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Old 2012-07-23, 19:21   Link #1381
encia
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
His mother should have changed his first name when she had the chance imo.

2010 Census states 2.9% self-reported in the US. Not the majority by a long shot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiracial_American
On the same link


There is evidence that an accounting by genetic ancestry would produce a higher number
...
While many Americans may be technically multi-racial, they often do not know it or do not identify so culturally, any more than they maintain all the differing traditions of a variety of national ancestries


You then have a scenario like black parents giving birth to white-baby i.e. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...hite-baby.html
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:23   Link #1382
orion
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Originally Posted by encia View Post
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There is evidence that an accounting by genetic ancestry would produce a higher number
...
While many Americans may be technically multi-racial, they often do not know it or do not identify so culturally, any more than they maintain all the differing traditions of a variety of national ancestries
It's still not the majority. And... a lot of us actually do know our ancestry. Loads of registries exist to do the research. Our ancestry is something to be proud of.
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:27   Link #1383
shadow1296
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True. Should he have continued his rudeness towards her then? He could have stopped it with his attitude and perhaps their relationship would have turn better. However, he took her bad initial comment and use that as a way to continue to be rude to her over and over again. In other words, he let the word of a superior officer gets to him and then then repeated offend her with his attitude. If that is the case, then he's no better than she is.
yeah he could have stopped it if he didnt have that kind past where he was being picked on for being half japanese, so he already had resentment there, then to have japanese woman come and just bitch at him when he had not wronged her at all, let me asked you this if you were in his shoes with his past would u have let it go
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:32   Link #1384
kari-no-sugata
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Yuuya vs Yui, round 2...

I suspect this is going to run and run, but here's my thoughts...

In ep 3, we see Yuuya having to deal with some new teammates and despite "Chobi" being such a brat he managed to handle things okay. So clearly Yuuya does not have general problems dealing with people. On a related note, we see Yui deal with her potential rival in ep 1 okay - the biggest problem we have in terms of analysing Yui in general after the time-skip is we see almost nothing of her interacting with anyone other than Yuuya.

My general impression of Yuuya is that he is unable to rationally deal with being half-Japanese himself - he can't even take a joke from a friend. So when dealing with any Japanese person I would expect him to behave worse than with a non-Japanese person: acting paranoid, irrationally, seeing things in the worst possible light etc...

He doesn't explicitly say this but Yuuya seems to have a particular problem in ep 4 with being asked to use a trainee unit - he's a test pilot so naturally sees a trainee unit as being beneath him. The thing is though, Yui was exactly right to do this - he felt very insulted at the time but later agrees it was for the best. Not that he shows any inclination of thanking Yui or telling her she was right all along or the like. However, he still seems to think the unit is defective or worried about it malfunctioning before finally seeming to accept that it's actually behaving how it was designed to and so concludes that it's junk. Never mind that his conclusion contradicts recorded history it seems - there's no indication I've seen that Japan is considered to have such poor machines.

Again, this isn't to say that Yuuya is stupid or something. Just that he can't deal with Japanese stuff rationally. It doesn't help that for nearly everyone he's too Japanese and that for Yui he's not Japanese enough.

Going back to Yui: on the positive side, she kept trying to help him - she didn't have to help him get up to speed with the trainee unit, or give him tactical advise on how best to use it in combat or save him from the Russians. If she really considered him a hopeless cause she could have left him to rot and hope he becomes "unfit for duty" or the like and so get a replacement. She didn't start any of her conversations with Yuuya in a confrontational way that I can see, either by tone or by her words. In their first talk, she tries to get him to explain himself but he just acts foolish - I get the impression that she doesn't understand his attitude at all and maybe that's what prompted her to ask about his nationality (maybe hoping he'd open up a bit). Since Yuuya is being so uncooperative it makes it very hard for her to deal with him properly.

On the negative side: well, her personality isn't helping - she always keeps her professional mask on around Yuuya and hasn't tried to show him a more friendly side that we've seen (though we do see her being a bit more normal in the brief scene with her and Inia in ep 3). She didn't need to say he's an embarrassment to the Japanese - he was really being an embarrassment to everyone, including America. She could have made more rational arguments pointing out flaws in his reasoning. She didn't have to lash at him so harshly. She could have tired to discuss things in advance and get him to agree things rather than just ordering him. She could have tried dealing with him in a more casual setting or through someone else - ie try talking to others to try to determine the cause of his problems.

Overall, I would say Yuuya is mostly at fault for causing the problems in the first place (I think he would deal with other Japanese people similarly) but Yui is at fault for not resolving it (she's re-enforcing his prejudices more than she's defusing them). Given the context of their situation though, I would say that Yuuya is being very unprofessional and quite childish at times while Yui is mostly being quite professional.
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:33   Link #1385
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Originally Posted by shadow1296 View Post
yeah he could have stopped it if he didnt have that kind past where he was being picked on for being half japanese, so he already had resentment there, then to have japanese woman come and just bitch at him when he had not wronged her at all, let me asked you this if you were in his shoes with his past would u have let it go
So are you giving him a free pass to continue to do what he did? Are you saying he can go ahead and continue to be a rude prick to a superior officer just because he has a bad past (and in this case related to his superior officer's racial background)?

If I was in his shoes, I would let it go. I can't let my feelings and past cloud my behavior towards a superior officer. Now if she keep repeatedly offending me then there is a limit. However here Yuuya is now the one repeated offending her with his attitude. Not helping with the situation.

It's pretty clear. Yuuya does a good job with everyone. However anything related to the Japanese and he would "break" down which is understandable. That is his weakness. If he can't overcome that weakness, he will be a problem because he is now working the with the Japanese himself.
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:44   Link #1386
grevierr
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Guys you need to stop breaking the fifth wall. Don't assume whats shown on screen is everything, and dont think what we see is made known to all the characters.

At what point is there a conversation where Yui is made to know about Yuuya's past? She can only tell he is of Japanese descent, brought up in America. Nothing more and nothing less. She made the assumption that he was brought up with knowledge of Japanese culture values, which was her first mistake, since assuming makes an ass out of-u-and -me. Of course, having a surbordinate who shows hostility from the start doesn't help matters.
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Old 2012-07-23, 19:51   Link #1387
Enternal
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Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
Guys you need to stop breaking the fifth wall. Don't assume whats shown on screen is everything, and dont think what we see is made known to all the characters.

At what point is there a conversation where Yui is made to know about Yuuya's past? She can only tell he is of Japanese descent, brought up in America. Nothing more and nothing less. She made the assumption that he was brought up with knowledge of Japanese culture values, which was her first mistake, since assuming makes an ass out of-u-and -me. Of course, having a surbordinate who shows hostility from the start doesn't help matters.
Damn you brought up a good point as well. I completely forgot that we as viewers know about Yuuya's past. Not everyone else inside knows. But yes assumptions is always a pain...
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:23   Link #1388
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Damn you brought up a good point as well. I completely forgot that we as viewers know about Yuuya's past. Not everyone else inside knows. But yes assumptions is always a pain...
an american is coming across childish in an argument against a japanese in a show directed by a japanese targeting japanese audience

talk about other things you have missed

if you want a less biased presentation, read the manga. so very surprisingly, the manga ended early possibly because it didn't summon enough audience interest.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:26   Link #1389
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
However, he still seems to think the unit is defective or worried about it malfunctioning before finally seeming to accept that it's actually behaving how it was designed to and so concludes that it's junk. Never mind that his conclusion contradicts recorded history it seems - there's no indication I've seen that Japan is considered to have such poor machines.
Actually, this is a very rational way of dealing with things for Yuuya. Remember, Yuuya is a test pilot. It's his job to fly stuff and find things that are broken so that people can fix them, so it's only natural that the first thing he does when a machine doesn't listen to what the pilot says is to, well, look for what's broken. Once he concluded that everything was Working As Intended, he went into test pilot phase two: Figure out why this thing is handling like a drunken elephant on crack and report back so that the designers can take note and work on ways fix it.

Which he did. Very swiftly and efficiently. Although the presentation of his findings was lacking in subtlety, he pointed out not not just the problems the machine has, but also what is causing the problems. And the best part? He was right too. Not once were these problems denied. Indeed, the retaliations confirms their existence. Yes, Yui threw back at him that any Japanese knows how to overcome the mechs flaws, but again, being able to overcome the flaws of a vehicle does not change that the flaws are still present. Imagine how much more effective the Japanese defense could be if the pilots could focus less on fighting their own machine, and more on fighting the BETA.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:33   Link #1390
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Actually, this is a very rational way of dealing with things for Yuuya. Remember, Yuuya is a test pilot. It's his job to fly stuff and find things that are broken so that people can fix them, so it's only natural that the first thing he does when a machine doesn't listen to what the pilot says is to, well, look for what's broken. Once he concluded that everything was Working As Intended, he went into test pilot phase two: Figure out why this thing is handling like a drunken elephant on crack and report back so that the designers can take note and work on ways fix it.

Which he did. Very swiftly and efficiently. Although the presentation of his findings was lacking in subtlety, he pointed out not not just the problems the machine has, but also what is causing the problems. And the best part? He was right too. Not once were these problems denied. Indeed, the retaliations confirms their existence. Yes, Yui threw back at him that any Japanese knows how to overcome the mechs flaws, but again, being able to overcome the flaws of a vehicle does not change that the flaws are still present. Imagine how much more effective the Japanese defense could be if the pilots could focus less on fighting their own machine, and more on fighting the BETA.
i would argue those are not necessarily flaws. The US's machines are design to fight other Human pilot machines while Japanese's design is base on Fighting Betas. What is a flaw in a Human vs Human fight could be exactly what is needed against Betas
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:38   Link #1391
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i would argue those are not necessarily flaws. The US's machines are design to fight other Human pilot machines while Japanese's design is base on Fighting Betas. What is a flaw in a Human vs Human fight could be exactly what is needed against Betas
I'm sorry, but while you might make an argument for the emphasis on maneuverability, an engine with low power that is only effective at certain speeds which the engine also has trouble maintaining is not a quirk for fighting BETA, it's a clear flaw.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:45   Link #1392
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It could be that Yuuya's critique is a mix of legitimate complaints and not understanding the machine. The aforementioned engine issues are a definite disadvantage for instance, but perhaps the greater control sensitivity helps in the melee combat that seems to be a key part of Japanese anti-Beta tactics.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:48   Link #1393
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Actually, balance is pretty darn important for swordfighting, and yet the focus on maneuverability sacrifices just that.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:49   Link #1394
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'm sorry, but while you might make an argument for the emphasis on maneuverability, an engine with low power that is only effective at certain speeds which the engine also has trouble maintaining is not a quirk for fighting BETA, it's a clear flaw.
And I still don't see where any of that is identified as a legitimate after-action assessment by a trained test pilot using his skill as a test pilot rather than Yuuya just dicking around and refusing to admit that he could possibly be lacking in the training necessary to use the thing the way it was intended. When the episode begins with Yuuya finding that the TSF handles...well, "like a drunken elephant on crack" was a good description...and his own friend's response was "You need to think with a Japanese mind" rather than "Yeah, this thing's crap, but deal with it," it seems pretty well defined that we're meant to understand the situation as being Yuuya's problem, not that the TSF has grotesque flaws.

tl;dr, when Yuuya complains about the TSF's performance, I believe he's greatly exaggerating its flaws to cover for his own ego and unwillingness to admit that something Japanese can have virtues.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:57   Link #1395
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And yet, when he comes with objective reasons as to why the mech is crap, not just "it's crap, what's wrong with it" but objective stuff like "the engine has low power, is only effective at certain speeds and has trouble maintaining it" (which, by the way, is stuff that you can notice after one or two drives. Car shows do it all the time.) no objection is raised, and he is told to just deal with it. That is where the legitimacy is. Yui basically saying ""Yes, you're right. But our pilots can handle it, so what's the problem?"
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:02   Link #1396
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The engine with low power but high sensitivity allows the user to move in the direction that they wanted without a sudden overshooting of the movement. Fits with the way the Japanese were fighting against the BETAs. If the unit have high sensitivity with high output, if the pilot wants to move 1 inch, the unit end up moving 100 inch. Not what he had in mind. Instead, the pilot move one inch, the lower output of the engine also make the unit move one inch. At least... that's what I think.

When Yuuya explains the "weaknesses" of the units, it shows that he was able to find out but those weakness are inherent due to the fighting style of the Japanese. Which is why Yui would respond that the other Imperial trainee could handle it because that's how they fight. Yuuya disagree which Yui then in way imply that although Yuuya found out the weaknesses of the unit, he still haven't figure out why they are there and in a bigger picture, still haven't change his mindset to that of the Japanese when piloting these units just like his friend had said so before. Which is pretty clear in how he wasn't able to fight well compared to the others who tried to understand the units and how the Japanese fight in them.

It's like using a handgun and pointing out that a handgun is low power, does not have high accuracy, and can't shoot far but then continue to use it as if it's a sniper rifle. Those are inherit weaknesses of a handgun as it is not meant for long distance high powered shot. In this case, Yuuya figured out the inherent weaknesses but still haven't found out why and how the unit is to be used. His friend was very right. "You need to have the mindset of the Japanese to use these units due to how they think and fight in them".
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:08   Link #1397
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And yet, when he comes with objective reasons as to why the mech is crap, not just "it's crap, what's wrong with it" but objective stuff like "the engine has low power, is only effective at certain speeds and has trouble maintaining it" (which, by the way, is stuff that you can notice after one or two drives. Car shows do it all the time.) no objection is raised, and he is told to just deal with it. That is where the legitimacy is. Yui basically saying ""Yes, you're right. But our pilots can handle it, so what's the problem?"
Shutting up now because I spoiled myself right into losing the argument. And now can't say why. *facepalm*
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:18   Link #1398
grevierr
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
And I still don't see where any of that is identified as a legitimate after-action assessment by a trained test pilot using his skill as a test pilot rather than Yuuya just dicking around and refusing to admit that he could possibly be lacking in the training necessary to use the thing the way it was intended. When the episode begins with Yuuya finding that the TSF handles...well, "like a drunken elephant on crack" was a good description...and his own friend's response was "You need to think with a Japanese mind" rather than "Yeah, this thing's crap, but deal with it," it seems pretty well defined that we're meant to understand the situation as being Yuuya's problem, not that the TSF has grotesque flaws.

tl;dr, when Yuuya complains about the TSF's performance, I believe he's greatly exaggerating its flaws to cover for his own ego and unwillingness to admit that something Japanese can have virtues.
In this case, Yuuya does have a legitimate compliant that the TSFs are crap compared to TSFs of the Line, because the Type-97 Fubuki is a training TSF, with lower output thrusters and performance. Its mainly used since it can take a beating from trainees making mistakes. Please check out the wiki for history.

The Type-94, which it was derived from, on the other hand, was considered to be the world's first 3rd Gen TSF. This is the TSF that was shown at the end of the episode. Though it still has lower power to weight ratio than American TSFs, the focus of the unit is on maneuverability using parts of the body as aerodynamics assistance, which most other countries outside of america adopted. Also, lower output does not automatically mean lower combat ability. It also means lower fuel consumption, lower need for maintenance, and lower cost and time for production overall. Its a generic TSF specialized for fighting BETA(contradictory oxymoron, i know, like military intelligence), unlike the F-22 which is TSF vs TSF combat specialized.
Spoiler for TSF combat:


Quote:
Originally Posted by jtstellar View Post
an american is coming across childish in an argument against a japanese in a show directed by a japanese targeting japanese audience

talk about other things you have missed

if you want a less biased presentation, read the manga. so very surprisingly, the manga ended early possibly because it didn't summon enough audience interest.
If you are against a Japanese animation promoting Japanese values, why are you bothering then?

And while the manga shows parts that are not shown in the anime, the same can be said of the anime, though anime wise its tainted by the director, since its not following the script directly by the Lord of Despair.
http://muvluv.wikia.com/wiki/Yoshimune_Kouki

I will personally wait for the VN to be release to form an opinion. Unless someone who has read the LNs have a third POV?
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Last edited by grevierr; 2012-07-23 at 21:57.
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Old 2012-07-23, 22:11   Link #1399
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
It seem that you're giving Yuuya a free pass, Yui actually went easy on him. Yui could have severely punished Yuuya for the amount of disrespect he has shown her, his superior officer. Instead she rightly gave him a tongue lashing since he was at fault here and could have cost his team their lives.
No, I'm not. Both of them are being jackasses to each other, and are being rude, and are more than happy to snipe away at each other and erode team morale by their mutual dislike and belligerence.

Furthermore, any disciplinary actions ought to be taken by Ibrahim. While Yui is of a higher rank to Yuuya, it is not stated clearly whether she's actually in the chain of command, or attached to Argos flight as an observer/XFJ project supervisor - if it's the latter, she's not in his chain of command and cannot discipline him. She can however, request Ibrahim to do that, though it would be his final call.

That said, Yui is a pot while Yuuya is a kettle, and both of them are black. And need slapping with a tuna and a time out.

Or this is all building up towards angrysex in which case okay, fine, whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i would argue those are not necessarily flaws. The US's machines are design to fight other Human pilot machines while Japanese's design is base on Fighting Betas. What is a flaw in a Human vs Human fight could be exactly what is needed against Betas
... you do realise that underpowered engines in the F-14A led to compressor stall accidents, including that which famously killed Goose?

For a training unit, underpowered engines are fine, I supposed. But not in a frontline combatant. There are times when you need that speed.

Then again, part of Yuuya's problem is that he's coming from an F-15/F-22 background, in which both of those units have power to weight ratios exceeding 1:1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
In this case, Yuuya does have a legitimate compliant that the TSFs are crap compared to TSFs of the Line, because the Type-97 Fubuki is a training TSF, with lower output thrusters and performance. Its mainly used since it can take a beating from trainees making mistakes. Please check out the wiki for history.

The Type-94, which it was derived from, on the other hand, was considered to be the world's first 3rd Gen TSF. This is the TSF that was shown at the end of the episode. Though it still has lower power to weight ratio than American TSFs, the focus of the unit is on maneuverability using parts of the body as aerodynamics assistance, which most other countries outside of america adopted. Also, lower output does not automatically mean lower combat ability. It also means lower fuel consumption, lower need for maintenance, and lower cost and time for production overall. Its a generic TSF specialized for fighting BETA(contradictory oxymoron, i know, like military intelligence), unlike the F-22 which is TSF vs TSF combat specialized.
Spoiler for TSF combat:
Isn't the Shiranui at the end the Phase 1 Shiranui Second testbed?

As for Yuuya and the Fubuki, it's like an F-15 pilot IRL suddenly going to a T-4. Of course he's going to feel it's crap; he just went from an agile fighter with a 1.7:1 thrust to weight ratio that can accelerate in a ninety degree vertical climb to a subsonic trainer.

Thing is, while the Shiranui is a good design, and the Fubuki is probbably quite good once you get the hang of it, Yuuya brings up a very good point: American doctrine focuses on TSFs and planes that are easy to learn to fly, so that you can spend more time on the warfighting and other aspects. When you have to constantly worry about your machine, in addition to fighting... that's not ideal. F-4 crews who transitioned to the teen fighters never looked back, because you have a machine with both superior performance and it's easier to fly and manage compared to your old ride.
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Old 2012-07-23, 22:19   Link #1400
orion
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On the same link

You then have a scenario like black parents giving birth to white-baby i.e. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...hite-baby.html
The article didn't mention a DNA confirmation of parenthood. Besides, The Sun is a tabloid.
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