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Old 2012-07-22, 15:37   Link #121
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
I don't suppose the mechanics of it all have been explained in relation to the Shinigami. Aren't Minato's, Kushina's, and half the Kyuubi's chakra with the Shinigami?
not kushina's, but also add in the first 3 hokages and orochimaru's arms.

and that's just the characters we know about. given that we have seen a bunch of new characters from the past in this mass edo-tensei, i wouldn't be surprised to see something or someone new get unsealed from the reaper in addition to those we know. just a possibility
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Old 2012-07-22, 15:44   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Jpmartinez View Post
I wonder if the truth that sasuke is looking for will relate everyone somehow ( edo-madara, Tobi, and Orochimaru) It just seems to me that kishi is completing a circle of powerful yet mysterious villains. Does anyone get the same impression?
They were all after the power and knowledge of the sage of 6 paths, what differs is how they intend to use that power. Suigetsu tells us that with what he discovered they could rule the world, so it's probably related to the sage since all ultimate powers come from him in one way or another, be it ultimate chakra of the 10-tails or ultimate eye powers (sharingan,rinnegan). Tobi also said that Naruto and Sasuke will fight as the younger and older sons of the sage, so i guess both Sasuke and Naruto's powers and knowledge will converge towards that. In the end the manga is about Naruto and Sasuke, so Tobi,Madara and Orochi and all the others will then become secondary characters. In the past i expected that the Naruto vs Sasuke battle won't be the final battle, but right now it seems that it's more probable than other choices.

Then we have Naruto who is meant to be the next sage who will either bring the destruction of the world or a better version of it. In this chapter we see how the 10-tails is said to end the world, so it seems Naruto sometimes in the future will have temporarily the power of the 10-tails so that he can make the choice. I think it won't be now, right now Tobi has an imperfect 10-tails but Naruto also has the chakra of all those demons. Almost all, since he does not have the chakra of the 1-tails so i assume he will probably have the power to disrupt Tobi's jutsu but will not have the power to take over this thing and make his choice. I guess Kishimoto will only show a glimpse of what will be possible for Naruto and then interrupt the whole thing, as he did in other cases (most recently showing the perfect-Susano just for a moment). I mean right now there's not much of a choice, Naruto would not end the world. But if he has to choose for example at the end of his fight against Sasuke, after Sasuke killed his friends (Sakura,Kakashi,...) and he killed Sasuke in the end, in that case Naruto might be tempted to choose to end this world and bring everybody's soul into one entity and thus end all the pain that Naruto and the others had to suffer from.

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Old 2012-07-22, 19:31   Link #123
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i'm more inclined to believe that obito is closely related to madara given the similarity between kakashi's and tobi's MS techniques. it makes sense in obito theory as well since madara would have had to know that obito had that latent ability before he chose him as a vessel.
I'm more inclined to believe sasuke/itachi are related to Madara...obito in my mind fits as a descendent of izuna, the forgotten uchiha brother who sacrificed his eyes. In fact I would like it better if it were an izuna possessed obito body, but whatever. Thanks for the discussion.
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Old 2012-07-23, 03:37   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
No no it's ok, the Tobi identity is a big part of this chapter, I meant that if I was going to make a long in depth answer about it I'd rather use the dedicated thread rather than answer you in this one.
Understood .

Now on the topic, i have another theory. it is kinda far-fetched but what if Tobi is Orochimaru's clone or creation? It would solve ( at least some what) the whole mystery about as how he knew about them both( kakashia and guy). Also Orochimaru was there when Jiraya first met pain. Maybe eventually Tobi split from Orochimaru or maybe he lost control of it. Unlikely but just thought i would mention it.
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Old 2012-07-23, 10:10   Link #125
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Originally Posted by mahbod View Post
there is no way obito is tobi/madara due to the fact that, in the kakashi gaiden we see the fourth and obito and kakashi at a young age, then obito dies right, then when kushina tells the story of minato vs madara we also see gai and kakashi walking/talking how ever they look older, but not fully grown... and then we see fourth vs tobi and he doesnt look like a person to be kakashi age nor does he sound like it, and the knowledege he contains is overwhelming..
If Tobi isn't Obito (In some form) I am of the impression that he at least has Obito's other eye. We have seen that each sharingan can have different unique abilities. Kakashi's eye, which came from Obito, has the ability to teleport objects to "another dimension". We see this same/similar ability in Tobi's sharingan. You also only ever see Tobi use his right eye, the same eye Obito kept (yes he was crushed under that rock, but we don't know that the eye was destroyed). Coincidence?
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Old 2012-07-23, 11:35   Link #126
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Originally Posted by 323Familia View Post
If Tobi isn't Obito (In some form) I am of the impression that he at least has Obito's other eye. We have seen that each sharingan can have different unique abilities. Kakashi's eye, which came from Obito, has the ability to teleport objects to "another dimension". We see this same/similar ability in Tobi's sharingan. You also only ever see Tobi use his right eye, the same eye Obito kept (yes he was crushed under that rock, but we don't know that the eye was destroyed). Coincidence?
I agree, i have no doubt that Tobi's right eye belonged to Obito. What i want to know is why Tobi was always covering the left side of his face. When he fought with Konan, we saw that he had another Sharingan there, and used Izanagi, which took away that eye.

And when he took off his mask to show Sasuke his identity, he was hit by Amaterasu, went into the shadow, then came back without a scratch. I assume he used Izanagi there too but what did he sacrifice.
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Old 2012-07-23, 12:20   Link #127
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What i want to know is why Tobi was always covering the left side of his face. When he fought with Konan, we saw that he had another Sharingan there, and used Izanagi, which took away that eye.
i think he covered his other sharingan for 2 reasons. first off, only his right eye has MS (Obito's) so that's all he really needs in most situations. the left sharingan is just a normal one probably from the uchiha massacre. secondly, it's a tactic to hide it from possible opponents. for instance, konan didn't know he had another sharingan so it wasn't part of her calculations when she prepared to fight him. not that she would have known about izanagi, but someone like itachi would have known and probably prepared for it, if they ever had to fight. it's like an ace up his sleeve.

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And when he took off his mask to show Sasuke his identity, he was hit by Amaterasu, went into the shadow, then came back without a scratch. I assume he used Izanagi there too but what did he sacrifice.
i assume he just sacrificed another normal sharingan and replaced it with one from his wall of eyes. this just adds to my previous thought that itachi didn't know he had a second eye there and didn't prepare for it when he placed amaterasu inside sasuke to kill tobi. tobi says at that time: "even itachi didn't know everything about me"
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Old 2012-07-23, 12:32   Link #128
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i think he covered his other sharingan for 2 reasons. first off, only his right eye has MS (Obito's) so that's all he really needs in most situations. the left sharingan is just a normal one probably from the uchiha massacre. secondly, it's a tactic to hide it from possible opponents. for instance, konan didn't know he had another sharingan so it wasn't part of her calculations when she prepared to fight him. not that she would have known about izanagi, but someone like itachi would have known and probably prepared for it, if they ever had to fight. it's like an ace up his sleeve.

i assume he just sacrificed another normal sharingan and replaced it with one from his wall of eyes. this just adds to my previous thought that itachi didn't know he had a second eye there and didn't prepare for it when he placed amaterasu inside sasuke to kill tobi. tobi says at that time: "even itachi didn't know everything about me"
Hmm guess i never thought about it that way. Thanks for the "enlightenment". Never crossed my mind that Tobi collected some sharingans like Danzo did.
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Old 2012-07-23, 20:46   Link #129
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i assume he just sacrificed another normal sharingan and replaced it with one from his wall of eyes. this just adds to my previous thought that itachi didn't know he had a second eye there and didn't prepare for it when he placed amaterasu inside sasuke to kill tobi. tobi says at that time: "even itachi didn't know everything about me"
It is very possible but still there is a good chance what he used against Itachi's amatersu wasn't really Inazagi. Also i am a bit confused on how Inazagi works. If you can use it after getting hit then why danzou couldn't use Inazagi after he was hit by Sasku's final attack?

I think there is more to what Tobi can do than we know. Itachi probably knew about both him having more than one eye implanted ( as he knew that is possible) and being able to use Inazagi. He probably either didn't know about all of Tobi's secretes or that was the only thing he could do and hoped it would work. He probably knew there is a chance that his plan would not work and that is why he gave the second eye to naruto for if and when he had to fight vs Sasuke.

Itachi was a cautious Ninja imo. He never really underestimated any one and he always said all jutus have a counter and weakness. He knew that and thus implanted a few things. He probably knew he could have failed and there was a chance for Sasuke to go rogue. Thus he gave the Sharingan to Naruto.

There is a possibility that Itachi didn't know about the extra eyes but imo he probably knew. I am personally very curious to figure out how he avoided Itachi's amaterasu too and i hope Kishi doesn't leave it to just speculations.

Also there is the perfect vs imperfect versions of Inazagi. Tobi said what dazou used was not the perfect form and what he used was. But was it ever explained what is the difference between the two? Maybe ( my opinion/speculation) maybe the perfect Inazagi can be used at any time ( unlike danzou's Inazagi) . There is probably more to it .
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Old 2012-07-24, 13:13   Link #130
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It is very possible but still there is a good chance what he used against Itachi's amatersu wasn't really Inazagi. Also i am a bit confused on how Inazagi works. If you can use it after getting hit then why danzou couldn't use Inazagi after he was hit by Sasku's final attack?

Also there is the perfect vs imperfect versions of Inazagi. Tobi said what dazou used was not the perfect form and what he used was. But was it ever explained what is the difference between the two? Maybe ( my opinion/speculation) maybe the perfect Inazagi can be used at any time ( unlike danzou's Inazagi) . There is probably more to it .
I think when Dazno was killed by Sasuke's final attack he was out of Sharingans to Sacrifice for Izanagi. I really didn't like that fight because i thought it was kind of stupid so i never re-read it, danzo would just never dodge Sasuke's attacks. To use Izanagi u have to have Uchiha and Senju DNA, so some part of Tobi's body must have that just like Madara and Danzo did.

I think the problem with Danzo's Izanagi is that he had a time frame to use each eye. Remember the eyes would close even if he wasn't hit? It would go on for like 2 or 3 minutes before the eye would close regardless if he was hit or not. It wasn't explained, but i think thats it, and idk how else Tobi could have avoided the Amaterasu without using Izanagi, he was hit by it, and that fire never goes out, so he must have used it.
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Old 2012-07-24, 13:40   Link #131
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I think it's safe to say tobi used izanagi when sasuke hit him with amaterasu. his mask even came off, allowing him access to his hidden eye. it was a foreshadowing to the izanagi technique which tobi himself uses later in the story
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Old 2012-07-24, 13:54   Link #132
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I think it's safe to say tobi used izanagi when sasuke hit him with amaterasu. his mask even came off, allowing him access to his hidden eye. it was a foreshadowing to the izanagi technique which tobi himself uses later in the story
It was explained in the Sasuke vs Danzou fight that the izanagi must be started before the attack, but there is no way that Tobi expected an amaterasu attack from Sasuke. And nobody wastes sharingan eyes for nothing, especially if he can dodge attacks by becoming a ghost with no cost. Also Tobi explains that he survived because he didn't tell his secrets to Itachi, but we know that Itachi did know about izanagi and izanami, so it can't be that Tobi used izanagi.



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Personally my new pet theory is that Tobi is some kind of Zetsu offset, a mish mash of the personalities of dead shinobi that Zetsu ate. Hence his ridiculous amount of knowledge spanning generations, his weird body, his personality all over the place, the fact that he call himself No one and his desire to end individuality.
That would be probably better than what the author will choose I'm afraid this theory is too abstract for this type of manga.
It's interesting how similar this would be to what we know of Orochimaru's immortality jutsu: in orochi's mind-world there are the souls of his past victims and the only difference between them and Orochi is that Orochi took control, except in Sasuke's case where Orochi's mind was sealed. But if all these souls were mixed together in one then we could get a "mish mash of personalities". Also Orochi coming out of a cursed seal can be similar to how Tobi's body was created, in the sense that a living person can be created that does not fade away as a normal kage bunshin would ( or the mind-bunshin of Kushina and Minato, which did fade away like a kage bunshin as it's chakra was consumed).

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Old 2012-07-24, 14:56   Link #133
itachi-san314
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It was explained in the Sasuke vs Danzou fight that the izanagi must be started before the attack, but there is no way that Tobi expected an amaterasu attack from Sasuke. And nobody wastes sharingan eyes for nothing, especially if he can dodge attacks by becoming a ghost with no cost. Also Tobi explains that he survived because he didn't tell his secrets to Itachi, but we know that Itachi did know about izanagi and izanami, so it can't be that Tobi used izanagi.
you could be right, but that's assuming kishi had fully planned out izanagi and izanami at that time. basically what tobi did was undo reality. if he could quickly switch out body parts or something like that then why would he wait so long to replace his arm when sasuke fought danzo? or why not come right back at minato after losing some body parts during the kyuubi attack? it only took him seconds to get back to sasuke after that amaterasu attack similar to how fast izanagi worked

given izanagi and izanami's horrible explanations when we were made aware of their existence, I'm not so sure kishi planned them out well from so long ago. they're one of the few things i dislike about the story on the whole. but i could be totally wrong about this for sure. it just seems like a precursor moment for the sharingan being able to undo reality
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Old 2012-07-24, 15:30   Link #134
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you could be right, but that's assuming kishi had fully planned out izanagi and izanami at that time. basically what tobi did was undo reality. if he could quickly switch out body parts or something like that then why would he wait so long to replace his arm when sasuke fought danzo? or why not come right back at minato after losing some body parts during the kyuubi attack? it only took him seconds to get back to sasuke after that amaterasu attack similar to how fast izanagi worked

given izanagi and izanami's horrible explanations when we were made aware of their existence, I'm not so sure kishi planned them out well from so long ago. they're one of the few things i dislike about the story on the whole. but i could be totally wrong about this for sure. it just seems like a precursor moment for the sharingan being able to undo reality
The Uchiha are overpowered -_-
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Old 2012-07-24, 21:10   Link #135
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Hmm guess i never thought about it that way. Thanks for the "enlightenment". Never crossed my mind that Tobi collected some sharingans like Danzo did.
Danzou was an amateur in this department, check chapter 482 page 13. Tobi has litteraly more than a hundred of Sharingan.

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That would be probably better than what the author will choose I'm afraid this theory is too abstract for this type of manga.
Well it's a pet theory, not one I find particulary likely to be true.
Something less abstract is simply Tobi being Izuna.
  • It explains his physical response chap 399 to his story about Izuna's sacrifice and his extended knowledge of the era.
  • His Zetsu body can be explained by the damage he suffered during his supposed death which in turn explains his extended life.
  • His claim that Nagato's eyes were originally his own (a claim he made to Konan whom he had no reason to lie and to Kabuto who already knew that Madara wasn't his real identity) would be entirely correct since Madara's EMS was originally Izuna's.
  • It also explains why the Kyubi recognized him when he summoned him to attack Konoha if he had been helping Madara from the start.
  • The resemblance between his space/time jutsu and Kakashi's could be easily explained by the fact that Obito was one of his descendant.
  • Their Sharingan is what define the Uchiha, to have lost his eyes and going through life with the eyes taken from dead kinsmen could be what gave birth to his bleak ideology of being no one and the death of the self.
  • His vendetta against the Uchiha stems from the fact that the clan turned his back on his brother after he sacrified his sight for their sake.

The only piece lacking in this theory is Tobi's knowledge of Konoha's finests (which this chapter is only the lastest example). He doesn't only know stuff about Kakashi and Gai, he seems to know everything about Konoha.
He immediately recognized the secret jutsu from Danzou's bodyguards to the point he knew who was behind the mask and the name of the man who had originally created the technique he used. He knew of Minato's teleporting seal, how it worked and that there was one on Kushina's belly, he knew how to bypass the security of Konoha's barrier and the ones of the Uchiha's secret room. He knew all about Itachi's secret mission and his intention toward Sasuke and he knew about the relation between Danzou and Orochimaru.
It's in fact really hard to think of something he's not aware of.
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Old 2012-07-24, 22:39   Link #136
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^ I think your post here is great and all your points make sense. i'd just add one more piece that doesn't quite fit in with izuna and has been happening for a while. tobi never tries to take kakashi's MS. why would izuna not want that? I could see how obito or obito's dad (or Rin, but that's a dumb theory imo) would not want to take it, but izuna should have wanted it for his collection and tobi has had many opportunities to get it

edit: also on ch577 p7 madara speaks of izuna as pretty much useless except for his eyes and says he's dead. granted that could be a red herring, but i think that if tobi was izuna, madara wouldn't have said that. could just be a nonsense line though like how itachi said he wasn;t going to speak to sasuke and then they had about 100 (slight exaggeration =/ ) chapters together...
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Old 2012-07-24, 22:53   Link #137
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I think when Dazno was killed by Sasuke's final attack he was out of Sharingans to Sacrifice for Izanagi. I really didn't like that fight because i thought it was kind of stupid so i never re-read it, danzo would just never dodge Sasuke's attacks. To use Izanagi u have to have Uchiha and Senju DNA, so some part of Tobi's body must have that just like Madara and Danzo did.

I think the problem with Danzo's Izanagi is that he had a time frame to use each eye. Remember the eyes would close even if he wasn't hit? It would go on for like 2 or 3 minutes before the eye would close regardless if he was hit or not. It wasn't explained, but i think thats it, and idk how else Tobi could have avoided the Amaterasu without using Izanagi, he was hit by it, and that fire never goes out, so he must have used it.
Danzo still had Shisui's eyes. I still stand by my opinion/statement that there is more to Izanagi than we know or maybe Kishi just was a bit not consistent with his explanation of it. And yes there was a time frame for the eyes to be closed as you stated ( i think it was 1 minute per eye).

Also He had to turn the spell on and maintain it or he couldn't use it and it required a lot of chakra to maintain the spell.

See when Itachi's Amaterasu's hit Tobi, he didn't use the seal/jutsu to turn on the Izanagi. Danzo had to to cast a seal/jutsu to turn it on and then use it. If Danzo wasn't in the seal/justus mode he couldn't use it.

This is why i am saying there is a chance there is more to what Tobi can and can not do that we might not know yet.


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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I think it's safe to say tobi used izanagi when sasuke hit him with amaterasu. his mask even came off, allowing him access to his hidden eye. it was a foreshadowing to the izanagi technique which tobi himself uses later in the story
Well there was never stated that if you can use Izanagi without using the seal/jutsu like danzou did. We were never shown him using any jutsu/seal to use the Izanagi. If we go by how Danzou used the spell then we either should assume that the seal he used to use Izanagi was just not shown or there is more to Tobi's powers.

Tobi also states that he was lucky to avoid the attack because he kept some secretes from Itachi ( i think this is related to how Itachi's amaterasu didn't work). i think it is fair to say that Itachi knew about Izanagi so maybe the secrete he was talking about wasn't Izanagi.

Just my opinion . please tell me if i missed anything. It's been a long time since i read the manga too.
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Old 2012-07-24, 23:49   Link #138
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This is why i am saying there is a chance there is more to what Tobi can and can not do that we might not know yet.
well, this is definitely true no matter what

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Well there was never stated that if you can use Izanagi without using the seal/jutsu like danzou did. We were never shown him using any jutsu/seal to use the Izanagi. If we go by how Danzou used the spell then we either should assume that the seal he used to use Izanagi was just not shown or there is more to Tobi's powers.
when tobi used izanagi vs konan he was never shown to use hand seals. all he did was take off his mask so he could use his hidden eye, like he did before sasuke hit him with amaterasu. I'm not sure what the anime did, but the canon manga material didn't have him use any seals. perhaps that is part of what makes his izanagi better than danzo's? its ch 510 if you want to check

not having to use hand seals for izanagi would be a huge tactical advantage, since as we saw with danzo, sasuke and karin set him up based partly on when it was clear that he undid and redid the technique with seals

Quote:
Tobi also states that he was lucky to avoid the attack because he kept some secretes from Itachi ( i think this is related to how Itachi's amaterasu didn't work). i think it is fair to say that Itachi knew about Izanagi so maybe the secrete he was talking about wasn't Izanagi.
i agree that itachi knew about izanagi and izanami. i think he didnt know tobi had another eye behind his mask or that tobi knew izanagi or was capable of it since it requires both senju and uchiha blood. like i said, i could be wrong and tobi could be doing something entirely different to avoid death by amaterasu, but what we have already in the manga i think is enough to feel satisfied if we dont get a further explanation of what happened there. and if we dont, then it was definitely izanagi
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Old 2012-07-25, 00:14   Link #139
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The Chapter 595 thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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Old 2012-07-25, 03:18   Link #140
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Danzou was an amateur in this department, check chapter 482 page 13. Tobi has litteraly more than a hundred of Sharingan.


Well it's a pet theory, not one I find particulary likely to be true.
Something less abstract is simply Tobi being Izuna.
  • It explains his physical response chap 399 to his story about Izuna's sacrifice and his extended knowledge of the era.
  • His Zetsu body can be explained by the damage he suffered during his supposed death which in turn explains his extended life.
  • His claim that Nagato's eyes were originally his own (a claim he made to Konan whom he had no reason to lie and to Kabuto who already knew that Madara wasn't his real identity) would be entirely correct since Madara's EMS was originally Izuna's.
  • It also explains why the Kyubi recognized him when he summoned him to attack Konoha if he had been helping Madara from the start.
  • The resemblance between his space/time jutsu and Kakashi's could be easily explained by the fact that Obito was one of his descendant.
  • Their Sharingan is what define the Uchiha, to have lost his eyes and going through life with the eyes taken from dead kinsmen could be what gave birth to his bleak ideology of being no one and the death of the self.
  • His vendetta against the Uchiha stems from the fact that the clan turned his back on his brother after he sacrified his sight for their sake.

The only piece lacking in this theory is Tobi's knowledge of Konoha's finests (which this chapter is only the lastest example). He doesn't only know stuff about Kakashi and Gai, he seems to know everything about Konoha.
He immediately recognized the secret jutsu from Danzou's bodyguards to the point he knew who was behind the mask and the name of the man who had originally created the technique he used. He knew of Minato's teleporting seal, how it worked and that there was one on Kushina's belly, he knew how to bypass the security of Konoha's barrier and the ones of the Uchiha's secret room. He knew all about Itachi's secret mission and his intention toward Sasuke and he knew about the relation between Danzou and Orochimaru.
It's in fact really hard to think of something he's not aware of.
I thought of a theory (probably thought of before me im just unaware) that if Tobi is Izuna forged with Zetsu's body to make him live longer, what if Izuna is the reanimation jutsu Kabuto used (sorry i can't remember the name atm). Madara used it to revive his brother to carry out his plan, and since it has to be released or sealed, he was able to live. It would also explain why Tobi was scared of Kabuto reviving Madara but this theory got hurt when madara countered the release by Itachi.
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