careful with Kinzo. Or with Natsuhi. Natsuhi might well have been a much larger threat to bringing Yasu back to the island than Kinzo is. If she realised who Yasu was, there's a reasonable chance she would have gone nutso and tried to kill her again.

No, genital injury wouldn't turn a boy Yasu into a girl, but whoever was in charge of deciding her future might have thought that having sustained such an injury it was best to raise her as a girl, and probably to have her undergo sex reassignment surgery for that. This has happened a number of times to little boys in real life who have had genital injuries. I'm not saying that it's a good idea, but Genji or Nanjo or whoever might have thought at the time that it was the right thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Still is a medic in a god forsaken island where there aren't even ambulances qualified to such a thing? Something like that should have required specialized surgery at first, vaginoplasty later (and with the lack of a penis the only option would be to use part of the colon, not really a simple operation) and hormone therapy by the time Yasu became pubescent.

I wonder if something like that was ever done in Japan around that time or if Ryuukishi even thought this scenario, but the alternative would be to think that they said a retarded: "you lost your penis: you're a girl".
I'm not sure if Ryukishi even thought out the details to this. Perhaps it's one of the things he's put into the too-hard basket, like the fact rain doesn't factor into the murder mysteries at all. Eh, maybe I'm being too harsh on him: he has been intentionally vague about the sex of the baby Yasu, so there wasn't any opportunity to give details about things like reassignment.

I expect that if Yasu underwent reassignment surgery, it would have been in a proper hospital somewhere away from the island. Otherwise...well, ouch.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
As for a genuine thought, if Rudolf and Kyrie were the villains, or if anyone was a villain, why did they bring their children along? It is generally agreed that these murder theories involve a lot of planning
If it was Rudolf and Kyrie, Battler might have been there as their accomplice! As per Bern's game. I suppose the same could go for Eva and Hideyoshi bringing George, maybe even for Natsuhi and Krauss with Jessica.

The motive for them to commit all the murders would be a bigger problem.
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Old 2012-07-23, 07:27   Link #29785
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Amakusa's response to possible rape: "He...cool!"
This is definitely yet another reference to Hibari 13 from Higurashi which became popular precisely for his "cool" line. I suppose in the original text it's actually "クール" right?
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Old 2012-07-23, 07:35   Link #29786
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If it was Rudolf and Kyrie, Battler might have been there as their accomplice! As per Bern's game. I suppose the same could go for Eva and Hideyoshi bringing George, maybe even for Natsuhi and Krauss with Jessica.
Though the tea party didn't play that way, besides, we know Battler never killed anybody (well, we sort of know).

I am rereading the first novel, and apart from laughing at all the "Rosa is the purest of the siblings" (and yet the only real bad parent among them) irony, and noticing how the siblings probably didn't actually think the gold was real and just wanted to blackmail Krauss into admitting his fault or paying them (though this seems less certain), I have been looking to see if Jessica actually knew that Kinzo was dead. If she did then she plays it rather cool, yet sort of implies he is alive. However I seem to remember a convenient asthma attack that occurs later....
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Old 2012-07-23, 08:55   Link #29787
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I guess that a sex reassignment program is the only way to explain such thing without thinking Genji is nut or an asshole, in part because in that case it'd be probably Nanjo's idea, and in part because it was more justifiable. There's been several cases of infants being put under a sex reassignment program after the loss of their penis (most of the time due to a circumcision gone wrong), though the practice is heavily questioned by some and there's a famous case where it didn't work at all.
Two things:

1) Lion is fairly effeminate (but not feminine) in appearance and mannerisms. In English, he/she would presumably be portrayed as an androgynous is-he-or-is-she fashion that, like the Japanese, sort of plays up the uncertainty. So if indeed Lion is an imagining of what such a person would look like untouched by early tragedy, Lion would not exactly have been the most masculine male to begin with even if born that way.

2) There is another explanation besides "nut or asshole," which is lying. Even if the baby did exist, and even if the baby was indeed Beatrice-2's child, there is no evidence it actually lived. Yasu could be somebody else. Plus the baby could've, you know, not actually existed. Since we know basically nothing about Genji's motives to do anything we have no idea why any of the things that he did to Yasu were done. And we certainly can't know whether or why he did the things he's alleged to have done, because Yasu didn't even witness those.
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Old 2012-07-23, 10:12   Link #29788
Kealym
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I have been looking to see if Jessica actually knew that Kinzo was dead. If she did then she plays it rather cool, yet sort of implies he is alive. However I seem to remember a convenient asthma attack that occurs later....
This is a bit of a sore point.
On the one hand, Jessica is never, EVER implied to notice anything especially odd, and claims to prefer that Kinzo has isolated himself. Plus, in the grand scheme of things, she's almost as innocent as Godha, really.

The only reason you'd think she knew about it is a claim to common sense, 'cause she lived on the island, and not your live-in grandpa for two years is damned odd. but then, we also presumably give her a pass on noticing Shkanon shenaningans (assuming they happened in Prime) despite being THE person best in place to notice oddities.

Um, at best I'd try to say that, sort of like her parents, she's not exactly portrayed as a genius or anything.
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Old 2012-07-23, 12:40   Link #29789
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This is the main reason I don't like Yasu being born as a boy. Because we don't know Nanjo's how much knowledge Nanjo has in the medical field or at least I guess I missed it. But from what I remember he was just a small doctor nothing big. Also would he have even been able to perform the surgery in the first place. I guess though we don't know how injured Yasu was I mean she could've simply fell not very far like maybe Yasu was in the servant's arms till the very end or something. Anyone when I think of Yasu's injuries I think that she has a crushed uterus, one or two dents in her skull, probably some scars on her body among other things. Also if Yasu was born female I doubt the fall had anything to do with her lack of breasts or weak and small figure. I actually believe those were caused by the fact she is a child of incest which from what I read can result in the child being underdeveloped.

Also I really don't understand why people doubt Yasu being Beatrice-2's child who was pushed off the cliff. I mean it is never implied that it wasn't and I just don't see the basis of this claim.
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Old 2012-07-23, 12:42   Link #29790
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Two things:
2) There is another explanation besides "nut or asshole," which is lying. Even if the baby did exist, and even if the baby was indeed Beatrice-2's child, there is no evidence it actually lived. Yasu could be somebody else. Plus the baby could've, you know, not actually existed. Since we know basically nothing about Genji's motives to do anything we have no idea why any of the things that he did to Yasu were done. And we certainly can't know whether or why he did the things he's alleged to have done, because Yasu didn't even witness those.
Used to think this was the best scenario, right now I'm more content with the idea that writer Yasu is male but is having confusion (being a teen) about their sexuality and identity gender related and wrote Umineko during said confusion.
The idea that Yasu had to wear gradually bigger fake dress as she was growing up to keep up with the scam still looks ridiculous to me.

Edit: Adding to that, Beatrice as in arc 4 is fundamentally bothered by the question "who is she", I don't think that was explored much. It opens very large and nicely the door to question her past story as she seemingly does it herself. If we think of Umineko as being written by a writer who doesn't know if they are a man or women (in their heart) then I'm thinking this might make more sense.

Actually so much could make sense if we think Shannon never existed and Yasu has always been Kanon. I can see it more or less, the little child realizing he might be into guys after meeting Battler and having the lines he says make his heart melt. However he can never be certain of the real meaning of these words. Year later Jessica tries to date him but he rejects her in favor of George, another man. This would explain why George and Yasu's relation needs to be kept so secretly as well as possibly making a nice parallel of George/Kanon with Kinzo/Genji. I can see how trying to include these things into a story could shape it into something like Umineko, including the Beatrices' legends.



I'm also thinking like, shouldn't there be a sort of stand at one point?
10 tons of mysterious gold from Italy, 1 kilometer in diameter explosion crater, raising a child to wear gradually bigger fake breast, said being pretenting to be two people during the same work shift, jessica never noticed nor that person's employer, Kyrie's baby being stolen etc... We can find explanations for all of these, I guess. Doesn't change that all of that together sounds well like most fantasy stories are LESS insane (I have a really hard time if anything to think a fantasy story would pull out Shkanon in the same nonsensical way). So what I'm thinking is when something is too ridiculous, shouldn't we question it's very existence and the information that we have about it? As it stands Umineko is the ninja pirate zombie robot of Mystery.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-07-23 at 13:06.
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Old 2012-07-23, 14:17   Link #29791
Renall
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Also I really don't understand why people doubt Yasu being Beatrice-2's child who was pushed off the cliff. I mean it is never implied that it wasn't and I just don't see the basis of this claim.
Because the entire story is melodramatic and ridiculous to implausible extremes, and also it seems contradictory to Rosa's testimony.
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I'm also thinking like, shouldn't there be a sort of stand at one point?
10 tons of mysterious gold from Italy, 1 kilometer in diameter explosion crater, raising a child to wear gradually bigger fake breast, said being pretenting to be two people during the same work shift, jessica never noticed nor that person's employer, Kyrie's baby being stolen etc... We can find explanations for all of these, I guess. Doesn't change that all of that together sounds well like most fantasy stories are LESS insane (I have a really hard time if anything to think a fantasy story would pull out Shkanon in the same nonsensical way). So what I'm thinking is when something is too ridiculous, shouldn't we question it's very existence and the information that we have about it? As it stands Umineko is the ninja pirate zombie robot of Mystery.
All of those things can be doubted other than the crater, and while the proposed source of the crater is a bit silly it's not absurdly fantastical. "Some unexploded munitions exploded" is relatively mundane, ignoring the suspension of disbelief that there'd be so many and that they'd still function and so forth.

Everything else can be doubted because it's either irrelevant whether it was specifically true or not or it's implausible but not to the point that it ruins the story.

The mere fact the author presents a bunch of information doesn't mean we should believe it because he hasn't created doubt in his text. It might not be what he intended, of course... but screw what he intended.

EDIT: Also the "falling baby" story is doubtful because there are no less than three vaguely-remembered "falling incidents" in Umineko and I have a feeling somebody is choosing to conflate them or alter a single incident to be a different incident. We have a falling servant, falling Beatrice, and falling baby. Either these stories are getting scrambled along the way or Rokkenjima has ghastly safety standards and everyone on it has a propensity to fall to their deaths.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2012-07-23, 18:44   Link #29792
Asuka0NK
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Well when it comes to an island isolated from everything you don't have a whole ton of accidental deaths that could be possible like you would in the city or something. Also Ryukishi seems to keep accidental deaths to falling.
Yukie in Higurashi fell
Yasu fell
The servant fell
Beatrice fell
Anyway yeah there aren't many ways besides falling to accidentally kill someone on Rokkenjiima. Also I don't see how the stories contradict eachother

Beatrice was born and kept in Kuwadorian
Kinzo raped her and got her pregnant
Beatrice gave birth
Beatrice met Rosa
Beatrice fell and died.
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:02   Link #29793
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This is the main reason I don't like Yasu being born as a boy. Because we don't know Nanjo's how much knowledge Nanjo has in the medical field or at least I guess I missed it. But from what I remember he was just a small doctor nothing big. Also would he have even been able to perform the surgery in the first place. I guess though we don't know how injured Yasu was I mean she could've simply fell not very far like maybe Yasu was in the servant's arms till the very end or something.
So, I'll take this moment to mention that we perhaps give Nanjo too much credit,s sometimes. In Natsuhi's version of events, both the baby and the servant SURVIVED the fall, and we're taken to a hospital, after all. And they presumably died on the way, or soon after arriving.

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We have a falling servant, falling Beatrice, and falling baby. Either these stories are getting scrambled along the way or Rokkenjima has ghastly safety standards and everyone on it has a propensity to fall to their deaths.
So, totally unrelated. I was reading Wuthering Heights, and when little blonde, socially isolated Catherine II wandered off to explore some rocky crags that her father was concerned she'd fall from, I was all "Welp I see where THIS is going. Witches."
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:15   Link #29794
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So, totally unrelated. I was reading Wuthering Heights, and when little blonde, socially isolated Catherine II wandered off to explore some rocky crags that her father was concerned she'd fall from, I was all "Welp I see where THIS is going. Witches."
Well, we've got Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. Wuthering Heights and Witches isn't a bad next step.
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:45   Link #29795
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Well when it comes to an island isolated from everything you don't have a whole ton of accidental deaths that could be possible like you would in the city or something. Also Ryukishi seems to keep accidental deaths to falling.
Yukie in Higurashi fell
Yasu fell
The servant fell
Beatrice fell
Anyway yeah there aren't many ways besides falling to accidentally kill someone on Rokkenjiima. Also I don't see how the stories contradict eachother
Nobody said they contradict each other. But it's not realistic that all these people fell and hurt themselves or are assumed to have fallen and died at different times in the story. It's both very silly, and it's lazy writing on Ryukishi's part because it's too convenient. If you tie it all to one event and have rumors like the one with the falling servant spring off the original story then it's little more meaningful instead of slapstick.

on the other hand it's very true that falling to your death is very common way to die (or almost die) in fiction.

I don't even need to list examples for that. it's everywhere. watch a few disney movies to see what I mean. Or if you're a mystery fan. Sherlock Holmes.
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:52   Link #29796
Asuka0NK
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Well at least he didn't make it happen the same way such as accidental falling I mean it all makes sense at least. How to kill someone on an island quick and to make sure no one finds them. Push them off a cliff. Besides it only happened two times and different circumstances both times.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:02   Link #29797
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I'm also thinking like, shouldn't there be a sort of stand at one point?
10 tons of mysterious gold from Italy, 1 kilometer in diameter explosion crater, raising a child to wear gradually bigger fake breast, said being pretenting to be two people during the same work shift, jessica never noticed nor that person's employer, Kyrie's baby being stolen etc... We can find explanations for all of these, I guess. Doesn't change that all of that together sounds well like most fantasy stories are LESS insane (I have a really hard time if anything to think a fantasy story would pull out Shkanon in the same nonsensical way). So what I'm thinking is when something is too ridiculous, shouldn't we question it's very existence and the information that we have about it? As it stands Umineko is the ninja pirate zombie robot of Mystery.
Undoubtely Ryukishi went overboard with the highly improbable stuffs, expecially considering it's a mystery and people try to find a solution that sounds not just possible but also probable while in certain cases it's implied the right solution is the improbable one.

... sometimes I think the reason why Ryukishi doesn't want to reveal the complete solution to Umineko it's not because he doesn't have one but because he realized that's one so unlikely readers would find hard to accept it.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:18   Link #29798
Asuka0NK
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I do feel that if Ryukishi reveals the truth the fanbase will get into a frenzy over the truth and how stupid it is and un thought out and how Ryukishi sucks or some other stupid crap. Or at least the Youtube Fanbase will.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:21   Link #29799
AuraTwilight
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The Youtube Fanbase still hasn't caught on to Shkanon or Author Theory. Who cares what they think?
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Old 2012-07-23, 22:15   Link #29800
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Nobody said they contradict each other. But it's not realistic that all these people fell and hurt themselves or are assumed to have fallen and died at different times in the story. It's both very silly, and it's lazy writing on Ryukishi's part because it's too convenient. If you tie it all to one event and have rumors like the one with the falling servant spring off the original story then it's little more meaningful instead of slapstick.
That's still nothing. The worst part is in Higurashi Tatarigoroshi

Spoiler for Higurashi:


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
... sometimes I think the reason why Ryukishi doesn't want to reveal the complete solution to Umineko it's not because he doesn't have one but because he realized that's one so unlikely readers would find hard to accept it.


Well one thing is certain at least that there's no doubt that Ryuukishi realized that the readers would find it hard to accept his solutions.
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